Analyzing Dubas's performance II - (Full Analysis)

[The CyNick]

Do you not understand that if it wasn't for Dubas making the presentation to Tavares the way he did, because he saw how Lamoriello failed. So I'm willing to bet if Lou was still the Leafs GM there is no way Tavares signs in Toronto. The best evidence to support that is the fact Tavares did not re-sign with the Islanders after they hired Lamoriello to be their President of Hockey Operations and GM. Plus the fact he had a head start with that exclusive window to negotiate with him before Tavares could speak with other teams.

I would take what Dubas said himself was different between the two presentations. He said with Stamkos the team which he was part of, tried to sell Stamkos on the future and what players 'could' become. This was tough coming off a 30th place finish. All Dubas' words. He went on to say with JT the difference was they could say here's what our core actually is, because that were already in the league.

Then the only thing JT pointed to about the presentation itself was how Babs talked about how he would fit into the team. And also talked about his happiness to play for Babs again.

How you equate that with Dubas getting credit is beyond me.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I would take what Dubas said himself was different between the two presentations. He said with Stamkos the team which he was part of, tried to sell Stamkos on the future and what players 'could' become. This was tough coming off a 30th place finish. All Dubas' words. He went on to say with JT the difference was they could say here's what our core actually is, because that were already in the league.

Then the only thing JT pointed to about the presentation itself was how Babs talked about how he would fit into the team. And also talked about his happiness to play for Babs again.

How you equate that with Dubas getting credit is beyond me.

Whatever happened with failing to sign Stamkos the failure is 100% on Lamoriello. So don't start putting Dubas responsible for that since he wasn't the GM at the time. All he did was learn from Lou's mistakes when they meet with Tavares.

 

[LeafsNation75]

That’s a fun conspiracy theory but let’s break it down.

Let’s say Stamkos didn’t like what Tampa was originally offering and decided to pull a little Toronto song and dance to drive up the price.

He goes through the motions, hears the Toronto presentation, gets offered the highest salary in the league...

...Then he chooses to sign Tampa’s original deal?

Now that would be the definition of a stupid narrative.

Not only that but I believe the deal Stamkos eventually signed was first offered to him in November of 2015.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Barzal will be interesting.

Dubas gave AM 11.634M x 5 for putting up 205 points in his first three full seasons. Barzal has up 207, so we know what Dubas would pay him. Let's see what Lou thinks he's worth.

Isles will be fine. Finished ahead of us this year. Sad.

Geez, the Malgin trade is so far down the list of bad Dubas moves it doesn't even register.

I'm a results oriented person. Dubas inherited a team coming off a franchise setting regular season. Since then it's been a disaster given the talent he has been gifted.

I would have never promoted him, but given the short leash they gave Lou and Babs, you would think a 1st round exit would be the end of Dubas. At the very least, he should be on thin ice with next year being do or die.

how is the Malgin deal a bad move? He traded a 25 year old player with 4 NHL games to his resume who couldn't keep up and is likely a career AHLer for a 23 yr old who has has 192 games in the NHL to his resume and still has upside. I like Marchment but he wasn't good enough and if Malgin doesn't work out, it's not a big deal. At least he got an NHL contributor out if it. It was a worth while gamble if Malgin becomes a 40-50 pt player and a cheap replacement for someone like Johnsson.

Barzal will be interesting.

Dubas gave AM 11.634M x 5 for putting up 205 points in his first three full seasons. Barzal has up 207, so we know what Dubas would pay him. Let's see what Lou thinks he's worth.

Isles will be fine. Finished ahead of us this year. Sad.

If Lou gave a guy who averages about 40-50pts a year in Lee 7M what do you think he values a star player in Barzal who has averaged around 70pts at?
The Isles are not fine. They have a roster littered with overpaid players that are pretty much immovable and have very little cap space to sign their young players on the rise.

 

[LeafsNation75]

If Lou gave a guy who averages about 40-50pts a year in Lee 7M what do you think he values a star player in Barzal who has averaged around 70pts at?
The Isles are not fine. They have a roster littered with overpaid players that are pretty much immovable and have very little cap space to sign their young players on the rise.

But Barzal had more points in his rookie season than Matthews and that same year lead the lead the Islanders in points, even though a specific person on this site never mentions it was by 1 single point over Tavares.

Seriously though the best example of Lou overpaying for anyone is when he gave Patrick Marleau 3 years and $6.25 million AAV when he was 37 years old, along with a NMC.

 

[LeafsNation75]

So you think he didn't know Toronto is a fish bowl market? And then once he saw the Mayor and some random guy in a Canadian Tire shirt, he went running back to Tampa?

So try to explain how on the same day when it was reported that Stamkos meet with Lou Lamoriello and the Maple Leafs managment team, he ends up re-signing later with Tampa.

 

[Stephen]

So you think he didn't know Toronto is a fish bowl market? And then once he saw the Mayor and some random guy in a Canadian Tire shirt, he went running back to Tampa?

