Rutherford: Allen Taking a Different Approach to Summer

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Majorityof1

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This is relevant to the topic....but if Allen isnt a fit for the system...why not just alter the system. I'm sure the skaters wont mind not having to try to block everything.

Who's going to move the opposing player out of his sight lines? We aren't a physical team, at least on defense, so if we can't clear the crease and low slot, than we might as well block the shots coming in from angles that those guys can tip/screen. I'd love for our team to be better at clearing his sight lines but it really hasn't happened. At least that is my guess.
 

simon IC

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Who's going to move the opposing player out of his sight lines? We aren't a physical team, at least on defense, so if we can't clear the crease and low slot, than we might as well block the shots coming in from angles that those guys can tip/screen. I'd love for our team to be better at clearing his sight lines but it really hasn't happened. At least that is my guess.
This is very interesting to me, especially in the light of posts advocating playing Schmaltz regularly over Bortuzzo, or even potentially exposing Edmundson in the next ED in order to protect Dunn. Do you think the lack of physicality among the D corps is due to the personalities of the players, or are they being coached that way? It is likely a combination, but I am beginning to suspect the latter is a big factor.
 

Dbrownss

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Who's going to move the opposing player out of his sight lines? We aren't a physical team, at least on defense, so if we can't clear the crease and low slot, than we might as well block the shots coming in from angles that those guys can tip/screen. I'd love for our team to be better at clearing his sight lines but it really hasn't happened. At least that is my guess.
Teach our guys how to do it guess, non of them are small besides Dunn. Idk, just trying to look for alternatives to performing seances to get Allen's mind right
 

stl76

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Maybe Adam Francilia can take on Jake as a client...
 

Renard

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Who's going to move the opposing player out of his sight lines? We aren't a physical team, at least on defense, so if we can't clear the crease and low slot, than we might as well block the shots coming in from angles that those guys can tip/screen. I'd love for our team to be better at clearing his sight lines but it really hasn't happened. At least that is my guess.

These days, you can't clear the crease without taking a penalty. Goalies have to peek around the opponent and the defenseman all the time.
 

Majorityof1

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These days, you can't clear the crease without taking a penalty. Goalies have to peek around the opponent and the defenseman all the time.

There is a difference between clearing the crease and keeping the crease clear. I probably misspoke. If a player firmly has position in front of the goalie, you absolutely cannot slash,crosscheck or lay him out to clear the crease. Those are all penalties. However, there is still a certain amount of jockeying for position and even pushing in that area of the ice that the refs allow. You can nudge a player out of position. Better yet, if you establish an inside position, and do not allow the player to establish himself in front of the goalie, you can keep the crease clear. If there was nothing you could do about someone screening your goalie, why do we so rarely do it? Why not just take the biggest guy on the team and park him 2 inches from the goalie's face on the PP if the other team isn't allowed to stop you? Because it takes skill to be able to establish and keep position with defenders trying to keep you out.

This is very interesting to me, especially in the light of posts advocating playing Schmaltz regularly over Bortuzzo, or even potentially exposing Edmundson in the next ED in order to protect Dunn. Do you think the lack of physicality among the D corps is due to the personalities of the players, or are they being coached that way? It is likely a combination, but I am beginning to suspect the latter is a big factor.

I think its a bit of both. JBo was never that physical. Gunnarsson did have a noticeable drop in physical play but that could be injury related. He was never super physical but did hit a decent bit with Toronto. Weak hits, but hits none the less. I don't remember Bortuzzo too much pre-trade to compare. We don't know what Petro would have become had he been drafted by a different system. Same with Parayko and Eddie. Parayko and Petro just seem not to be physical players from their mannerisms and personality. However, Edmundson does seem to be so and he still plays with somewhat of an edge. But I think that edge is duller than it would be if left to his own devices. So I think coaches do teach a more passive system, but I also think our top 4 has historically been more passive themselves until Eddie broke in.

