TV: All things Dragonball thread

[LarKing]

I didn't know the difference between the two. I bought him the Dragon Ball Z game for the switch. We play if it Often. Just the other day he tried explaining to me the difference between the two. He was pretty articulate in how explained the differences in the battles and the fighting style. He mentioned Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball Kai a few times.

A week or two ago I am flipping channels and I come across the beginning of a live-action Dragon Ball movie. Dragon Ball: Evolution. something else I didn't know existed.

When I was growing up Street Fighter was all the rage. I bought him the Street Fighter game for the Switch and he didn't take to it at all. I was disappointed.

Don’t bother with the movie and save yourself the pain. I can’t even put into words how bad that was.

 

[LarKing]

It's a lot closer to GT in overall quality than it is to Z, IMO. The attempt at storytelling in Super is really cringe-worthy and dumb-founding (GT is as well), and I would argue that GT is more structurally sound and feels less like it's just being made up on the spot (even though the execution is pretty awful), although Super does do a better job of understanding the characters/charm/attitude of the show than GT and is better at fan-service, I suppose (I'm guessing that's ultimately why people like it more). Super's kind of like an entire series that feels like weak filler/tributes to Z (even the main arcs). Neither are great in terms of animation/art/aesthetic, but the lows in Super are more laughably ugly and the consistency is all over the map (sometimes they pull out all the stops production-value-wise, like for the latest arc, but even then, the art looks pretty off/wonky to me). GT's art looks dissimilar to Z, but it has more of a consistent unique, and cohesive style of its own than Super does (whereas to me, Super's art looks like fanart of varying levels of quality that nobody can get quite right).

Overall, I would say that GT has the feel of a bad/soulless show made by people in the industry who barely have familiarity with the series and are just basing it off their notes or something, whereas Super feels like a bad show made, written, and drawn by the fans. Obviously that's not the case literally, but they give off that vibe to me.

Dragonball and Dragonball Z on the other hand are cohesive, memorable, and consistent shows with real personality/charm, effective storytelling structure, and a legitimately great aesthetic, despite the show's clear flaws/irreverence/neglect for things that probably matter.

I do legitimately like and appreciate the closing and send-off at the end of the most recent arc of Super, though. But that's kind of the only thing that stands out to me.

I think you hit most of this on the head here. GT does feel like soulless animators with no clue about the show, while Super is very fan service-y at times.

I rewatched GT a few years ago and there were literally zero redeeming factors for me though. The new characters are garbage, villains especially. The old characters get no development, GT seriously should stand for Goku Time. The arcs have so much filler, and the filler isn’t tolerable, whereas in Super I actually enjoyed the filler episodes. The baseball episode in particular had me on the floor.

Super actually introduced new characters, expanded the universe in an interesting way, had a badass villain (I loved the concept behind Goku Black, it’s a shame they f***ed up the ending so hard). Like who would’ve thought an Android would be one of the most liked characters by the end?

The animation style was a bit off in Super though I agree, like it was drawn too realistically for anime and didn’t look right because of that. I hope they go back to the new Broly movie style.

I would say Super is pretty close to the buu arc in DBZ. Some sick ideas and fights, but the execution often lets you down and there’s little explanation for how powerful characters are or how they got their new transformations. Also, the characters in both are especially stupid with decision making.

 

[Shareefruck]

I think you hit most of this on the head here. GT does feel like soulless animators with no clue about the show, while Super is very fan service-y at times.

I rewatched GT a few years ago and there were literally zero redeeming factors for me though. The new characters are garbage, villains especially. The old characters get no development, GT seriously should stand for Goku Time. The arcs have so much filler, and the filler isn’t tolerable, whereas in Super I actually enjoyed the filler episodes. The baseball episode in particular had me on the floor.

Super actually introduced new characters, expanded the universe in an interesting way, had a badass villain (I loved the concept behind Goku Black, it’s a shame they ****ed up the ending so hard). Like who would’ve thought an Android would be one of the most liked characters by the end?

The animation style was a bit off in Super though I agree, like it was drawn too realistically for anime and didn’t look right because of that. I hope they go back to the new Broly movie style.

I would say Super is pretty close to the buu arc in DBZ. Some sick ideas and fights, but the execution often lets you down and there’s little explanation for how powerful characters are or how they got their new transformations. Also, the characters in both are especially stupid with decision making.