That's literally what happened, so why am I going to waste my energy trying to come up with alternative theories?

 

[LeafsNation75]

That's literally what happened, so why am I going to waste my energy trying to come up with alternative theories?

Your talking to someone who claimed Roman Polak is better than Jake Muzzin and think Kyle Dubas deserves no credit for signing John Tavares because he planned all along to sign in Toronto no matter what.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

how is the Malgin deal a bad move? He traded a 25 year old player with 4 NHL games to his resume who couldn't keep up and is likely a career AHLer for a 23 yr old who has has 192 games in the NHL to his resume and still has upside. I like Marchment but he wasn't good enough and if Malgin doesn't work out, it's not a big deal. At least he got an NHL contributor out if it. It was a worth while gamble if Malgin becomes a 40-50 pt player and a cheap replacement for someone like Johnsson.

If Lou gave a guy who averages about 40-50pts a year in Lee 7M what do you think he values a star player in Barzal who has averaged around 70pts at?
The Isles are not fine. They have a roster littered with overpaid players that are pretty much immovable and have very little cap space to sign their young players on the rise.

I hope Malgin is willing to stick around for a Petan-like deal with us. We can afford to pay him on a one-way contract for two years and he can be a prime call-up. If we trade Johnsson, both him and Petan may even have a chance to crack the Leafs roster next year. At the very least he will good for the Marlies like Petan was. The main thing that would work in Petan and Malgin's favour would be if they can learn to PK. They have the IQ and are committed in their own end, and they can threaten those PP's with a counter attack similar to Marner.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I hope Malgin is willing to stick around for a Petan-like deal with us. We can afford to pay him on a one-way contract for two years and he can be a prime call-up. If we trade Johnsson, both him and Petan may even have a chance to crack the Leafs roster next year. At the very least he will good for the Marlies like Petan was. The main thing that would work in Petan and Malgin's favour would be if they can learn to PK. They have the IQ and are committed in their own end, and they can threaten those PP's with a counter attack similar to Marner.

Once the 2019-20 season is finished Malgin is supposed to be an RFA and his current contract is only paying him $750,000 AAV.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

What did Dubas do now! I bet he bought Mikheyev the wrong colour socks even. Fire the guy “he socks”.

 

[Kiwi]

But Barzal had more points in his rookie season than Matthews and that same year lead the lead the Islanders in points, even though a specific person on this site never mentions it was by 1 single point over Tavares.

Seriously though the best example of Lou overpaying for anyone is when he gave Patrick Marleau 3 years and $6.25 million AAV when he was 37 years old, along with a NMC.

I think Babcock pushed to bring Marleau in as well

God damn that was stupid and anybody involved in that "plan" deserved they're firings

 

[LeafsNation75]

I think Babcock pushed to bring Marleau in as well

God damn that was stupid and anybody involved in that "plan" deserved they're firings

That's something I have thought myself because why would Lou Lamoriello who was known to be a hard ass and had this attitude of it's he's way or nothing cave into Marleau's demands of a 3 year contract, since San Jose was only offering him a 2 year contract.

 

[Leaf Fans]

I would take what Dubas said himself was different between the two presentations. He said with Stamkos the team which he was part of, tried to sell Stamkos on the future and what players 'could' become. This was tough coming off a 30th place finish. All Dubas' words. He went on to say with JT the difference was they could say here's what our core actually is, because that were already in the league.

Then the only thing JT pointed to about the presentation itself was how Babs talked about how he would fit into the team. And also talked about his happiness to play for Babs again.

How you equate that with Dubas getting credit is beyond me.

Clearly, it is beyond you. Dubas signed him.

 

[The CyNick]

Whatever happened with failing to sign Stamkos the failure is 100% on Lamoriello. So don't start putting Dubas responsible for that since he wasn't the GM at the time. All he did was learn from Lou's mistakes when they meet with Tavares.

Maybe they did. But all Dubas talked about was with Stamkos they talked about what was to come whereas with Tavares they changed it to hers what we are and them Babcock showed him how he would fit in on the ice. The difference was more about the fact that Auston had played, Marner had played, and the other guys were a couple years older. That's just a function of time. Them Tavares himself said Mike was very impressive. So in John's own words, he credited what Babs said, never said anything about Dubas' portion of the pitch.

And further to that John was asked if he reached out to Steven, and John mentioned that Stamkos was in a different place. Seemingly indicating Stamkos was more married to Tampa than John was to the Island.

There's this notion that the Leafs overwhelmed Stamkos with the off the rink opportunities, but to me that makes it seem like Stamkos is so fragile that he couldn't handle seeing what outside financial opportunities would be available to him. He knew all of that going in.

 

[The CyNick]

how is the Malgin deal a bad move? He traded a 25 year old player with 4 NHL games to his resume who couldn't keep up and is likely a career AHLer for a 23 yr old who has has 192 games in the NHL to his resume and still has upside. I like Marchment but he wasn't good enough and if Malgin doesn't work out, it's not a big deal. At least he got an NHL contributor out if it. It was a worth while gamble if Malgin becomes a 40-50 pt player and a cheap replacement for someone like Johnsson.

