Prospect Info: Analysis of Taylor Hall Trade/Return Assets

StevenToddIves

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May 18, 2013
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Many of you have been writing me to ask my thoughts on the Taylor Hall trade and prospect return, so I thought I would take an hour to weigh in. I would rate the Devils Taylor Hall-haul in the B-/C+ range.

There are two major reasons to be upset. One: if the Devils retained salary (which Arizona desperately needed to get the deal done), how was Shero unable to get one of Arizona's top two prospects (Barrett Hayton/Viktor Soderstrom)? It seems that Shero, who was too patient with the firing of John Hynes, was too impatient with getting rid of the Taylor Hall headache. I would be happier with the lack of one of Hayton/Soderstrom if the Devils were able to get the Arizona 2021 first-round pick in addition to the 2020 first-rounder -- no conditions attached. But again Shero conceded with the conditions applied to the 2021 draft pick and, even moreso, by having the 2020 pick top-3 lottery protected. How did Shero agree to this? He couldn't have said "no conditions, no deal"? Arizona should have been more desperate to acquire Hall than the Devils were to give him up -- after all, the trade deadline is not for over two months.

However, there are also reasons to be excited. Foremost -- and let's not make any mistake about this -- Taylor Hall was absolutely not re-signing with the Devils as an unrestricted free agent in the 2020 offseason. Hall -- as his his right (so let's not hate the guy for this) -- has one huge opportunity in the prime of his career to cash in and choose his destiny. There's going to be a bidding war for Hall's services in the off-season, and this is precisely what he wants. So, the Devils went out and got more in return for a half-season of Taylor Hall than they gave up for multiple seasons of Taylor Hall -- including the only MVP season in the history of the New Jersey franchise. So, ultimately, the Taylor Hall saga in the Garden State absolutely must be considered a huge victory.

So, what did the Devils receive? Well, the best asset is certainly the Arizona 2020 first-rounder, even if it is top-three protected. The fact is that, even with Taylor Hall, the Coyotes are far from a lock for the playoffs. The media can crow all day that they're a first-place team, but Arizona is mere percentage points ahead of Edmonton and literally one win separates them from 4th place in the Pacific Division, which is clearly the weakest division in the NHL. Largely responsible for this has been otherworldly goaltending by Darcy Kuemper and a tremendous coaching job/system under Head Coach Rick Tocchet. Is this sustainable? Maybe, maybe not -- I'm not Nostradamus. However, the Arizona first-rounder, in my mind, has as good a chance of winding up in the 10-15 range as it does of falling in the 20-25 range. Had the Devils made a Hall deal with Colorado or St. Louis, the pick would have an astronomically larger chance of winding up in the 25-31 range -- we're talking about actual contenders with those franchises.

The second-best asset the Devils received was enormous Ottawa 67's LD Kevin Bahl. At 6'7-230, he combines very fluid skating (especially for a player of his immense size) and a good, if unspectacular, skill-set with the puck. In my mind, this kid's upside is Colton Parayko-sans-cannon-shot and his downside is a steady, defensive presence with size for your bottom four. That's a covetable prospect.

C/W Nick Merkley is the wild card in this deal. Not the most athletic kid in the world -- he has average skates/shooting/hands and average size at 5'11/190 -- Merkley relies on savvy and smarts to separate himself from the pack. He's a high-energy, hard-worker who is loved by his teammates. While his development has taken some time, I think Merkley has the upside to be a pass-first, do-it-all mid-6 F who can play on the 2nd PP and put up 15-35-50 scoring lines at the NHL level. At the very least, his energy and hockey IQ make him a good bet to be a fan-favorite bottom 6 F with the versatility to play either wing.