Teach our guys how to do it guess, non of them are small besides Dunn. Idk, just trying to look for alternatives to performing seances to get Allen's mind right

No, I totally get it. Keep in mind, my read could also be wrong. Allen could totally suck in a different system as well. Or he could have all the tools to succeed in ours once he figures out whatever is making him inconsistent. Our defensive system works. We don't allow a ton of shots or high-danger chances (at least high danger to a normal goalie). So it would be a giant hassle to change philosophies in order to support a goalie who might just be bad. It would be especially wasteful when we have a system that allows a guy like Carter Hutton to lead the league in S% and GAA.
 

EastonBlues22

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"Fronting," as opposed to "net-side positioning," is a lot more common as a defensive strategy now than it used to be across the league.

There's a number of reasons for that. Goalies are bigger and generally better at aggressively pressing angles than they used to be, which means they can rely on "positional" saves instead of seeing and reacting to the puck cleanly, which in turn devalues clearing their shooting lanes.

There's also been a lot of research into the value of getting the puck to the net in recent years (and thus the value of preventing that from happening), and it's easier to prevent that as a defender when you're fronting since you can more easily fill and press out into shooting lanes. Fewer pucks to the net means fewer saves needed, and fewer rebounds to contest. Fronting also makes it more difficult for the opposing forward near the net to get a clean deflection on an incoming puck since it's going through another person before it gets to him.

It's also easier for a fronting defenseman to close down lateral passing lanes, which are always dangerous, and to defend the "space" you are responsible for in general when you're not crammed between an opponent and your goalie right in front of the net. A defender maintaining net-side positioning is essentially fighting through a pick anytime he wants to do anything beyond engage with that forward immediately in front of him.

A fronting defenseman is much more likely to generate a turnover or change in possession than a net-side one, which fuels transition play. On top of that, it can lead to easy zone clears when the defense wins the puck, and even odd man breaks, since the forward who was being fronted is now trapped behind the play after the possession change.

The rule enforcement changes in recent years that have generally made it more difficult to manhandle and punish opponents who camp in front of the net is also a factor, as that makes it more difficult effectively nullify an opponent when you're engaged from a net-side position.

Since the Blues have a fairly mobile and offensively talented defensive corps, it makes a lot of sense to have them "front" as it plays to their strengths and generally avoids their weaknesses (asking them to engage in and win pitched physical battles in front of the net where their mobility, active sticks, etc. are generally non-factors).

Of course, there are downsides to not playing net-side defense. If a puck does make it through, the defender is now at a disadvantage when contesting a rebound. If your goalies isn't good at controlling rebounds, that can be a significant problem. The defender gets to camp in front of your goalie relatively uncontested, and if your goalie isn't adept at peeking around him, or if he struggles with positional saves in general, those can also be problems.

It's always a trade-off for stuff like this. In general, I think the Blues are better off fronting from a system and personnel standpoint. Unfortunately, the goaltending issues behind them currently can exacerbate the drawbacks of that approach, but if Allen is struggling with his fundamentals/positioning, it's not like playing a different system is going to negate that. Making the team less effective around him isn't a viable solution. Allen has just got to player better, or the Blues need to find someone else who is a better fit for what they're trying to do here.
 
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GoldenSeal

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This is relevant to the topic....but if Allen isnt a fit for the system...why not just alter the system. I'm sure the skaters wont mind not having to try to block everything.

Easy answer: Mike Yeo's the coach. If we had a different or more strategic/out of the box thinker the system would organically adapt and alter to the combined players strengths and not purely off of a system, but that's where we are at and with the right people, it can work just as well and I think we're at that point.

As for Jake, honestly barring injury to the team, he should be fine. He shouldn't face many shots and if he can't even stop those, we got Chad and Husso in the system. I am now convinced that management has Jake under a microscope and are not going to tolerate lackluster performance from a 4m/year Starter. They'll start Chad and I honestly can see us dumping Jake at the TDL if he doesn't rise to the occasion. Jake's future is entirely in his hands and I'm really rooting for him for no other reason than because he wears Blue.
 

