Amnesty Buyout

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STL Shark

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Mar 6, 2013
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How is it fairly easy to trade someone that can just say no to every single deal offered?

The sharks could offer 15 1st round picks and vlasic to a team and he can't be traded if he does not want to be.

With vlasic every single magic card needs to come true. 1 vlasic needs to be willing to waive, 2 a team has to be willing to trade for him, 3 that team has to be on vlasics teams he is willing to go to, 4 the teams then have to find a deal that wotks for both teams.
Is it really much easier to trade Jones who has a 3 team trade list? Answer is no. If he doesn't want to go, he can make it impossible to deal him pretty easily. Ready for the next point to prove wrong.
 

Barrie22

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Is it really much easier to trade Jones who has a 3 team trade list? Answer is no. If he doesn't want to go, he can make it impossible to deal him pretty easily. Ready for the next point to prove wrong.

3 teams is better then 0 teams. Which makes it easier to trade jones. And this isn't even taking into account that jones can be sent to the minors to save some money. And can be left unprotected in the upcoming expansion draft. All of those things can't be done for vlasic.
 

STL Shark

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3 teams is better then 0 teams. Which makes it easier to trade jones. And this isn't even taking into account that jones can be sent to the minors to save some money. And can be left unprotected in the upcoming expansion draft. All of those things can't be done for vlasic.
Not protecting him I agree with. The 3 teams versus none has no material effect on the ability to trade Jones.
 

Pinkfloyd

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TLDR. Skimmed and found enough stuff to refute below.

Darling got traded with 2 years at $4.15 mil left as opposed to 5 years at $5.75 mil left. Total apples and oranges scenario there. Darling buyout spans 4 years at a lower cap hit as opposed to 8 years at a larger one.

I don't disagree that both players suck. I just see it pretty clear that Vlasic sucks less and has a far better reputation to those outside of this incredibly small sector of the fanbase than Jones does. It was literally written that Vlasic was willing to go to Montreal this season and they were willing to trade for him, so the pretense that no one would deal for him and that he would not waive are untrue. You can get players to waive pretty easily if you want to. I.e. healthy scratch until they decide to go.

Lastly, whether you keep Jones or not, you still have to pay money to find a starting goalie. How do people not see that? The point of, "if you buyout Jones you have to spend that money on a goalie still" is totally irrelevant to any discussion on this topic of Jones vs Vlasic. Jones isn't a starting goalie. So one way or another, you have to go find one and you yourself said it is going to cost just as much to go find one.

Your Darling response misses the point, is not apples and oranges, and is inaccurate. By the time Jones would be dealt, there's four years left. Two and four years and 1.6 mil difference is hardly the difference between hard to move and immovable. We just saw a Lucic for Neal trade this past off-season for dollar figures and years left in the bracket Jones is in. He is clearly movable and it's along the same lines as how Darling who was an actual AHL goalie got moved for a similarly bad contract.

To your second bit, I don't buy the whole literally written that Vlasic was willing to go to Montreal because it was Kurz but even if you believed it then the logical conclusion is that Montreal didn't want him because nothing materialized. And the closer you get to the expansion draft where Vlasic continues to show that he is just a reputation player at this point, the less likely he will find suitors until after. I'm not making the case that Vlasic can't be dealt or that he won't waive but you're dreaming if you think this team will do what you're suggesting to make that happen. But he is still harder to move than Jones because his contract is longer, more limiting than Jones, older, and further in his decline than Jones is. This is Vlasic's fourth consecutive year where he has sucked and he's shown no signs of turning it around on a consistent basis. At least with Jones, there is some evidence that the coaching changes has helped his game. He has made slight improvements under Boughner and Nabokov's coaching. Granted, it's not close to enough but a full off-season of coaching and a team that should be better, healthier, and more adjusted to the expectations of the new coach that was a far cry system-wise to the previous one would likely yield better results.