The final assets are the conditional 2021 Arizona pick (3rd rounder, 2nd rounder if either the Coyotes re-sign Hall or win a playoff round in 2020 -- neither of which are likely, in my estimation -- and 1st rounder in the unbelievable even that both events occur) and C Nate Schnarr. Again, I was nonplussed that -- even after retaining salary and not getting a top-2 Coyotes prospect -- the Devils had to make so many concessions on the 2021 pick. It should have, at the very least, been a guaranteed 2nd rounder with the condition of being a 1st rounder if EITHER of those two events occurred. As for Schnarr? He's a defensive-oriented center with very good size who projects to be a bottom 6 guy. Though I like to root for these kids, I don't get particularly excited about acquiring them in trades. I will say that the Devils system is not exactly flush with checking line centers with size, so the kid fills a need.

Ultimately, I don't dislike the deal for the Devils but I'm left somehow underwhelmed. Had the Devils got Hayton or Soderstrom, I'd be happier. Had the Devils replaced Schnarr with another Arizona #3-#5 prospect (Jan Jenik/ John Farinacci), I'd be happier. Had the Devils held out for better conditions on the 2021 pick, I'd be happier. Had the Devils gotten a 2020 first-rounder which was not lottery protected, I'd be happier. But to me, this is a shade better than the package Vegas received in return for Mark Stone last year in a comparable deal (though I would rank Brannstrom a shade above Bahl, Markley evens that out while the Devils received a 1st rounder as opposed to Ottawa receiving a 2nd) -- so it's tough to cry about. And again -- ultimately and most importantly -- the Devils ultimately win the Taylor Hall scenario. Keep in mind all it took to get him was Adam Larsson, straight up.
 
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Triumph

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Teams do not give up prospects like Hayton or Soderstrom in rental deals anymore. It is very, very rare. Even in the maligned Forsberg-Erat deal, Erat was signed for an additional season. Any expectation that the Devils would get Hayton or Soderstrom or an equivalent prospect should've been out the window. Brannstrom got sent out for Stone, but that was a signed Stone - that deal was not a rental, Vegas had talked to Stone and they had very high confidence he would sign a deal.

Arizona is 82% to make the playoffs right now according to Micah Blake McC.urdy and that's without adjusting for the addition of Hall. The odds of that pick ending up top 3 are very, very, very low right now - there's no sense in fighting over that. If the deal was made in 2 months, the pick wouldn't be protected but it wouldn't matter.
 

Darkauron

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Teams do not give up prospects like Hayton or Soderstrom in rental deals anymore. It is very, very rare. Even in the maligned Forsberg-Erat deal, Erat was signed for an additional season. Any expectation that the Devils would get Hayton or Soderstrom or an equivalent prospect should've been out the window. Brannstrom got sent out for Stone, but that was a signed Stone - that deal was not a rental, Vegas had talked to Stone and they had very high confidence he would sign a deal.

Arizona is 82% to make the playoffs right now according to Micah Blake McC.urdy and that's without adjusting for the addition of Hall. The odds of that pick ending up top 3 are very, very, very low right now - there's no sense in fighting over that. If the deal was made in 2 months, the pick wouldn't be protected but it wouldn't matter.

Yeah exactly. If Hall was signed for at least a year or something, we would have gotten a lot more.

For what it is, the trade is solid.
 
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StevenToddIves

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thanks man much appreciated. back to hibernation for you!

Well, I should probably add that the Devils are likely not done dealing away players for futures this year.

SURELY TRADED BY DEADLINE: Simmonds, Vatanen

SOLID POSSIBILITY OF BEING DEALT: Severson, Wood, Mueller

NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO SEE THEM DEALT: Greene, Zajac, Subban
 
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Darkauron

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Id prefer to Sign vats, but if he doesnt want to resign then im okay with trading him. I really dont see anyone wanting greene, and he may not even want to leave jersey at this point of his career.
 

StevenToddIves

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Teams do not give up prospects like Hayton or Soderstrom in rental deals anymore. It is very, very rare. Even in the maligned Forsberg-Erat deal, Erat was signed for an additional season. Any expectation that the Devils would get Hayton or Soderstrom or an equivalent prospect should've been out the window. Brannstrom got sent out for Stone, but that was a signed Stone - that deal was not a rental, Vegas had talked to Stone and they had very high confidence he would sign a deal.

