Speculation: Anaheim Ducks Roster Discussion Part IV

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Hey234

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Wasn't sure where to put this, but Stephens has an article on Manson today. Thought I would share an interesting quote:
"It’s fluctuated greatly,” he continued. “I feel like I’ve been playing a little bit better as of late. Kind of finding it a little bit. Simplifying. I’m a guy that kind of thrives under structure. Knowing where guys are. The best puck handlers (I’m with), the easier I can get it off my stick.

“Trying not to do too much. And then just finding that balance. Sometimes that gets a little bit out of sync and my game goes a little bit. And then it’s about getting it back to that level and finding that good line to run on.”

Seems to echo a lot of the criticism stated around here. I'm hopeful for a reasonable rebound in play next season.
 

Ducks DVM

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First of all, whether they sign him for NHL or San Diego is irrelevant - either way his ELC starts. The main difference is that he would make more money in the NHL for a short period of time.

You are shortsighted and have let your dislike of Murray cloud your judgement. Putting some money in Zegras pocket is a great way to reward the player and build loyalty/culture. As I understand it, he won't be an RFA when the ELC expires because he won't have accrued sufficient game experience (again, similar to Terry), which means his salary won't really go up much (and more likely he signs a longer term deal).

It also builds excitement and brings some hope to the fans.
1 - they can sign him to a PTO in San Diego and then no, his ELC does not start.

2 - shortsighted is wasting his contract when the team is absolute garbage - as in this year and next.

3 - shortsighted is signing a player to a professional contract who you feel needs further physical development. Zegras makes Terry look well built. It’s FAR easier to build muscle on a college schedule than it is on an NHL/AHL contract. I don’t think Zegras belongs anywhere near a pro team for at least 1, if not 2 years. He’s too slight.

4 - Terry is a RFA. He is just not eligible for offers from other teams. He will cost more money than if the year had not been burned. This also makes the assumption that he will play less than 10 games, which would actually count as an accrued season.

5 - none of this has anything whatsoever to do with hating BM. Those are all rational positions. Wanting him gone if he does any of that (especially #4) is because he’s be making a decision to waste control of players WHEN THEY BELONG IN THE NHL, just like he did with Lundestrom last year.

6 - Giving Zegras a few thousand dollars won’t mean crap when it comes to his RFA contract if he’s star/superstar level.
 
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Ducks DVM

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What's it take to burn a year of ELC? Because I could easily see Bob giving Z some games this year if it means getting him to that 2nd contract with less ammo.
That’s the only benefit. If he actually performs in that last year, though, all bets are off. It’s been a very long time since BM actually had to do a star contract though, and the landscape for what they’ll accept as far as term and cost has shifted since then.

More importantly, so has the team. It’s easy to sell taking a discount for staying on a winning team with a good culture. When the team sucks, and a better team is offering you more money, probably not so much.
 

Dr Johnny Fever

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That’s the only benefit. If he actually performs in that last year, though, all bets are off. It’s been a very long time since BM actually had to do a star contract though, and the landscape for what they’ll accept as far as term and cost has shifted since then.

More importantly, so has the team. It’s easy to sell taking a discount for staying on a winning team with a good culture. When the team sucks, and a better team is offering you more money, probably not so much.
Well, I'm with you if you're saying Bob is in over his head in the new NHL. I can't imagine what he would have done in Dubas' shoes the last couple years. No barstool in Anaheim would have been safe from his wrath. But that's also why I could see him take the route of burning the ELC early. It's the path of least resistance and the best opportunity to have the upper hand on the 2nd contract.
 
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duckpuck

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1 - they can sign him to a PTO in San Diego and then no, his ELC does not start.

2 - shortsighted is wasting his contract when the team is absolute garbage - as in this year and next.

3 - shortsighted is signing a player to a professional contract who you feel needs further physical development. Zegras makes Terry look well built. It’s FAR easier to build muscle on a college schedule than it is on an NHL/AHL contract. I don’t think Zegras belongs anywhere near a pro team for at least 1, if not 2 years. He’s too slight.