And to your last point, that's true but to what extent you have to pay is different. If you buy out Jones, you're absolutely going after a starter with starter's money needing to be doled out. Like it or not, with Jones here, the options for a starter is expanded to more riskier bets. Those guys that are 1B or unknown potential starters are put on the table in such a scenario. They are not if you buy out Jones because you have nobody that even has some NHL experience in the fold much less starter experience. The other thing to consider is what other dominos fall from this. If you buy out Vlasic, you're saving 7 mil in a spot where you don't have to spend 7 mil to fill in the gap left behind by Pickles. If you buy out Jones, you definitely are spending at least 5.75 mil to get a replacement goalie and you're not utilizing anything to address other roster needs. But in reality, the biggest reason to buy out Vlasic is because of expansion draft ramifications. I sincerely doubt anyone will trade for Vlasic this off-season given the current realities of the NHL. The cap could be dropping with expansion after next season. Vlasic is a force-protect and people got in a crap ton of trouble because of those during the Vegas run and they're going to avoid it. There's no reason for any team to trade for Vlasic until after that.
 
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Pinkfloyd

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Not protecting him I agree with. The 3 teams versus none has no material effect on the ability to trade Jones.

This is also simply false. Three teams is a material effect compared to zero especially when all the things you apply to Vlasic also apply to Jones. Difference is that Wilson, with his own admitted principle of not trading NMC players without them coming to him, doesn't have to go to Jones for those three teams. That's a material effect even if it's a minor one.
 
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STL Shark

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Your Darling response misses the point, is not apples and oranges, and is inaccurate. By the time Jones would be dealt, there's four years left. Two and four years and 1.6 mil difference is hardly the difference between hard to move and immovable. We just saw a Lucic for Neal trade this past off-season for dollar figures and years left in the bracket Jones is in. He is clearly movable and it's along the same lines as how Darling who was an actual AHL goalie got moved for a similarly bad contract.

To your second bit, I don't buy the whole literally written that Vlasic was willing to go to Montreal because it was Kurz but even if you believed it then the logical conclusion is that Montreal didn't want him because nothing materialized. And the closer you get to the expansion draft where Vlasic continues to show that he is just a reputation player at this point, the less likely he will find suitors until after. I'm not making the case that Vlasic can't be dealt or that he won't waive but you're dreaming if you think this team will do what you're suggesting to make that happen. But he is still harder to move than Jones because his contract is longer, more limiting than Jones, older, and further in his decline than Jones is. This is Vlasic's fourth consecutive year where he has sucked and he's shown no signs of turning it around on a consistent basis. At least with Jones, there is some evidence that the coaching changes has helped his game. He has made slight improvements under Boughner and Nabokov's coaching. Granted, it's not close to enough but a full off-season of coaching and a team that should be better, healthier, and more adjusted to the expectations of the new coach that was a far cry system-wise to the previous one would likely yield better results.

And to your last point, that's true but to what extent you have to pay is different. If you buy out Jones, you're absolutely going after a starter with starter's money needing to be doled out. Like it or not, with Jones here, the options for a starter is expanded to more riskier bets. Those guys that are 1B or unknown potential starters are put on the table in such a scenario. They are not if you buy out Jones because you have nobody that even has some NHL experience in the fold much less starter experience. The other thing to consider is what other dominos fall from this. If you buy out Vlasic, you're saving 7 mil in a spot where you don't have to spend 7 mil to fill in the gap left behind by Pickles. If you buy out Jones, you definitely are spending at least 5.75 mil to get a replacement goalie and you're not utilizing anything to address other roster needs. But in reality, the biggest reason to buy out Vlasic is because of expansion draft ramifications. I sincerely doubt anyone will trade for Vlasic this off-season given the current realities of the NHL. The cap could be dropping with expansion after next season. Vlasic is a force-protect and people got in a crap ton of trouble because of those during the Vegas run and they're going to avoid it. There's no reason for any team to trade for Vlasic until after that.