GoldenSeal

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Allen should swallow the pride and go all type of doctors, voodoo **** and shaman get his **** together or Husso will take his spot on this team. Time is ticking softie.

It won't matter much as I think we've seen the ceiling of Jake Allen. Husso is the future.
 

Brian39

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As for Jake, honestly barring injury to the team, he should be fine. He shouldn't face many shots and if he can't even stop those, we got Chad and Husso in the system. I am now convinced that management has Jake under a microscope and are not going to tolerate lackluster performance from a 4m/year Starter. They'll start Chad and I honestly can see us dumping Jake at the TDL if he doesn't rise to the occasion. Jake's future is entirely in his hands and I'm really rooting for him for no other reason than because he wears Blue.

The only way he's dumped at the TDL is if we have to shed his cap space to bring in another goalie. Given our past experience with a rental goalie, I don't see us going down that road. If we do want to go down that road, it means Allen is a dumpster fire and I don't see why a team would take his contract in order to move a rental goalie. Swapping out goalies (when yours is underperforming and has contract term) is a move that probably has to be made in the summer. I could see Allen riding the bench in favor of an internal or external option, I just don't thin he's moving at the TDL.
 
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GoldenSeal

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The only way he's dumped at the TDL is if we have to shed his cap space to bring in another goalie. Given our past experience with a rental goalie, I don't see us going down that road. If we do want to go down that road, it means Allen is a dumpster fire and I don't see why a team would take his contract in order to move a rental goalie. Swapping out goalies (when yours is underperforming and has contract term) is a move that probably has to be made in the summer. I could see Allen riding the bench in favor of an internal or external option, I just don't thin he's moving at the TDL.

I would agree if we had a strong borderline Starter in Chad Johnson and like Jake, he does have his moments and if Husso had NHL experience under his belt and was ready to go. Jake is the Starter and if he can't do his job it would be irresponsible of management to have Chad Johnson try to carry us with a very inexperienced Husso backing him up.

An "External" option, like the one you mention, means we are acquiring a netminder at the TDL and moneywise it makes more sense that if Jake botches his last chance that he's shipped off as a cap dump for a pick over trying to carry his contract and the new netminders.

Management blew it by not allowing Halak and Elliott do their job and we never got to see how Halak did in the playoffs for us, instead praying that Ryan Miller can walk in and be Ryan of old and he blew it. This situation is vastly different than that; this time we need a stopgap netminder if Jake can't step up. Husso isn't ready and he needs the time and the chance to be.
 

simon IC

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There is a difference between clearing the crease and keeping the crease clear. I probably misspoke. If a player firmly has position in front of the goalie, you absolutely cannot slash,crosscheck or lay him out to clear the crease. Those are all penalties. However, there is still a certain amount of jockeying for position and even pushing in that area of the ice that the refs allow. You can nudge a player out of position. Better yet, if you establish an inside position, and do not allow the player to establish himself in front of the goalie, you can keep the crease clear. If there was nothing you could do about someone screening your goalie, why do we so rarely do it? Why not just take the biggest guy on the team and park him 2 inches from the goalie's face on the PP if the other team isn't allowed to stop you? Because it takes skill to be able to establish and keep position with defenders trying to keep you out.



I think its a bit of both. JBo was never that physical. Gunnarsson did have a noticeable drop in physical play but that could be injury related. He was never super physical but did hit a decent bit with Toronto. Weak hits, but hits none the less. I don't remember Bortuzzo too much pre-trade to compare. We don't know what Petro would have become had he been drafted by a different system. Same with Parayko and Eddie. Parayko and Petro just seem not to be physical players from their mannerisms and personality. However, Edmundson does seem to be so and he still plays with somewhat of an edge. But I think that edge is duller than it would be if left to his own devices. So I think coaches do teach a more passive system, but I also think our top 4 has historically been more passive themselves until Eddie broke in.