4 - Terry is a RFA. He is just not eligible for offers from other teams. He will cost more money than if the year had not been burned. This also makes the assumption that he will play less than 10 games, which would actually count as an accrued season.

5 - none of this has anything whatsoever to do with hating BM. Those are all rational positions. Wanting him gone if he does any of that (especially #4) is because he’s be making a decision to waste control of players WHEN THEY BELONG IN THE NHL, just like he did with Lundestrom last year.

6 - Giving Zegras a few thousand dollars won’t mean crap when it comes to his RFA contract if he’s star/superstar level.

1. I know they can do that. Why would Zegras agree to that? Why would he accept anything less than an ELC? The whole point is you're trying to reward Zegras and get him to join the organization ASAP so that he can work full time on getting better - starting today. You are offering an inducement for him to do so. You are not going to insult him with at PTO. You're going to offer him the same ELC you gave to Brayden Tracey several months ago.

2. Even if the Duck's NHL team is garbage, developmentally Zegras is much better off in the AHL then college. The training, level of competition, and number of games is much better in the AHL than College. And the ducks can keep close tabs with him in SD. I"m not sure why you feel its easier to gain size in college but, again, that is your opinion more than a provable fact.

3. That's your opinion. But you state it as if its a fact. Based on the reporting, my guess is the ducks disagree with the entirety of your point 3 (for the reasons I stated in 2). If the ducks agree with you, this whole conversation is irrelevant and they aren't signing him. But this conversation started on an opposite premises - that the ducks would sign him. I happen to agree with you that Zegras is better off not playing in the NHL next year. But the AHL seems like a better option than College.

4. Of course burning an ELC year ends up costing more money. The point is that the money is well spent if you want to sign Zegras now and get him NHL caliber training right away. It is a cost/benefit. There is a cost and no one is denying that. And for the record, Zegras won't play more than 10 games because: (i) he will sign late at a point when there are almost certainly less than 10 games remaining; and (ii) the ducks can scratch him if need be to manage to that.

5. I'll disagree. Your posts speak for themselves and you never miss an opportunity to bash BM and put the most negative spin on his moves, often with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. Criticizing the handling of Lundestrom last year is a perfect example. The ducks were trying to win and literally had no forwards to play. The decision might have been different in hindsight, but at the time, no one said a word about playing him (and Comtois) early. There are plenty of reasonable things to criticize BM about. Signing Zegras ASAP is not one of them.

6. You're very generous with Zegras' money. If you don't think a six figure signing bonus and NHL salary is a difference maker to a college student, then you are seriously out of touch. TODAY, that money is very important to Zegras and not very important to the ducks, which is exactly why they ducks should offer it.
 

Ducks DVM

sowcufucakky
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1. I know they can do that. Why would Zegras agree to that? Why would he accept anything less than an ELC? The whole point is you're trying to reward Zegras and get him to join the organization ASAP so that he can work full time on getting better - starting today. You are offering an inducement for him to do so. You are not going to insult him with at PTO. You're going to offer him the same ELC you gave to Brayden Tracey several months ago.

2. Even if the Duck's NHL team is garbage, developmentally Zegras is much better off in the AHL then college. The training, level of competition, and number of games is much better in the AHL than College. And the ducks can keep close tabs with him in SD. I"m not sure why you feel its easier to gain size in college but, again, that is your opinion more than a provable fact.

3. That's your opinion. But you state it as if its a fact. Based on the reporting, my guess is the ducks disagree with the entirety of your point 3 (for the reasons I stated in 2). If the ducks agree with you, this whole conversation is irrelevant and they aren't signing him. But this conversation started on an opposite premises - that the ducks would sign him. I happen to agree with you that Zegras is better off not playing in the NHL next year. But the AHL seems like a better option than College.

4. Of course burning an ELC year ends up costing more money. The point is that the money is well spent if you want to sign Zegras now and get him NHL caliber training right away. It is a cost/benefit. There is a cost and no one is denying that. And for the record, Zegras won't play more than 10 games because: (i) he will sign late at a point when there are almost certainly less than 10 games remaining; and (ii) the ducks can scratch him if need be to manage to that.