Arizona is 82% to make the playoffs right now according to Micah Blake McC.urdy and that's without adjusting for the addition of Hall. The odds of that pick ending up top 3 are very, very, very low right now - there's no sense in fighting over that. If the deal was made in 2 months, the pick wouldn't be protected but it wouldn't matter.

I would have to say that saying Arizona is an 82% chance of the playoffs is some sort of mystical fantasy. To wit, we can say that right now they are 2 points, or one win, ahead of Calgary. But was Arizona's addition of Taylor Hall more significant than Calgary's subtraction of disastrous Head Coaching abomination Bill Peters? The Flames are 6-1 since dumping Peters, and I would say they are a better than 82% bet to finish ahead of a less talented Coyotes squad in the Pacific Division. Or how about Nashville? Sure, they're 7 points behind Arizona in the Western Conference standings, but they have 3 games in hand and an extremely talented team. I don't have any idea who Micah Blake McCurdy is, but I would like to see what his odds were of the eventual Stanley Cup Champion St. Louis Blues making the playoffs were last season. These analytic algorithms to me are just voodoo.

I agree that Hayton and Soderstrom were far from guaranteed acquisitions for Taylor Hall. And I do not think Soderstrom is significantly superior as a prospect than Kevin Bahl. My point was simply that Shero made too many concessions (money, draft pick conditions, prospect quality, prospect depth) considering that Arizona needed Hall more on the day of the trade than the Devils needed to move Hall on the day of the trade.
 

StevenToddIves

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Id prefer to Sign vats, but if he doesnt want to resign then im okay with trading him. I really dont see anyone wanting greene, and he may not even want to leave jersey at this point of his career.

Greene is an extremely capable defensive defenseman who is solid with the puck and has a nice mix of experience and leadership qualities. With an expiring contract, he would be an extremely coveted asset at the trade deadline. Teams that could sorely use a D of his ilk include Winnipeg, Montreal and Vancouver. If he agreed to waive his NTC, Greene could likely fetch upwards to a third round pick+late round pick in return.
 

Triumph

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I would have to say that saying Arizona is an 82% chance of the playoffs is some sort of mystical fantasy. To wit, we can say that right now they are 2 points, or one win, ahead of Calgary. But was Arizona's addition of Taylor Hall more significant than Calgary's subtraction of disastrous Head Coaching abomination Bill Peters? The Flames are 6-1 since dumping Peters, and I would say they are a better than 82% bet to finish ahead of a less talented Coyotes squad in the Pacific Division. Or how about Nashville? Sure, they're 7 points behind Arizona in the Western Conference standings, but they have 3 games in hand and an extremely talented team. I don't have any idea who Micah Blake McCurdy is, but I would like to see what his odds were of the eventual Stanley Cup Champion St. Louis Blues making the playoffs were last season. These analytic algorithms to me are just voodoo.

The problem with this 'analysis' is that it's not that one of these teams might beat out Arizona, it's that that has to happen AND at least three of the other teams in the Pacific have to overtake them, for them to miss the playoffs. I don't think I'd put money down at 82% for them to make it, but 70%? Sure. And a 70% chance of making it basically means a 30% chance of missing, and probably an aggregate of about 6% of the time they miss does that pick end up as a top 3 selection - cumulatively, that's a less than 2% chance of Arizona's pick being a lottery pick.

I agree that Hayton and Soderstrom were far from guaranteed acquisitions for Taylor Hall. And I do not think Soderstrom is significantly superior as a prospect than Kevin Bahl. My point was simply that Shero made too many concessions (money, draft pick conditions, prospect quality, prospect depth) considering that Arizona needed Hall more on the day of the trade than the Devils needed to move Hall on the day of the trade.

I'm not sure that's true, at least not when Shero starts sitting him out - Arizona could afford to wait until March to see if they're still in playoff position.

I would've liked more but I am not at all surprised that this is the return.
 