No, I totally get it. Keep in mind, my read could also be wrong. Allen could totally suck in a different system as well. Or he could have all the tools to succeed in ours once he figures out whatever is making him inconsistent. Our defensive system works. We don't allow a ton of shots or high-danger chances (at least high danger to a normal goalie). So it would be a giant hassle to change philosophies in order to support a goalie who might just be bad. It would be especially wasteful when we have a system that allows a guy like Carter Hutton to lead the league in S% and GAA.
I am so glad you pointed this out! I was not the biggest defenseman, so I often had difficulty containing my assignment. To this day I remember what my Bantam coach said to me. (Paraphrasing) "I'm not asking you to kill the guy. You don't have to put him through the glass! All I need you to do, is just get in his way." This was back in the '70's, before there was a real crackdown on interference. Even today, you can manoeuvre your opponent to a less dangerous position without taking a penalty. Obviously, it depends on the circumstance. If Thomas Holstrom wanted to park his butt in the crease, there wasn't much anyone could do about it. IIRC, this is also how Backes and Brouwer scored a lot of their goals, particularly in the playoffs. However, I would really like someone to explain to me how a guy like Alex DeBrincat can set up right in front of our net with full autonomy. Especially if he is the assignment of someone like Colton Parayko! Pietrangelo, Edmundson, Bortuzzo and Bouwmeester are also all very big guys. They don't have to repeatedly crosscheck their assignments to the ice, as in the '90's, but they certainly can use their weight and lateral mobility to make their opponents less dangerous, if not nullified.
 
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simon IC

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"Fronting," as opposed to "net-side positioning," is a lot more common as a defensive strategy now than it used to be across the league.

There's a number of reasons for that. Goalies are bigger and generally better at aggressively pressing angles than they used to be, which means they can rely on "positional" saves instead of seeing and reacting to the puck cleanly, which in turn devalues clearing their shooting lanes.

There's also been a lot of research into the value of getting the puck to the net in recent years (and thus the value of preventing that from happening), and it's easier to prevent that as a defender when you're fronting since you can more easily fill and press out into shooting lanes. Fewer pucks to the net means fewer saves needed, and fewer rebounds to contest. Fronting also makes it more difficult for the opposing forward near the net to get a clean deflection on an incoming puck since it's going through another person before it gets to him.

It's also easier for a fronting defenseman to close down lateral passing lanes, which are always dangerous, and to defend the "space" you are responsible for in general when you're not crammed between an opponent and your goalie right in front of the net. A defender maintaining net-side positioning is essentially fighting through a pick anytime he wants to do anything beyond engage with that forward immediately in front of him.

A fronting defenseman is much more likely to generate a turnover or change in possession than a net-side one, which fuels transition play. On top of that, it can lead to easy zone clears when the defense wins the puck, and even odd man breaks, since the forward who was being fronted is now trapped behind the play after the possession change.

The rule enforcement changes in recent years that have generally made it more difficult to manhandle and punish opponents who camp in front of the net is also a factor, as that makes it more difficult effectively nullify an opponent when you're engaged from a net-side position.

Since the Blues have a fairly mobile and offensively talented defensive corps, it makes a lot of sense to have them "front" as it plays to their strengths and generally avoids their weaknesses (asking them to engage in and win pitched physical battles in front of the net where their mobility, active sticks, etc. are generally non-factors).

Of course, there are downsides to not playing net-side defense. If a puck does make it through, the defender is now at a disadvantage when contesting a rebound. If your goalies isn't good at controlling rebounds, that can be a significant problem. The defender gets to camp in front of your goalie relatively uncontested, and if your goalie isn't adept at peeking around him, or if he struggles with positional saves in general, those can also be problems.