1) Darling was acquired for the sole reason to be bought out by the Panthers. That buyout spans 4 years. To be any sort of comparison, Jones would need to be acquired for purposes of being bought out by another team. Jones' buyout after this season spans 8 seasons. That is an entirely different case than what Darling is and is one of the bevy of reasons that your point comparing Darling and Jones is invalid. No one is acquiring Martin Jones to pay him a buyout over 8 years. Ain't happening.

2) Vlasic sucks as a top pair D-Man, as he is being paid to be. That is not refutable. However, if you took Vlasic and made him a bottom pairing D-Man with more sheltered competition, he would be very successful. He just is not good enough to be playing top pairing minutes anymore. Martin Jones, however, is not even a good NHL backup regardless of his salary. Even at $700k, he is not worth being on the ice in NHL games. He is just plain bad at the one thing he is being paid to do, which is to stop hockey pucks.

3) A goalie that can be league average at least, preferably better, is a roster need no matter how you slice it if this team wants to get back to being any sort of a playoff contender. It is a roster need just as much as adding an additional top 6 forward. Let's say you buyout Vlasic. You now need another top 4 D-Man to replace him in the short-term (a top 4 of Ferraro and Simek on the left side is no bueno), so let's generously say that costs $4.5 million for someone of Dillon's caliber. Then the goalie situation still needs to be addressed (a 1B in this scenario that you illustrated). That is going to cost more than $2.5 million which thus alleviates the cap savings you just got from the Vlasic buyout. So you really don't come out in any better of a situation in addressing the other pieces of the roster by buying out Vlasic than you do buying out Jones. If you can go out an nab a legitimately good starting goalie (i.e. Lehner for an example at the Jones salary) that covers up holes in the other parts of the roster moreso than grabbing an average #4 D-Man like Dillon and a 1B goalie.
 

STL Shark

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This is also simply false. Three teams is a material effect compared to zero especially when all the things you apply to Vlasic also apply to Jones. Difference is that Wilson, with his own admitted principle of not trading NMC players without them coming to him, doesn't have to go to Jones for those three teams. That's a material effect even if it's a minor one.
Jones having a 3 team trade list does not have an excessive (aka material) impact on the ability to trade him when compared to Vlasic having a full NMC. Jones could literally just say that his 3 teams he would take a trade to are Toronto (can't absorb the cap), Vegas (can't absorb the cap and will not deal with SJ), and Tampa Bay (can't absorb the cap) if he really did not want to be traded. That has the exact same effect in practice as Vlasic having a NMC for purposes of being traded.

Simply put, if neither player wants to be traded, they can each make it pretty much equally impossible for the organization to trade them just like if each player wants to be traded they can make it possible for the organization to trade them.
 

Pinkfloyd

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1) Darling was acquired for the sole reason to be bought out by the Panthers. That buyout spans 4 years. To be any sort of comparison, Jones would need to be acquired for purposes of being bought out by another team. Jones' buyout after this season spans 8 seasons. That is an entirely different case than what Darling is and is one of the bevy of reasons that your point comparing Darling and Jones is invalid. No one is acquiring Martin Jones to pay him a buyout over 8 years. Ain't happening.

2) Vlasic sucks as a top pair D-Man, as he is being paid to be. That is not refutable. However, if you took Vlasic and made him a bottom pairing D-Man with more sheltered competition, he would be very successful. He just is not good enough to be playing top pairing minutes anymore. Martin Jones, however, is not even a good NHL backup regardless of his salary. Even at $700k, he is not worth being on the ice in NHL games. He is just plain bad at the one thing he is being paid to do, which is to stop hockey pucks.

3) A goalie that can be league average at least, preferably better, is a roster need no matter how you slice it if this team wants to get back to being any sort of a playoff contender. It is a roster need just as much as adding an additional top 6 forward. Let's say you buyout Vlasic. You now need another top 4 D-Man to replace him in the short-term (a top 4 of Ferraro and Simek on the left side is no bueno), so let's generously say that costs $4.5 million for someone of Dillon's caliber. Then the goalie situation still needs to be addressed (a 1B in this scenario that you illustrated). That is going to cost more than $2.5 million which thus alleviates the cap savings you just got from the Vlasic buyout. So you really don't come out in any better of a situation in addressing the other pieces of the roster by buying out Vlasic than you do buying out Jones. If you can go out an nab a legitimately good starting goalie (i.e. Lehner for an example at the Jones salary) that covers up holes in the other parts of the roster moreso than grabbing an average #4 D-Man like Dillon and a 1B goalie.