5. I'll disagree. Your posts speak for themselves and you never miss an opportunity to bash BM and put the most negative spin on his moves, often with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. Criticizing the handling of Lundestrom last year is a perfect example. The ducks were trying to win and literally had no forwards to play. The decision might have been different in hindsight, but at the time, no one said a word about playing him (and Comtois) early. There are plenty of reasonable things to criticize BM about. Signing Zegras ASAP is not one of them.

6. You're very generous with Zegras' money. If you don't think a six figure signing bonus and NHL salary is a difference maker to a college student, then you are seriously out of touch. TODAY, that money is very important to Zegras and not very important to the ducks, which is exactly why they ducks should offer it.
1 - Tracey is in juniors. That ELC doesn’t kick in until he’s old enough. It’s apples and oranges. Do the Ducks want Zegras to only play one season, or does Zegras only want to play one season of college hockey? I’ve seen zero reports of the Ducks wanting him to leave now. Please provide links if you’ve seen otherwise, I’d be more than happy to say I’m wrong.

2 - high skill players need to be cost controlled as long as possible in the current CBA - thats not controversial. It isn’t hard to find examples of teams that have screwed themselves overpaying young talent because they started them off too early. Because I think he’s too small (#3), I think it’s doubly stupid for the Ducks to be pushing him to start his pro career this year.

3 - as far as building muscle goes, you’re patently wrong. It’s virtually impossible to build muscle in-season for an AHL/NHL player, in fact it’s pretty well documented that many players struggle to simply maintain weight and not lose it. Yes, it’s my opinion he’s too light. That means my opinion isn’t shortsighted, which was your assertion. If anyone feels he isn’t, they can agree to disagree.

4 - I don’t have your crystal ball.

5 - plenty of people criticized BM last year over Lundestrom. It was glaringly obvious he was protecting RC with his roster moves, and Lundestrom clearly wasn’t really ready. Plenty of people also said that Comtois had no NHL game outside his shot and needed to be sent down. I’m very far from the biggest BM hater around him. I just found his loyalty to RC to the obvious detriment of the team to be unacceptable, as was his lying to my face and wasting my money.
6 - you said that paying Zegras now will build good faith. I pointed out that giving him an extra 50K now want mean beans when he wants 2-5M/year more than BM wants to pay him. Absolutely zero. Don’t move the goalposts. Also, I’m a long term season ticket holder. That’s partially my money, and it buys me the right to an opinion on how it’s spent.

edit - I’m out of this conversation. It’s all opinion, and you won’t change mine about him being ready or it being a good idea. I would appreciate actually links about the Ducks intent if you have them though.
 
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duckpuck

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1 - Tracey is in juniors. That ELC doesn’t kick in until he’s old enough. It’s apples and oranges. Do the Ducks want Zegras to only play one season, or does Zegras only want to play one season of college hockey? I’ve seen zero reports of the Ducks wanting him to leave now. Please provide links if you’ve seen otherwise, I’d be more than happy to say I’m wrong.

2 - high skill players need to be cost controlled as long as possible in the current CBA - thats not controversial. It isn’t hard to find examples of teams that have screwed themselves overpaying young talent because they started them off too early. Because I think he’s too small (#3), I think it’s doubly stupid for the Ducks to be pushing him to start his pro career this year.

3 - as far as building muscle goes, you’re patently wrong. It’s virtually impossible to build muscle in-season for an AHL/NHL player, in fact it’s pretty well documented that many players struggle to simply maintain weight and not lose it. Yes, it’s my opinion he’s too light. That means my opinion isn’t shortsighted, which was your assertion. If anyone feels he isn’t, they can agree to disagree.

4 - I don’t have your crystal ball.