It's always a trade-off for stuff like this. In general, I think the Blues are better off fronting from a system and personnel standpoint. Unfortunately, the goaltending issues behind them currently can exacerbate the drawbacks of that approach, but if Allen is struggling with his fundamentals/positioning, it's not like playing a different system is going to negate that. Making the team less effective around him isn't a viable solution. Allen has just got to player better, or the Blues need to find someone else who is a better fit for what they're trying to do here.
Wow, excellent post, Easton! I wish I had read it before writing my last post. :) I completely understand the advantages of "fronting" your assignment, and how it is particularly effective in today's NHL. It wasn't widely used as a tactic back when I played defense, but back then we had the benefit of being able to behead our opponents. :D. I can see fronting as being particularly effective for defenseman like Pietrangelo, Dunn, Shattenkirk, etc, who have the IQ and soft hands to effectively employ it. I wonder however, if players like Edmundson or Bortuzzo might be more effective using net-side positioning. At least, sometimes. I have noticed that Colton Parayko loves to front his man. (I rarely see him do anything else!) I cannot help but wonder if he would also be more effective at net-side defending, as he has the size, weight, and most importantly, lateral mobility, to neutralize his opponent.
 

Dbrownss

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"Fronting," as opposed to "net-side positioning," is a lot more common as a defensive strategy now than it used to be across the league.

There's a number of reasons for that. Goalies are bigger and generally better at aggressively pressing angles than they used to be, which means they can rely on "positional" saves instead of seeing and reacting to the puck cleanly, which in turn devalues clearing their shooting lanes.

There's also been a lot of research into the value of getting the puck to the net in recent years (and thus the value of preventing that from happening), and it's easier to prevent that as a defender when you're fronting since you can more easily fill and press out into shooting lanes. Fewer pucks to the net means fewer saves needed, and fewer rebounds to contest. Fronting also makes it more difficult for the opposing forward near the net to get a clean deflection on an incoming puck since it's going through another person before it gets to him.

It's also easier for a fronting defenseman to close down lateral passing lanes, which are always dangerous, and to defend the "space" you are responsible for in general when you're not crammed between an opponent and your goalie right in front of the net. A defender maintaining net-side positioning is essentially fighting through a pick anytime he wants to do anything beyond engage with that forward immediately in front of him.

A fronting defenseman is much more likely to generate a turnover or change in possession than a net-side one, which fuels transition play. On top of that, it can lead to easy zone clears when the defense wins the puck, and even odd man breaks, since the forward who was being fronted is now trapped behind the play after the possession change.

The rule enforcement changes in recent years that have generally made it more difficult to manhandle and punish opponents who camp in front of the net is also a factor, as that makes it more difficult effectively nullify an opponent when you're engaged from a net-side position.

Since the Blues have a fairly mobile and offensively talented defensive corps, it makes a lot of sense to have them "front" as it plays to their strengths and generally avoids their weaknesses (asking them to engage in and win pitched physical battles in front of the net where their mobility, active sticks, etc. are generally non-factors).

Of course, there are downsides to not playing net-side defense. If a puck does make it through, the defender is now at a disadvantage when contesting a rebound. If your goalies isn't good at controlling rebounds, that can be a significant problem. The defender gets to camp in front of your goalie relatively uncontested, and if your goalie isn't adept at peeking around him, or if he struggles with positional saves in general, those can also be problems.

It's always a trade-off for stuff like this. In general, I think the Blues are better off fronting from a system and personnel standpoint. Unfortunately, the goaltending issues behind them currently can exacerbate the drawbacks of that approach, but if Allen is struggling with his fundamentals/positioning, it's not like playing a different system is going to negate that. Making the team less effective around him isn't a viable solution. Allen has just got to player better, or the Blues need to find someone else who is a better fit for what they're trying to do here.
Is it just me or does this only seem to apply to the Blues. I always feel like the other teams can punish the Blues for being in front of the net
 

Zamadoo

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Lots of great discussion. All I have to add is that I've seen Parayko brutally assault players with crosschecks to the back many times, with no call.
 

EastonBlues22

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Lots of great discussion. All I have to add is that I've seen Parayko brutally assault players with crosschecks to the back many times, with no call.
Sure. It's not an absolute, just like the crackdown on interference doesn't mean there's no interference in today's game. You just can't get away with doing it as consistently or as much, and the texture of the game has changed as a result.

There's one vivid memory I have of Keith Tkachuk digging in and just repeatedly getting hammered from behind on the upper back and neck...maybe like 15-20 hard shots in the space of as many seconds. The sustained assault literally bent him over, which is saying something because he was a rock, and almost knocked off his helmet...but somehow he wasn't dislodged.