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Call Me Al

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saying 70% is as arbitrary as 82% honestly, so many different ebbs and flows happen in an nhl season it’s hard to predict the specific chances, but having a 2 pt hold on a division lead with 50 games to play is not a solid place to be and certainly not a forgone conclusion to make the playoffs
 

Call Me Al

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they could go on a 3 game losing streak and be out of a playoff spot - would you still say 70-82% chance then?
 

billingtons ghost

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The problem with this 'analysis' is that it's not that one of these teams might beat out Arizona, it's that that has to happen AND at least three of the other teams in the Pacific have to overtake them, for them to miss the playoffs.

Good grief, it is like game 35 - They are tied for 4th best point total in the West with two other teams. One game could put them in sixth with underperforming but superior Vegas, Flames, Wild and Sharks behind them and reachable with a 1-4 game swing. It's a dice roll at this point.

How anyone could put '82%' chance of anything happening at this juncture and be taken seriously is ridiculous. Ballsy to even single quote someone *else's* analysis after this...
 

Setec Astronomy

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I would have to say that saying Arizona is an 82% chance of the playoffs is some sort of mystical fantasy. To wit, we can say that right now they are 2 points, or one win, ahead of Calgary. But was Arizona's addition of Taylor Hall more significant than Calgary's subtraction of disastrous Head Coaching abomination Bill Peters? The Flames are 6-1 since dumping Peters, and I would say they are a better than 82% bet to finish ahead of a less talented Coyotes squad in the Pacific Division. Or how about Nashville? Sure, they're 7 points behind Arizona in the Western Conference standings, but they have 3 games in hand and an extremely talented team. I don't have any idea who Micah Blake McCurdy is, but I would like to see what his odds were of the eventual Stanley Cup Champion St. Louis Blues making the playoffs were last season. These analytic algorithms to me are just voodoo.

I agree that Hayton and Soderstrom were far from guaranteed acquisitions for Taylor Hall. And I do not think Soderstrom is significantly superior as a prospect than Kevin Bahl. My point was simply that Shero made too many concessions (money, draft pick conditions, prospect quality, prospect depth) considering that Arizona needed Hall more on the day of the trade than the Devils needed to move Hall on the day of the trade.

I disagree that Shero could have done much better. I’m critical of a lot of what he does or more precisely doesn’t do, but he’s as good a negotiator and wheeler dealer as anyone. He may make a bad acquisition, but they don’t turn into disasters.

For starters, I doubt that Chayka is on the hot seat and needs to make the playoffs. He just signed an extension, and I imagine the local coverage of the team there makes our beat writers look like a combination of the Leafs and Habs press pool while binging on crystal meth. So he doesn’t need to make any win now moves at the expense of what he thinks is in the best long term interests of the team. Second, it’s pretty obvious that Chayka greatly values Hayton and especially Soderstrom. He called Soderstrom the third player on their board.

I only wish Shero would have done something to ensure that the pick we got for this year was a hard first with no conditions. Even with Hall, the Coyotes are not world beaters. There’s enough of a shot where things go sideways enough for them that they end up out of the playoffs, where the odds are not overwhelmingly against them getting one of the top three picks.
 
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oxman44

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Well, it stinks losing Hall and I too thought we'd get back a better second pick or a roster player instead of a conditional and extra prospects. That being said, I for one am looking forward to watching Bahl and Ty Smith patrol our blueline for years. Shades of Brandon Carlo and Torrey Krug there
 

billingtons ghost

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Well, it stinks losing Hall and I too thought we'd get back a better second pick or a roster player instead of a conditional and extra prospects. That being said, I for one am looking forward to watching Bahl and Ty Smith patrol our blueline for years. Shades of Brandon Carlo and Torrey Krug there

how very much would I like this to be the case... As long as Bahl doesn't end up Mueller, I'm happy - and certainly outside of the first, he's the piece to be most optimistic about.
 
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Triumph

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they could go on a 3 game losing streak and be out of a playoff spot - would you still say 70-82% chance then?

