All Time Draft First Round - Toronto Maple Leafs @ Montreal Wanderers

Discussion in 'All Time Draft' started by LapierreSports, May 22, 2007.

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  1. LapierreSports

    LapierreSports Registered User

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    Well, the Wanderers have secured home ice advantage for this series after finishing second in the Bob Cole division. They will face Leafs Landers Toronto Maple Leafs.


    Montreal Wanderers
    Coach: Herb Brooks
    Captain: Lionel Conacher
    Alternate Captain: Wayne Gretzky
    Alternate Captain: Dirk Graham
    Alternate Captain: Frank Nighbor

    Billy Burch - Wayne Gretzky (A) - Brett Hull
    Reg Noble - Frank Nighbor (A) - Dany Heatley
    Dirk Graham (A) - Dave Poulin - Hooley Smith
    Wendel Clark - Frank Frederickson - Bill Guerin
    Josef Malecek

    Lionel Conacher (C) - Harry Cameron
    Chris Pronger - Kevin Hatcher
    Jack Laviolette - Mike Grant
    Jiri Bubla

    George Hainsworth
    Pelle Lindbergh
    Miikka Kiprusoff

    Vs.

    Toronto Maple Leafs
    Coach -Paul Maurice
    Captain Doug Gilmour
    Alternative -Tim Horton
    Alternative -Mats Sundin
    Alternative -Guy Carbonneau

    #14 Dave Andreychuk-#93 Doug Gilmour-#20 Mike Bossy
    #8 Alexander Ovechkin -#13 Mats Sundin-#11 Daniel Alfredsson
    #8 Joe Klukay-#21 Guy Carbonneau - -#25 Darren McCarty
    #94 Ryan Smyth -#11 Bill Hay -#9! Billy Gilmour
    #16 Darcy Tucker

    #7 Tim Horton -#27 Scott Niedermayer
    #21 Bobby Baun-#3 Zdeno Chara
    #33 Al Iafrate- # 4 CG Drinkwater
    #15 Tomas Kaberle

    # 30 Mike Vernon
    # 1 Alec Connell
    #1 Frank McCool
     
    Last edited by moderator Nalyd Psycho: May 22, 2007
  2. LapierreSports

    LapierreSports Registered User

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    I will post my analysis/tactics and official starting lineups later on today...

    Coach: Herb Brooks
    Captain: Lionel Conacher
    Alternate Captain: Wayne Gretzky
    Alternate Captain: Dirk Graham
    Alternate Captain: Frank Nighbor

    Billy Burch - Wayne Gretzky (A) - Brett Hull
    Reg Noble - Frank Nighbor (A) - Dany Heatley
    Dirk Graham (A) - Dave Poulin - Hooley Smith
    Wendel Clark - Frank Frederickson - Bill Guerin
    Josef Malecek

    Lionel Conacher (C) - Harry Cameron
    Chris Pronger - Kevin Hatcher
    Jack Laviolette - Mike Grant
    Jiri Bubla

    George Hainsworth
    Pelle Lindbergh
    Miikka Kiprusoff

    PP#1

    Clark-Gretzky-Hull
    Pronger-Cameron

    PP#2

    Noble-Nighbor-Heatley
    Conacher-Hatcher

    PK#1

    Graham-Poulin
    Pronger-Conacher

    PK#2

    Nighbor-Smith
    Laviolette-Hatcher
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2007
  3. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    *note* - line 3 is my checking line. I beleive the checking line plays more then the 4th line thus they get a higher line ranking,

    Power play units:
    #14 Andreychuk-#93 Gilmour-#20 Bossy-#7 Tim Horton -#27 Niedermayer
    #8 Ovechkin -#13 Sundin-#9! Billy Gilmour-#33 Al Iafrate-#3 Zdeno Chara

    Penalty killing units:
    #8 Joe Klukay-#21 Guy Carbonneau - -#7 Tim Horton -#27 Niedermayer
    #93 Doug Gilmour-#20 Mike Bossy-#21 Bobby Baun-#3 Zdeno Chara


    Last minute when trailing:
    #8 Ovechkin-#93 Gilmour-#20 Bossy-#7 Tim Horton -#27 Niedermayer

    Last minute when leading:
    #93 Gilmour #8 Klukay-#21 Carbonneau - -#7 Horton #27 Niedermayer
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2007
  4. raleh

    raleh Registered User

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    Don't worry LL, you've already won! :)
     
  5. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    myself i didnt even vote for the playoff teams so where are the vote tallies?

    so i can see where my team stands

    note to all:

    my 3rd line is my checking line.
     