5 - plenty of people criticized BM last year over Lundestrom. It was glaringly obvious he was protecting RC with his roster moves, and Lundestrom clearly wasn’t really ready. Plenty of people also said that Comtois had no NHL game outside his shot and needed to be sent down. I’m very far from the biggest BM hater around him. I just found his loyalty to RC to the obvious detriment of the team to be unacceptable, as was his lying to my face and wasting my money.
6 - you said that paying Zegras now will build good faith. I pointed out that giving him an extra 50K now want mean beans when he wants 2-5M/year more than BM wants to pay him. Absolutely zero. Don’t move the goalposts. Also, I’m a long term season ticket holder. That’s partially my money, and it buys me the right to an opinion on how it’s spent.

edit - I’m out of this conversation. It’s all opinion, and you won’t change mine about him being ready or it being a good idea. I would appreciate actually links about the Ducks intent if you have them though.

I can't figure out if you genuinely miss the point or just choice to move the goal posts - and then accuse me of doing so. When Tracey signed his contract, he immediately received something called . . . a signing bonus as well as a guaranteed contract for millions of dollars. I specifically pointed out it was six figures - this can be verified on Cap friendly. So it is not a $50,000.

Rather remarkable you dismiss even $50,000 to Zegras as insignificant then claim that your season ticket purchase somehow means anything to bolster your opinion. Guess what, I've had season tickets since the inaugural year. That is totally irrelevant other than showing your sense of entitlement and bitterness.

In terms of links, read the Athletic. Stephens has telegraphed what he thinks is going to happen.
 

Dr Johnny Fever

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OK, I just listened to the Athletic podcast with Stephens and Cooper.

Point Breakaway: Ducks Trade Kase to Boston for Backes, Prospect & 1st Rounder - The Athletic

First I would like to know why Bob does a presser with the media right after a trade like this but the Ducks don't share it somewhere for the fans? WTF Bob? He's talking to the world, but he can't bother to have it posted it to all the Ducks fans? f*** you Bob.

Secondly, he says "one of my biggest disappointments so far this year has been leadership". Let's break this down shall we? Leadership comes from your core players. Maybe not all of them, but certainly some of them. And they are players you should already know really well. You're not waiting for a guy to have a breakout season in leadership skills. You supposedly know a guy has that quality. He kept these guys to provide that leadership and now he's disappointed? Well, I'm disappointed and pissed he apparently still doesn't know his own players very well. And this is the guy who is going to rebuild this franchise going forward? :shakehead

I sure hope Henry is getting a good dose of this insanity.
 
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ADHB

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OK, I just listened to the Athletic podcast with Stephens and Cooper.

Point Breakaway: Ducks Trade Kase to Boston for Backes, Prospect & 1st Rounder - The Athletic

First I would like to know why Bob does a presser with the media right after a trade like this but the Ducks don't share it somewhere for the fans? WTF Bob? He's talking to the world, but he can't bother to have it posted it to all the Ducks fans? f*ck you Bob.

Secondly, he says "one of my biggest disappointments so far this year has been leadership". Let's break this down shall we? Leadership comes from your core players. Maybe not all of them, but certainly some of them. And they are players you should already know really well. You're not waiting for a guy to have a breakout season in leadership skills. You supposedly know a guy has that quality. He kept these guys to provide that leadership and now he's disappointed? Well, I'm disappointed and pissed he apparently still doesn't know his own players very well. And this is the guy who is going to rebuild this franchise going forward? :shakehead

I sure hope Henry is getting a good dose of this insanity.
They actually did post his comments in their entirety on the website, but you had to look for it. The team never tweeted a link or anything like that.
 

Opak

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OK, I just listened to the Athletic podcast with Stephens and Cooper.

Point Breakaway: Ducks Trade Kase to Boston for Backes, Prospect & 1st Rounder - The Athletic

First I would like to know why Bob does a presser with the media right after a trade like this but the Ducks don't share it somewhere for the fans? WTF Bob? He's talking to the world, but he can't bother to have it posted it to all the Ducks fans? f*ck you Bob.

Secondly, he says "one of my biggest disappointments so far this year has been leadership". Let's break this down shall we? Leadership comes from your core players. Maybe not all of them, but certainly some of them. And they are players you should already know really well. You're not waiting for a guy to have a breakout season in leadership skills. You supposedly know a guy has that quality. He kept these guys to provide that leadership and now he's disappointed? Well, I'm disappointed and pissed he apparently still doesn't know his own players very well. And this is the guy who is going to rebuild this franchise going forward? :shakehead

I sure hope Henry is getting a good dose of this insanity.