Of course not, but going on a 3 game losing streak where they earn no points is also unlikely - probably as unlikely as them missing the playoffs. It's almost like probabilities are conditional.
 

oxman44

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how very much would I like this to be the case... As long as Bahl doesn't end up Mueller, I'm happy - and certainly outside of the first, he's the piece to be most optimistic about.

Sure. From what I can read and what little video there is, he seems like a pretty different player. Mirco is a big guy but he dosent have much edge. Bahl seems pretty nasty.

We know Mirco is "limited" with the puck. They say Bahl likes to keep it simple, but it sounds like hes got a solid skill level, at least enough to get the job done at higher levels. he breaks out well and has good offensive instincts. He gets PP2 time in ottawa, has 20 points in 28Gp so theres something there at least.

So of course we don't, or shouldn't , expect 50 points out of him, but if he turns into anything like Carlo im pretty thrilled. Maybe i have a soft spot for guys like him, but as long as they can play the pace and game of the NHL level without any liability, I think we could really use a guy that can scare the s*** out of people sometimes :laugh:
 

Setec Astronomy

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Of course not, but going on a 3 game losing streak where they earn no points is also unlikely - probably as unlikely as them missing the playoffs. It's almost like probabilities are conditional.

It's almost as if these probabilities that people come up don't have much of a basis in reality, otherwise the people who came up with them would be very rich.

With 47 games to play Arizona is five points from being out of playoff spot. The two goalies they have are playing very well right now, but they don't have a history of being Vezina candidates. The roster from top to bottom looks good, but it doesn't have a history of success. Adding Taylor Hall should help a team like that get into the playoffs, but who knows. If you or someone else wants to come up with some fake number that encapsulates that, knock yourselves out. In fact I'd say keep it up as it seems to always work out for you guys, because you can literally never be wrong.
 

devilsblood

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I only wish Shero would have done something to ensure that the pick we got for this year was a hard first with no conditions. Even with Hall, the Coyotes are not world beaters. There’s enough of a shot where things go sideways enough for them that they end up out of the playoffs, where the odds are not overwhelmingly against them getting one of the top three picks.
That's an odd only wish. If they don't make the playoffs, they would have very small odds of winning the lottery. Chances are that whether he fought for that or didn't, we will still be getting their 1st rounder.
 

Setec Astronomy

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That's an odd only wish. If they don't make the playoffs, they would have very small odds of winning the lottery. Chances are that whether he fought for that or didn't, we will still be getting their 1st rounder.

I'm saying that I would have sacrificed something in the deal to make it unconditional. Perhaps the pick next year is only a third, or you got rid of it entirely. The odds that it gets any better than that aren't great.

It's more of quibble than anything else. As I've said, I don't think Ray could have gotten much better in a trade at a realistic juncture. What upsets me is that it got to this point.
 

MNDevilsfan

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Didn't like it when it was announced, like it even less after more time to digest and think about it. Pretty poor 6 or so months from Shero between failing to address the goaltending, hanging on to Hynes too long, and now a lackluster return for his biggest trade chip.

As you said the 2020 1st has some upside at least, since there's some chance of Arizona dropping out of the playoff race.
 

devilsblood

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I'm saying that I would have sacrificed something in the deal to make it unconditional. Perhaps the pick next year is only a third, or you got rid of it entirely. The odds that it gets any better than that aren't great.

It's more of quibble than anything else. As I've said, I don't think Ray could have gotten much better in a trade at a realistic juncture. What upsets me is that it got to this point.
Personally I prefer the actual asset, that being the 3rd rounder, then the highly unlikely event of this years 1st rounder being a lottery pick.

Now this has certainly not been a positive turn of events considering how promising the 17-18 season went, punctuated by Hall's play, and it's been a bit of an unfortunate string of events which got us here, a big part of that being Hall's injury, I think it also speaks to how fragile success can be for all but the true top tier teams. Not that I think Shero should be clear of criticism. I think that lens is now on him now that Hynes is gone. Not on the hot seat, but we are, imo, moving past the point of happily accepting high picks.
 

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