  6. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    so my team was voted last haha

    and soem said it was the best team i ever assembled but to the voters my teams last haha
     
  7. pitseleh

    pitseleh Registered User

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    With Carbonneau/Klukay matching up against Gretzky/Hull, LL has one of the teams better equipped to try to minimize the damage that line will do (obviously they will still get their points). I was disappointed with the McCarty pick, there were a few defensive players still available that would have given the Leafs the best checking line in the draft, but even with McCarty they're very solid. If they can contain the threat from the first line, they have a shot of pulling the upset.

    Neither team has great coaching, and I think this is one of the matchups where the Leafs won't be significantly hurt by having Maurice behind the bench.

    If I were the Leafs, I'd likely start Connell in net. I think it would give him a slight advantage in net.

    LL will need his forward PK'ers beyond Carbonneau/Klukay to step up.

    Montreal will need Gretzky/Hull to fight through the checking of Toronto.
     
  8. raleh

    raleh Registered User

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    Klukay-Carbo-Horton-Nieds will shut down Gretzky and Hull. To me, that's the series. Horton and Niedermayer are my favorite duo of the draft and will drive Montreal crazy. There are not many defencemen who have the hockey sense that Gretzky had, but Niedermayer is as close as it gets. Horton is the strongest player in the history of the league, Gretzky won't be able to spend as much time behind Toronto's net as he'd like if he wants to avoid the bear hug.

    Toronto wins in 6, Horton is the first star with Bossy leading the team on the other end of the ice.
     
  9. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    I'd feel a whole lot better about LL's chances if he didn't have Darren McCarty as his checking line RW. As I said before, someone like Rob Niedermayer would have been an excellent choice if LL wanted someone modern - a big, strong, fleet-footed player who can play rough or smart. Even Russ Courtnall - who teamed with Carbonneau and Mike McPhee to form an excellent checking line from about 1988 to 1991 - would have been a better choice. Can McCarty keep up with Gretzky's line? And can he stay out of the box? Do you tempt fate with Darcy Tucker on a checking line? How good was Billy Gilmour defensively?

    Maurice will get outcoached by Brooks. I agree with pit that LL should start Connell. I think Hainsworth is still the best goalie in this series, but the gap between Hainsworth and Connell is a lot smaller than Hainsworth and Vernon. Hainsworth is in the bottom third for No. 1 goalies; Connell's either a bottom two or three No. 1 or a top two or three back-up.

    I really like LL's defence and I love the Niedermayer-Horton tandem. Chara-Baun is solid, too, although nowhere near as potentially dominant as Nieds-Horton. If Iafrate's head is on straight, he could be the guys who is a difference-maker in this series. In the same breath, I love the Cameron-Conacher duo - a pairing of one guy I've always had, Cameron, and one of the few guys left out there I've always wanted to have but never have, Conacher.

    LL has a much better team than last time, and I was surprised that his team was so low. (Although outside of the Canadiens and maybe Barrie, I'm guessing that every team in that division got a couple votes for last place). I was surprised that the Wanderers finished so high, although I think everyone except for Aurora probably got some second place votes. (Sorry, arrbez, but I'd be surprised if you were on the top two for any ballot).

    If LL can stop the Gretzky line, the series is his. Even if he doesn't, and Gretzky and Hull combine for 20-25 points in a seven-game series, I think there might be enough there, with the right line-up decisions, to win in seven. (And then be dog meat for the Canadiens). We know what Carbo can do. We know what Klukay can do. We know what the top two pairings can do. Can McCarty keep up with one of the most potent lines in the draft? He might be the most scrutinized 19th round pick in draft history, and he might also prove to be the worst 19th round pick in draft history.
     
  10. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    McCarty played on a checking line for detroit when they won 3 cups

    he may be ok ;)

    and vernon won 2 cups before i cant se him as ahorrible weakeness cause i think my overall team can keep the puck.


    dougie gilmour almost beat gretzky once by himself what will he do with bossy to feed the puck too

    hall of famer billy gilmour was the goal scoring machine for the ottawa back in the early 1900'swhen they won all the cups.
     
  11. pitseleh

    pitseleh Registered User

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    Joe Kocur won a cup playing on a checking line for Detroit too, doesn't mean I'd want him in on a checking line ATD. McCarty brings a physical element, but he doesn't bring anything offensively and he isn't anything special defensively. In addition to the players mentioned, guys who went after McCarty (like Murray Balfour or Hec Kilrea) would have been better choices IMO. Don't want to make it seem like I'm picking on you, but I feel it was a bit of a missed opportunity.