To #1, Florida also got rid of James Reimer in the deal at 3.4 mil with two years left. You're getting far too hung up on the specifics and their minor differences rather than idea. They were both goalies on bad contracts traded for one another. It is not an entirely different case and it means little if you think it is. A team may acquire Jones to try and get out from under a bad contract of their own. This sort of deal is not uncommon and I don't know why you're pretending like it is. Also, note that you completely sidestepped the Neal-Lucic point made.

To #2, the time that Vlasic has spent on 3rd pairings, limited as the data may be, does not lend credibility to the idea that he'd be successful at it. However, even if he were, that's not what you spend 7 mil on when you have a dire need for forward help and a way to remove that while seeing very limited consequences for doing so. Since the coaching change, Jones has seen an increase in stopping pucks to what is at least serviceable in the NHL as a backup. And I think there's enough signs there to see that he'd improve. He probably won't be the starter they need anymore but if he can continue at the .906 save percentage since Boughner took over, that's good enough to at least have him be tradeable while also not having an adverse effect on the way the team approaches the expansion draft.

To #3, there are so many variables involved here that it's hard to address all of it. I would rather free up 7 mil, get a Dillon like player at 4.5 mil and a 1B at 3.5 mil than buyout Jones just to bring in another goalie to a similar contract. I mean, the idea that Lehner would take the Jones deal I think is unrealistic. I don't even think it should be done even if you could. Lehner is not a full-fledged starter and goaltending in general is not a position you invest term into due to its volatility.

Jones having a 3 team trade list does not have an excessive (aka material) impact on the ability to trade him when compared to Vlasic having a full NMC. Jones could literally just say that his 3 teams he would take a trade to are Toronto (can't absorb the cap), Vegas (can't absorb the cap and will not deal with SJ), and Tampa Bay (can't absorb the cap) if he really did not want to be traded. That has the exact same effect in practice as Vlasic having a NMC for purposes of being traded.

Simply put, if neither player wants to be traded, they can each make it pretty much equally impossible for the organization to trade them just like if each player wants to be traded they can make it possible for the organization to trade them.

I mean, if you're going with excessive impact then having the ability to trade a player to 10% more teams without consent qualifies, imo. Since you can't prove that your scenario is actually the case, we can only go off of what we have presented to us. What is presented to us from a factual perspective and not a rumored perspective is one player has three teams and the other has zero. One player can be buried to save cap space and one can't. One player has to be protected for the expansion draft and one doesn't. Those are factual material impact on the ability to trade them elsewhere. You have no leg to stand on with your argument.
 

OrrNumber4

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Important to note that in the vast majority of situations, a NMC/NTC doesn't let a player not get traded, but to control his destination. No player worth his salt wants to stay where he isn't wanted; his clause carries power when his team is fielding multiple offers and he can choose between some.
 
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Pinkfloyd

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Important to note that in the vast majority of situations, a NMC/NTC doesn't let a player not get traded, but to control his destination. No player worth his salt wants to stay where he isn't wanted; his clause carries power when his team is fielding multiple offers and he can choose between some.

Well, technically, this isn't true. A full NMC/NTC does let a player not get traded if that is his choice for whatever reason. As it relates to this situation, this note is ultimately meaningless. The GM has stated that his approach to players with full clauses is to have them approach him to move. But a player like Vlasic absolutely can not allow a trade to happen if he so chooses.
 

Nolan11

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Mar 5, 2013
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Well, technically, this isn't true. A full NMC/NTC does let a player not get traded if that is his choice for whatever reason. As it relates to this situation, this note is ultimately meaningless. The GM has stated that his approach to players with full clauses is to have them approach him to move. But a player like Vlasic absolutely can not allow a trade to happen if he so chooses.