What is the context? In general or in some specific circumstances?

I personally think that the lack of goals for should be the source for Bob's disappointment.
 

ADHB

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Ducks Acquire Backes, Andersson and first-round pick from Bruins for Kase

His full comments are on there. The leadership thing was weird. He was explaining it almost as a justification for acquiring Backes, or for putting him into the lineup. I can understand if he's unhappy with the veteran players and their production, but I don't know what he's referring to when he says the word leadership. I mean, this team is the one he assembled. No amount of veteran presence was gonna get these guys into the playoffs.

This comment also pissed me off: "Donny and I had a few laughs over this. He's got some good prospects, and he was [upset] because I took his one right-hand shot defenseman. He took away everybody else, for God's sake, so I had to have something."

That makes it sound like Bob wanted something better but had to settle for Andersson because that's all the Bruins were willing to give up.
 
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Dr Johnny Fever

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I did find the text of some comments digging thru the website. But who knows if that was everything or just selective excerpts.

The pattern with these pressers is always the same. They are hidden somewhere or just not posted at all.
 
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Dr Johnny Fever

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Ducks Acquire Backes, Andersson and first-round pick from Bruins for Kase

His full comments are on there. The leadership thing was weird. He was explaining it almost as a justification for acquiring Backes, or for putting him into the lineup. I can understand if he's unhappy with the veteran players and their production, but I don't know what he's referring to when he says the word leadership. I mean, this team is the one he assembled. No amount of veteran presence was gonna get these guys into the playoffs.

This comment also pissed me off: "Donny and I had a few laughs over this. He's got some good prospects, and he was [upset] because I took his one right-hand shot defenseman. He took away everybody else, for God's sake, so I had to have something."

That makes it sound like Bob wanted something better but had to settle for Andersson because that's all the Bruins were willing to give up.
Yeah. Good to know Bob got a chuckle out of being bent over.
 

Paul4587

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Ducks Acquire Backes, Andersson and first-round pick from Bruins for Kase

His full comments are on there. The leadership thing was weird. He was explaining it almost as a justification for acquiring Backes, or for putting him into the lineup. I can understand if he's unhappy with the veteran players and their production, but I don't know what he's referring to when he says the word leadership. I mean, this team is the one he assembled. No amount of veteran presence was gonna get these guys into the playoffs.

This comment also pissed me off: "Donny and I had a few laughs over this. He's got some good prospects, and he was [upset] because I took his one right-hand shot defenseman. He took away everybody else, for God's sake, so I had to have something."

That makes it sound like Bob wanted something better but had to settle for Andersson because that's all the Bruins were willing to give up.

Yeah I thought the same about that comment. Not the smartest thing to say right after making that trade.
 

Opak

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Ducks Acquire Backes, Andersson and first-round pick from Bruins for Kase

His full comments are on there. The leadership thing was weird. He was explaining it almost as a justification for acquiring Backes, or for putting him into the lineup. I can understand if he's unhappy with the veteran players and their production, but I don't know what he's referring to when he says the word leadership. I mean, this team is the one he assembled. No amount of veteran presence was gonna get these guys into the playoffs.

This comment also pissed me off: "Donny and I had a few laughs over this. He's got some good prospects, and he was [upset] because I took his one right-hand shot defenseman. He took away everybody else, for God's sake, so I had to have something."

That makes it sound like Bob wanted something better but had to settle for Andersson because that's all the Bruins were willing to give up.

Yikes... :help:

Old Bob really is out of touch, isn't he..? Starting to think the rebuild should extend into the front office as well...
 

gilfaizon

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Yeah I thought the same about that comment. Not the smartest thing to say right after making that trade.

I read it more as Boston drafts so many good prospects, that they're the ones "taking away" the prospects at the draft.

If he means that Sweeney took them off the trading block for this deal, that does sound bad. Terrible PR
 

Ducks DVM

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I can't figure out if you genuinely miss the point or just choice to move the goal posts - and then accuse me of doing so. When Tracey signed his contract, he immediately received something called . . . a signing bonus as well as a guaranteed contract for millions of dollars. I specifically pointed out it was six figures - this can be verified on Cap friendly. So it is not a $50,000.