If Lou gave a guy who averages about 40-50pts a year in Lee 7M what do you think he values a star player in Barzal who has averaged around 70pts at?
The Isles are not fine. They have a roster littered with overpaid players that are pretty much immovable and have very little cap space to sign their young players on the rise.

No cap space sounds very familiar. They are ahead of us and have had a deeper playoff run.

I have no clue what Lou will pay Barzal. I just don't think he'll give $11.6M x 5 like Dubas did with Maathews. But I could be wrong. Time will tell.

 

[The CyNick]

Clearly, it is beyond you. Dubas signed him.

Nobody is disputing that. The debate is what role did Dubas play in the signing.

Some signings a GM has to work hard to sell the player on the team or market. None of the statements from John indicate that Dubas had to fight to sign him. He wanted to either stay in the island or play for his boyhood team where his family and his girl's family is located. It also sounds like Babs individually played the greatest role among Leafs managment, since John called him out by name.

 

[The CyNick]

I think Babcock pushed to bring Marleau in as well

God damn that was stupid and anybody involved in that "plan" deserved they're firings

It was a good plan. Helped make the younger guys good pros on the ice. It's no coincidence that the summer they let him go Matthews is running around like a moron with his pants off. There was a lot of accountability removed from that room. The team has yet to recover from that.

If Lou was GM, the savings from the big three signings would have easily covered Marleau's final year. As was proven by the lack of heart in this team, his leadership was still required another year.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Once the 2019-20 season is finished Malgin is supposed to be an RFA and his current contract is only paying him $750,000 AAV.

Yes, but what does that have to do with him wanting to re-sign with us? The Leafs would almost certainly be willing to give him another deal for similar money, even if they don't plan on giving him a guaranteed NHL job. It's mostly a matter of whether Malgin wants to stay in North America or go home.

 

[The CyNick]

That's literally what happened, so why am I going to waste my energy trying to come up with alternative theories?

So you talked to Steven and you know it was the Canadian Tire guy that scared him away? It's amazing that people believe this.

 

[LeafsNation75]

So you talked to Steven and you know it was the Canadian Tire guy that scared him away? It's amazing that people believe this.

In that story written on Sportsnet by Elliotte Friedman about how they signed Tavares, why did he bother to mention how they screwed up with Stamkos and how else did he know all that information since he obviously wasn't in the room during their meeting with him.

 

[Stephen]

So you talked to Steven and you know it was the Canadian Tire guy that scared him away? It's amazing that people believe this.

Thats a lot more plausible scenario that what you’re implying, which if I were sum up would read as follows:

“Steven Stamkos wastes his own time to attend a business meeting with people he has no interest in from the beginning, in order to establish zero improvement in leverage, bargaining power and financial terms.”

I understand you’re trying to discredit management’s efforts, and all the power to you - but this is a stretch.

 

[LeafChief]

There are so many people that hate the Leafs that continue to post here and engulf themselves in all things Leafs.

 

[The CyNick]

In that story written on Sportsnet by Elliotte Friedman about how they signed Tavares, why did he bother to mention how they screwed up with Stamkos and how else did he know all that information since he obviously wasn't in the room during their meeting with him.

I believe the whole Canadian Tire guy pitch scared him from signing here was started by Simmons. Elliotte may have run with the idea as fact. But it's all speculation, no matter who originated it.

To believe it, you have to assume that Stamkos is such an introvert that the very idea of doing promotional work scared him back to Tampa. Even though he's done plenty of promotional work for companies like Gatorade. You have to also assume despite growing up in the GTA and cheering for the Leafs, that he somehow didn't know putting on the blue and white puts you in the spotlight in Toronto.

Is it not more logical that he liked living in Tampa? That he thought a team with a young core that he went to the Finals with had multiple chances to go back there? Is it possible he felt the Tampa hockey community was passionate and he enjoyed playing for them? Is it possible he felt he had unfinished business with the Lightning? Note he is quoted as saying all those things I just posted as reasons for staying.

There isn't one quote I've come across that would indicate he was seriously thinking about landing anywhere else, much less that some corporate execs scared him from going to Toronto. Feel free to post anything I may have missed.

But if you think Steve Simmons is the go to source for this type of info, by all means, believe what you will.

 

[Blue Nate]

It was a good plan. Helped make the younger guys good pros on the ice. It's no coincidence that the summer they let him go Matthews is running around like a moron with his pants off. There was a lot of accountability removed from that room. The team has yet to recover from that.

If Lou was GM, the savings from the big three signings would have easily covered Marleau's final year. As was proven by the lack of heart in this team, his leadership was still required another year.

You couldn't possibly know that. Lou has a history of signing bad contracts as well, but I will agree that he most likely would have saved a few million per year. (.5 NY, 1 matty, 1.5 mitch)

Also I seem to remember John being very impressed with Dubas' presentation specifically and saying that it stuck with him afterward.