I actually enjoyed the Buu arc (albeit not as much as the stuff before it). I think I recall a few stretches that I didn't care for (like that Babidi tower), but the silliness reminds me of the original and everything that doesn't make sense is done in the name of genuine fun (something that Toriyama's good at)-- it still feels organic and is tightly executed in that context, and the animation/art/set pieces are as good as anything in the series.

Super's idea of fun and silliness just feels completely tasteless/cheap/annoying to me, and I can't stand the way it looks (it looks waayy below standards for a popular Anime, IMO, which is something you could never have said about the series in its original run).

 

[Son Goku]

I didn't know the difference between the two. I bought him the Dragon Ball Z game for the switch. We play if it Often. Just the other day he tried explaining to me the difference between the two. He was pretty articulate in how explained the differences in the battles and the fighting style. He mentioned Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball Kai a few times.

A week or two ago I am flipping channels and I come across the beginning of a live-action Dragon Ball movie. Dragon Ball: Evolution. something else I didn't know existed.

When I was growing up Street Fighter was all the rage. I bought him the Street Fighter game for the Switch and he didn't take to it at all. I was disappointed.

Thats so cool. Not sure if you're into the show as well but its definitely good you should give it a go! Timeline for shows as such:

Dragonball
Dragonball Z
Dragonball Super

(GT isn't canon to the story neither is heroes)

By the way, never mention the live action film agaim. Its an absolute disgrace.

 

[Son Goku]

I think you hit most of this on the head here. GT does feel like soulless animators with no clue about the show, while Super is very fan service-y at times.

I rewatched GT a few years ago and there were literally zero redeeming factors for me though. The new characters are garbage, villains especially. The old characters get no development, GT seriously should stand for Goku Time. The arcs have so much filler, and the filler isn’t tolerable, whereas in Super I actually enjoyed the filler episodes. The baseball episode in particular had me on the floor.

Super actually introduced new characters, expanded the universe in an interesting way, had a badass villain (I loved the concept behind Goku Black, it’s a shame they ****ed up the ending so hard). Like who would’ve thought an Android would be one of the most liked characters by the end?

The animation style was a bit off in Super though I agree, like it was drawn too realistically for anime and didn’t look right because of that. I hope they go back to the new Broly movie style.

I would say Super is pretty close to the buu arc in DBZ. Some sick ideas and fights, but the execution often lets you down and there’s little explanation for how powerful characters are or how they got their new transformations. Also, the characters in both are especially stupid with decision making.

The animation crews were different in certain parts of Super, they only used top notch animators in important episodes. Honestly to me, the animation was only bad in the BoG arc. Everything else seemed smooth to me, except for a few filler episodes, which lets be fair, the few top notch animators they had wouldn't want to work on filler episodes.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

The only thing I liked about DBZ following the Frieza saga was the addition of Satan as comic relief. His catalystic friendship/servitude with Buu was done well.

 

[Unholy]

Dragon Ball tournaments were the GOAT.

Then of course the transformations in Z and seeing those for the first time as a kid.

 

[Son Goku]

The only thing I liked about DBZ following the Frieza saga was the addition of Satan as comic relief. His catalystic friendship/servitude with Buu was done well.

Its funny in super as well.

 

[Baby Punisher]

Thats so cool. Not sure if you're into the show as well but its definitely good you should give it a go! Timeline for shows as such:

Dragonball
Dragonball Z
Dragonball Super

(GT isn't canon to the story neither is heroes)

By the way, never mention the live action film agaim. Its an absolute disgrace.

I watch it with him from time to time. I usually fall asleep.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Vegeta has always been #1.

 

[Son Goku]

Vegeta has always been #1.

Nah, he always chases Goku in ability tbh. Oh wait did you mean Ovechkin?

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Nah, he always chases Goku in ability tbh. Oh wait did you mean Ovechkin?

Well the main things Goku has that Vegeta doesn't (kaioken, spirit bomb, ssj3), Goku learned because he was always dead. So I reply by saying Vegeta wasn't weak enough to die so he couldn't learn those

Also, Vegeta reached SSJG without the energy of the others so Vegeta > Goku

 

[Son Goku]

Well the main things Goku has that Vegeta doesn't (kaioken, spirit bomb, ssj3), Goku learned because he was always dead. So I reply by saying Vegeta wasn't weak enough to die so he couldn't learn those

Also, Vegeta reached SSJG without the energy of the others so Vegeta > Goku

Goku died by sacrifice usually something Vegeta could never wrap his selfish mind around until the buu arc, and even then he let another being control him so technically that wasn't even his power. I'll give you SSJG though, that's pretty badass.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Goku died by sacrifice usually something Vegeta could never wrap his selfish mind around until the buu arc, and even then he let another being control him so technically that wasn't even his power. I'll give you SSJG though, that's pretty badass.