I haven't seen anything like that in the game in years. Players nowadays can often get away with a few shots in the mid to lower back, but any sustained assault or anything up high risks a call. It's not nearly the deterrent that it used to be, IMO.
 

Brian39

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I would agree if we had a strong borderline Starter in Chad Johnson and like Jake, he does have his moments and if Husso had NHL experience under his belt and was ready to go. Jake is the Starter and if he can't do his job it would be irresponsible of management to have Chad Johnson try to carry us with a very inexperienced Husso backing him up.

An "External" option, like the one you mention, means we are acquiring a netminder at the TDL and moneywise it makes more sense that if Jake botches his last chance that he's shipped off as a cap dump for a pick over trying to carry his contract and the new netminders.

Management blew it by not allowing Halak and Elliott do their job and we never got to see how Halak did in the playoffs for us, instead praying that Ryan Miller can walk in and be Ryan of old and he blew it. This situation is vastly different than that; this time we need a stopgap netminder if Jake can't step up. Husso isn't ready and he needs the time and the chance to be.

That's great in theory, but it is incredibly difficult to trade an anchor contract midseason. If we are looking to move Allen for a rental in January or February, that is what Allen's contract will be at that point. Swapping Allen for another goalie might be what we want to do, but you need a dance partner. Not many teams are taking on Allen's contract in order to get more value for their rental. We don't have a 1st next year, so what are you giving up for that team to take Allen and what are you giving up to get the new goalie? Suddenly, you're talking about including Bokk or Kostin for a very short term fix in net.

I think it is significantly more likely that the cap space for a rental goalie comes from a combo of moving one of Gunnar/J-Bo, cap space banked throughout the season and the trading team retaining salary. It will cost us much less to get a team to retain salary on an expiring contract than to take another 2 years of Allen if he's playing bad enough that we feel the need to move him. In this scenario, you move Allen in the summer when there is a better market for moving a bad contract.
 

Robb_K

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I am so glad you pointed this out! I was not the biggest defenseman, so I often had difficulty containing my assignment. To this day I remember what my Bantam coach said to me. (Paraphrasing) "I'm not asking you to kill the guy. You don't have to put him through the glass! All I need you to do, is just get in his way." This was back in the '70's, before there was a real crackdown on interference. Even today, you can manoeuvre your opponent to a less dangerous position without taking a penalty. Obviously, it depends on the circumstance. If Thomas Holstrom wanted to park his butt in the crease, there wasn't much anyone could do about it. IIRC, this is also how Backes and Brouwer scored a lot of their goals, particularly in the playoffs. However, I would really like someone to explain to me how a guy like Alex DeBrincat can set up right in front of our net with full autonomy. Especially if he is the assignment of someone like Colton Parayko! Pietrangelo, Edmundson, Bortuzzo and Bouwmeester are also all very big guys. They don't have to repeatedly crosscheck their assignments to the ice, as in the '90's, but they certainly can use their weight and lateral mobility to make their opponents less dangerous, if not nullified.
This says it all in a nutshell! In recent years, The Blues have allowed way too many lightweight skilled scorers to sit, unhindered right on the crease, waiting for a pass or rebound. That's ridiculous with the bulk of our defencemen being not only big and heavy, but also very mobile.
 

Dbrownss

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Defensemen dont need to try to chop down their assignment, but they can time their moves. A push on the lower back can be far more effective then non stop crosschecks.

Just playing the puck and stick is "fine" but it's a 50/50 battle. I'd like to see our guys focus more on disrupting the whole body instead of their stick
 

Ranksu

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Hah, wanna stay at front of net when Mikkola is defending it, he'll slice and dice you in to small stack.
 

shpongle falls

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I like your optimism, but if Husso and Mikkola aren't All-stars by their 3rd/4th years in the league you got some 'splainin to do!
For some reason I read this post in Ricky Ricardo's voice. :laugh:

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