Rather remarkable you dismiss even $50,000 to Zegras as insignificant then claim that your season ticket purchase somehow means anything to bolster your opinion. Guess what, I've had season tickets since the inaugural year. That is totally irrelevant other than showing your sense of entitlement and bitterness.

In terms of links, read the Athletic. Stephens has telegraphed what he thinks is going to happen.

I don’t pay for it, thanks for the info though.

I’m a customer, not a fan. I pay part of Zegras’s salary. So do you. I don’t know what you do for a living, but yes, customer input absolutely plays into how a successful business is run. My personal input is minuscule, but much like boring, it earns me the right to comment and complain.

Tracey signed a bonus (which is absolutely not 6 figures, ELC bonuses aren’t capped at 10% of the annual salary, which is less than 1M, so while its close, you’re also incorrect on the number). The difference is that Tracey can sign them contract and then go back to juniors to be properly developed for his age at the appropriate level of competition and physical development. Zegras can’t. It’s apples and oranges.

But let’s pretend that the number is 200K. If Zegras scores 70 in the second year, he’s not going to say “sure, Bobbo, I remember when you did me a solid as an 18 year old, and I’ll gleefully accept a 1.5M “prove-it” contract instead of the 6-11M contract all the other kids of my age and skill set have gotten from other franchises! That’s my point. You’re ignoring it quibbling over what’s essentially couch change to players of that level.
 

duckpuck

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I don’t pay for it, thanks for the info though.

I’m a customer, not a fan. I pay part of Zegras’s salary. So do you. I don’t know what you do for a living, but yes, customer input absolutely plays into how a successful business is run. My personal input is minuscule, but much like boring, it earns me the right to comment and complain.

Tracey signed a bonus (which is absolutely not 6 figures, ELC bonuses aren’t capped at 10% of the annual salary, which is less than 1M, so while its close, you’re also incorrect on the number). The difference is that Tracey can sign them contract and then go back to juniors to be properly developed for his age at the appropriate level of competition and physical development. Zegras can’t. It’s apples and oranges.

But let’s pretend that the number is 200K. If Zegras scores 70 in the second year, he’s not going to say “sure, Bobbo, I remember when you did me a solid as an 18 year old, and I’ll gleefully accept a 1.5M “prove-it” contract instead of the 6-11M contract all the other kids of my age and skill set have gotten from other franchises! That’s my point. You’re ignoring it quibbling over what’s essentially couch change to players of that level.

Any fan has the right to comment and complain regardless of whether they buy tickets. You keep bringing up the fact that you have season tickets which is totally irrelevant, other than showing that you strangely think it matters. You wouldn't bring it up if you didn't think it made your opinion more important (which it doesn't).

The amount of signing bonus is easily found on the internet - we don't have to pretend. Tracey received $277,500 - six figures. Same amount as Terry, Comtois, and when he signs, Zegras.

You keep bringing up your opinion as to how and where players develop best. You haven't responded to my point that: (i) the ducks might not agree with you; and (ii) at this point (after college season ends), the ducks have lots of reasons to want to sign Zegras so that he can play AND TRAIN in a professional setting under team supervision. And if the ducks feel this way, then signing him now makes perfect sense. The potential effect on his next deal is part of the cost of doing that. And if Zegras earns a great next contract a year earlier, then so be it - I actually hope that is the case because it will mean he's become a great player. And burning off his ELC doesn't change the date Zegras becomes a UFA which is the more important date in any event.

Brayden Tracey - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Under your logic, why would: (i) the ducks ever offer max ELC contracts (since according to you its only couch change to the players and they have no choice on where to sign); and (ii) ever sign a college player before graduation? Neither of those moves make financial sense. Obviously, there are reasons every team does that - including treating your employees right and with respect. And if you don't think that matters - particularly to professional athletes - then I wouldn't want to work for you. Sometimes doing the right thing for your employees/players costs money.
 
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