    And I do agree with Connell/Hainsworth GBC. I realize now that I worded that really poorly, and when I said a slight advantage, I meant in comparison to Vernon.
     
  12. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    And what will Gretzky do now that he has Brett Hull and Billy Burch to feed the puck to? In 1993, Gretzky's options included a past his prime Jari Kurri, Luc Robitaille (who was so good in 1993 that he was benched a couple times), Thomas Sandstrom (an excellent finisher but not in Hull and Burch's league), and toughies Marty McSorely and Warren Rychel, who looked like 50-goal scorers with Gretzky.

    Gilmour did not "almost beat gretzky once by himself." A lot of players on that Leafs team played some of the best hockey in their career in 1993. Guys like Clark and Potvin played the best hockey of their career, and Glenn Anderson was typically clutch. Pat Burns was brilliant behind the bench. Andreychuk had the best playoff, production-wise, of his career. Gilmour was terrific, but he wasn't the only one.

    I think we both know that McCarty was the No. 3 man on that checking line. He played well on that Grind Line, but was he as pivotal on that line as Kris Draper and Kirk Maltby? No. I like McCarty, but in this draft, you can't afford to have a weakness. And McCarty looks to be a weakness. Is he really any better than Kevin McClelland, who played a similar role with the 80s Oilers?

    If you're going up against a soft LW, playing McCarty on him might work. Burch wasn't very tough, so maybe you've found your matchup for McCarty. But Reg Noble? I said it in the Wanderers evaluation: I think Noble's the better guy to play on the top line, because he can score and create room for Gretzky and Hull.

    Can you explain "my overall team can keep the puck?" Are you saying that you're going to employ the "my team will have the puck a lot of the time" strategy. This Montreal team is not the team to play keepaway against. Look at the team you're playing. Gretzky, Hull, Nighbor, Smith, Noble, Burch, Frederickson, Cameron and Pronger. That's just some of the stars you're facing. You aren't Team Canada at the 2005 WJC. You're in the all-time draft. The keepaway strategy doesn't work here.

    I like Mike Vernon a lot, he's always been one of my favourites but he's best suited to a back-up in a 28-team draft, who should be about the No. 35 to 40 goalie selected, and he is not a No. 1.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2007
  13. LapierreSports

    LapierreSports Registered User

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    Billy Burch - Wayne Gretzky (A) - Brett Hull

    VS

    #8 Joe Klukay-#21 Guy Carbonneau - -#25 Darren McCarty​

    Can Klukay- Carbo do it alone on this line ?? I dont think so.....Gretzky and Hull will do a lot of damage with quick passes and one timers.

    #14 Dave Andreychuk-#93 Doug Gilmour-#20 Mike Bossy

    vs

    Dirk Graham (A) - Dave Poulin - Hooley Smith

    Well this a superior checking line that brings everyting to the table.
    Bossy is the guy that will get the most attention.
     
  14. EagleBelfour

    EagleBelfour Registered User

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    You're underrating the value of Joe Klukay, as he was an awesome defensive player. Carbo is not alone on tihs line, he form a great duo with Klukay. However, I do agree McCarty seems the odd man on this one. He don't deserve to be a a atd 3rd line, even with what he has do in Detroit. Carbo/Klukay and some filler is better than Graham/Poulin/Smith line (although it's laso a great one). The main difference is that your first line is far superior to LL first line. Your 1sr line will score more goal than LL line for sure.
     
  15. LapierreSports

    LapierreSports Registered User

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    You are right about Klukay, I added him in my previous post, my bad.
     
  16. LapierreSports

    LapierreSports Registered User

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    A lot has been made of Horton and Niedermayer and rightfully so, but what about Pronger, Conacher and Cameron ? Adding to the mix, Kevin Hatcher and 2 early stars of the NHL, Laviolette and Grant, I think we have more depth. And lets face it, Hainsworth is superior then Vernon.
     
  17. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    I'm not so down of McCarty, the problem I see is that this line requires man to man coverage. And that might be too much for any unit to chew, especially without elite goaltending.

    That said, adding Horton and Neidermeyer as a 5 man unit, just may do it.

    Very much undecided on this series.
     
  18. LapierreSports

    LapierreSports Registered User

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    Also, lets be crystal clear about this, a Montreal team cannot lose against a Torontonian team.
     
  19. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    When it was coming up to time for me to grab a d-man I was thinking of how great it would be to put Conacher and Cameron together. But, that was plan B if Vasiliev didn't slip to me, instead, Conacher didn't slip to me.