To this point, dw absolutely said this in an interview this year. I inferred from his language that Vlasic may have reached out and indicated he'd be open to a specific trade. Obviously, we don't know if that happened, but it was the first time I believed it might actually be possible.
 

Pinkfloyd

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To this point, dw absolutely said this in an interview this year. I inferred from his language that Vlasic may have reached out and indicated he'd be open to a specific trade. Obviously, we don't know if that happened, but it was the first time I believed it might actually be possible.

That's certainly possible but they still need a suitor in order for it to mean anything and given the upcoming expansion draft, it's hard to see that being the case. Maybe if Vlasic requests going to a team that also has an NMC that they want to dump that is okay with going to San Jose but I haven't done the research to see who may qualify on that front.
 

Nolan11

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That's certainly possible but they still need a suitor in order for it to mean anything and given the upcoming expansion draft, it's hard to see that being the case. Maybe if Vlasic requests going to a team that also has an NMC that they want to dump that is okay with going to San Jose but I haven't done the research to see who may qualify on that front.

If Vlasic waives his NMC to go to Montreal, for example, don't the Habs have the option to not reinstate it? Or is that just NTCs?
 

Pinkfloyd

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If Vlasic waives his NMC to go to Montreal, for example, don't the Habs have the option to not reinstate it? Or is that just NTCs?

That's only for clauses that have yet to come into effect. So they have to carry over the NMC but they would have the option to decline the three team trade list that starts in July 2023.
 
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LadyStanley

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FTR, the NHL pundits have reported the owners are not interested in an amnesty buy out this summer, regardless. They'll work in the confines of the CBA and negotiations with the union to do whatever is needed to have at least a "flat" cap.
 

Barrie22

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That's only for clauses that have yet to come into effect. So they have to carry over the NMC but they would have the option to decline the three team trade list that starts in July 2023.

I wonder how that affects changes in the clauses. Could they then decline the modified no trade clause for the final 3 years?
 

stator

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I cannot see any buyout other than Jones. The rest have too much trade value, even if it means retaining or giving up some. The wildcard here is the expansion draft which is going to hammer the Pacific again. Except for Las Vegas which has a get out of jail card for this.
 
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Barrie22

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Question for CBA experts out there. Can someone define the types of buy outs and how many teams get, and if we've used ours which NHL teams still have one.

There is litterally only 1 kind of buyout, unless the owners and players agree on a 1 time amnesty buyout which has happened after lockouts and the cap had to be changed because of new rules being put into place.

I am not sure exactly of the dates, but then can only be done some time at the start of the offseason and then a buyout period can be opened up depending on something to do with arbitration of rfa players.
 

The Ice Hockey Dude

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There is litterally only 1 kind of buyout, unless the owners and players agree on a 1 time amnesty buyout which has happened after lockouts and the cap had to be changed because of new rules being put into place.

I am not sure exactly of the dates, but then can only be done some time at the start of the offseason and then a buyout period can be opened up depending on something to do with arbitration of rfa players.

there are no team limits on buy outs? e.g. 1 per cba agreement??
 

Doctor Soraluce

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You have a choice of 2 life threatening diseases... One has 3 potential cures, all of which are expensive. The other can only be cured if it chooses to go away on it's own. Which do you choose? Should be plainly obvious that Vlasic's contract is the salary cap equivalent of cancer. If it's at all possible he should be the one to get bought out if possible. Also Jones showed signs toward the end of the season of getting his game back together. If they have to keep one I would keep Jones and bring in another goalie with a legit shot to challenge him. Ideally you get rid of them both if possible though.
 

stator

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Should be plainly obvious that Vlasic's contract is the salary cap equivalent of cancer.

It's probably not cancerous in terms of trading whereas I cannot see Jones being traded without sending over a check of substantial sums, and getting a bag of pucks in return.

Perhaps, the league should have partial buyouts where a percentage of the player's salary is bought out?
 

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