    Laviolette is better known as a builder than a player, and I'm weary of players from that era who weren't great. Grant I dig. Hatcher/Iafrate are a wash to me.

    Your top 3 is great though.
     
  20. EagleBelfour

    EagleBelfour Registered User

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    Wanderers has a better 1st and second offensive line, 2nd and 3rd pairing defenseman and a better starter.

    LL has a better 3rd and 4th line, a better 1st pairing defenseman and better backups.

    If the matchup is 1st line agaisnt 3rd line for both team, the Wanderers will score about 1.5X more goals than LL. Also, the 3rd line of the Wanderers will be able to chip the occasionnal goal against LL first line.

    I'm not a big fan Heatley, but let be serious here: the Noble/Nighbor/Heatley line is FAR superior to the Ovechkin(erk!)/Sundin/Alfredsson trio. LL having a great 4th line will enable to counter a bit the Wanderers 2nd line, but at the end, you just know the Wanderers will chip more goals.

    The first pairing D of LL is an awesome first pairing, and I hope they will be on the ice every time Gretzky and Hull are on the ice. You can't counter the mighty offensive duo, but they won't dominate like they have been used to during the regular season. I love B.Baun, but Z.Chara is a big turnoff in such an impressive defensive squad. They won't be able to contain the Noble/Nighbor duo.

    On the other side the top-3 is very impressive, and the 3rd pairing is one of the best in this draft (I discovered Grant lately ... he was a STUD). If you take Hatcher out of the equation, all the other regular defenseman have offensive abilities. Some do however lack some defensive abilities.

    In goal, Hainsworth is slightly a better goaltender than Mike Vernon comes playoff time. However, in this particular serie, I think Vernon will steal the show, and will steal a game or two. With the defensive squad in fron of him and the team is playing against, I think he will do wonder. It won't be enough though.

    At last, Brooks is one of the worst coach in this draft, but he still get the edge against Paul Maurice.

    Wanderers gonna will take 2 games on the road, and will beat the Maple Leafs in 6.

    1st star: Wayne Gretzky
    2nd star: Mike Vernon
    3rd star: Frank Nighbor
     
  21. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    noone mentiosn bobby baun and zedona chara

    they aint no wallflowers people.

    graham drinkwater was a superstar defenceman who was often a roamer offensive star

    while billy gilmour scored 2 stanley cup game winning goals
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2007
  22. Frightened Inmate #2

    Frightened Inmate #2 Registered User

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    Drinkwater is an odd pick because no one knows anything about him, you say he was an offensive star, well then tell me what sort of game he played, his style of attack, his skating... you can't because he played before most of out grandparents were alive and before there was any radio coverage.... and well I can go on. You say he was an offensive star... prove it.
     
  23. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    if u read anythign about the 1890 championships drinkwaters name is always mentioned

    http://www.athletics.mcgill.ca/varsity_sports_article.ch2?article_id=81

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Drinkwater


    http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080...195002&type=Player&page=bio&list=ByName#photo
     
  24. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    Billy Burch - Wayne Gretzky (A) - Brett Hull
    vs
    #14 Dave Andreychuk-#93 Doug Gilmour-#20 Mike Bossy

    burch vs andreychuk - both players are slow burch is a midget compared to the giant andreychuk. Andreychuk has better stats and points per game then burch .Burch had the advantage of playing in the nhl during the time when the nhl wasnt the #1 hockey league in north america. That claim for a while went to the Pacific Coast Hockey Association (1911-1924). His impact is hard to truely measure because of that fact. Andreychuk was a strong offensive garbage scoring machine. No defender on your team can handle dave in his prime

    Gilmour vs gretz advatage gretz offensively but gretzky will hurt the team defensively brett hull can score but defensively he is kind of weak.Gretzky stats were also padded by playing during the offensive golden years. They will have a hard time vs niedermyer and the legendary tim horton. Bossy is the most purest goal scorer ever who came into the league during the rough and tumble 70's no one could pick a goalies weakness the way he could.Bossy was also great defensively killing pantlies and pouncing on the opponent when they messed up.

    Lionel Conacher (C) - Harry Cameron
    vs
    Tim Horton and Scott Niedermayer

    Cameron is another player from the weakend nhl. Conacher was a good defender but could these little guys move andreychuk from the net? Not likely could they out skate and out manouver a magician like dougie gilmour ? No could they stop bossy....no one could in the 70's and 80. Only one of these players have aNorris Trophy and thats scot Niedermyer.Horton was considered the strongest player ever to play during his era. His bear hugs are legednary.In hsi tiem he had teh stature of a modern era scott stevens. Huge advatage leafs


    Reg Noble - Frank Nighbor (A) - Dany Heatley
    vs
    #8 Alexander Ovechkin -#13 Mats Sundin-#11 Daniel Alfredsson

    Frank Nighbor and Reg Noble were a fine players but they both played in a weakened nhl at the same time as bill burch. Nighbor was a fine defensive player but he is no mats sundin a genticaly gifted modern player. Alfredson is a double threat he is defensive and offensive whereas heatlyis a huge weakenes. Ovechkin is agenrational talent who will have a craeer thatwill out match every player on these two lines.

    Chris Pronger - Kevin Hatcher
    vs
    #21 Bobby Baun-#3 Zdeno Chara
    pronger is a great defenceman bBaun was known as a hard-checking pure defender, and he was a mainstay of the "Big Four" of Leafs defenders in the 1960s. is a legend who had great stamina. wilk soon have his sweater # honoured by the leafs
    Hatcher is the weak link if you compare tandems advantage leafs.

    Dirk Graham (A) - Dave Poulin - Hooley Smith
    vs
    #8 Joe Klukay-#21 Guy Carbonneau - -#25 Darren McCarty
    is this a scoring line Graham Poulin Smith? I thought I was the only one who made my 3rd line the checking line. Grahem was excelant defenisvely could he match 4 time stanley cup champ Joe Klukay ..answer. no Poulin Poulin won the Frank Selke Trophy as the league's best defensive forward and the King Clancy Memorial Trophy, an award given to the player who best exemplifies leadership qualities on and off the ice and has made a noteworthy humanitarian contribution in his community. In the '93 Final, the Habs faced Wayne Gretzky and the Los Angeles Kings, and in game one the "Great One" had a goal and two assists and the Kings won 4-1. Carbo approached coach Jacques Demers and requested he be allowed to shadow number 99 the rest of the way. Montreal won the next four games. He served as Montreal captain, won three Selke trophies with the team


    Smith was a power forward but would he have the physical advantage to take on a physical force like mccarty, debatable but if he did then he has to get through the defence. so odds are thats chara or if he is on the ice iafrate. Both physical andmoble defenceman.

    checking line advantage leafs


    Wendel Clark - Frank Frederickson - Bill Guerin
    vs
    #94 Ryan Smyth -#11 Bill Hay -#9! Billy Gilmour
    clark was a great leader forthe leafgs but he never won anything and was washed up by age 30. ryan smyth is a inspirational leader and has lead a tam to the cup finals so far once in his acareer. Hay was the the offenisve gdfather forthe million dollar line in chicago and he wiill feed a offensive star like gilmour th puck to score time important goals and when gilmour misses smyth will be there to give it his all to chip the puck into the back of the net. Frederickson was astarin the 1920.s was he as good as the giant bill hay ? toss up! Bill Guerin has utilized his speed and size to become of the NHL's best two-way forwards but he was never known asasupersta and billy gilmour was! advantage leafs





    Jack Laviolette - Mike Grant
    vs
    #33 Al Iafrate- # 4 CG Drinkwater
    little is know about Laviolette.Iafrate was a gigantic defenceman who could skate like the wind, Al was a rugged d-man who could throw thunderous body checks when needed but his offensive game was the most important element of his play as he possessed copious amounts of raw skill.
    drinkwater and mike grant were playing partners. - a wash


    Jiri Bubla played just 256 nhl games used his mobility and hockey sense effectively at both ends of the ice and was a solid point man on the power play.vs Kaberle has superior hockey sense and this allows him to play with a healthy self-confidence and collects points because he possesses tremendous hockey smarts and has the ability to find his teammates on the ice. A fluid elegant swift skater, he can wheel with the puck and loves to join the attack. Is an excellent accurate passer advantage kabs

    George Hainsworth
    Pelle Lindbergh
    vs
    # 1 Alec Connell
    # 30 Mike Vernon

    Ill write this later

    Spares:
    Jiri Bubla
    Josef Malecek - any info?
    Miikka Kiprusoff -Needs to prove he can continue to raise the bar, especially with continued heavy workloads. Can he move towards elite status?

    #16 Darcy Tucker -Always comes to play and forechecks very well. inspirational leader who can provide grit and scoring.
    #15 Tomas Kaberle - se above
    #1 Frank McCool - won a cup for the leafs and was a stellar goalie in the abscence of broda.He outplayed the best on many of a night.
     

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