I'm pretty sure it was his power, he was SSJ2 by then. Well before being taken over, he said that he and Goku were a lot stronger than Gohan. Also, whether it was his power or not, it's the thought that counts lol. Vegeta helped out a lot before buu too and was selfless. On namek he healed Goku when he could have killed him. When gohan and co were too scared to fight Frieza, it was Vegeta who took the beating which gave Goku enough time to recover. He saved Goku vs 19. And he gave that assist vs Cell. I don't know if he cared about the whole team, but Vegeta always cared about Goku's well being (yes, so he could beat him himself lol) and respected Gohan's power.

 

[Son Goku]

I'm pretty sure it was his power, he was SSJ2 by then. Well before being taken over, he said that he and Goku were a lot stronger than Gohan. Also, whether it was his power or not, it's the thought that counts lol. Vegeta helped out a lot before buu too and was selfless. On namek he healed Goku when he could have killed him. When gohan and co were too scared to fight Frieza, it was Vegeta who took the beating which gave Goku enough time to recover. He saved Goku vs 19. And he gave that assist vs Cell. I don't know if he cared about the whole team, but Vegeta always cared about Goku's well being (yes, so he could beat him himself lol) and respected Gohan's power.

I like you a lot more now that I know you're a Dragonball fan maybe there is hope!

 

[ArGarBarGar]

The only thing I liked about DBZ following the Frieza saga was the addition of Satan as comic relief. His catalystic friendship/servitude with Buu was done well.

You didn't like the Cell saga?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

You didn't like the Cell saga?

I think it's kind of where the whole operation started going off the rails, starting with Future Trunks first appearance. It's where plot devices started to feel inauthentic and just as a lazy way for characters to get major power boosts in shorts periods of time (the time chamber being the most obvious example). Where as senseless stuff had always been around, starting with the original Dragon Ball, they at least felt tongue-in-cheek and humorous. Starting with the Cell Saga, they seemed to require to be taken seriously. For example, an on and off fighter like Gohan reaching Super Saiyan at 9 while legendary and dedicated brawlers like Vegeta and Goku had to have their fighting and emotional insticts stretched to the utmost limits for them to reach that same level felt cheap to me. Then the Buu saga just blows the whole thing out of proportion with Kid Trunks and Goten.

That's also where the fighting scenes lose their appeal. You never get a fight like Gohan/Krilin against the weird green thingy that's part of the Ginyu Force anymore, for example. And that was a great one.

I'd rank the sagas like this:

Frieza Saga (Great. The peak of DBZ. The rat race for the Dragon Balls between the Earthlings, The Namekians, a renegade Vegeta and the Frieza syndicate was perfect. It's also the last time the actual Dragon Balls felt important as opposed to a lazy way to have everything go back to normal.)

Saiyan Saga (Great. Puts all the character dynamics in place and sets the tone for Frieza. The Vegeta and Goku fight might be my favorite of the series. It's also the only time Goku is actually bested. Vegeta won.)

Cell Saga (Mediocre)

Buu Saga (Awful)

 

[Shareefruck]

Definitely agree that original DB/Saiyan/Freeza saga were the best, although I find the Saiyan/Freeza arcs pretty interchangeable. The stretch from Saibamen to Vegeta escaping earth is the most memorable stretch in the series, for my money-- and is it just me or does that Kamehameha vs. Galick Gun moment just aesthetically/visually/color-wise look cooler than anything else in the series, even after the art improved? Freeza saga was more consistent/tight from beginning to end, though, whereas the training period in the Saiyan saga wasn't very good.

As for the rest.... it all depends on where your bar is for what is considered fun/good/bad and what your tolerance is for the nonsense that is always present in the series. Depending on how forgiving/critical I'm feeling, there's a part of me that thinks Dragonball as a whole was never good to begin with, another part of me that thinks it was good and then became awful after the Freeza saga, another part of me that thinks it was good and became awful in the Buu saga, and part of me that thinks it was good and became awful after that. It's a show with a ton of flaws that sort of goes on a downward spiral where the positive charms that previously made up for them became progressively less and less visible/redeeming.

 

[Son Goku]

I think it's kind of where the whole operation started going off the rails, starting with Future Trunks first appearance. It's where plot devices started to feel inauthentic and just as a lazy way for characters to get major power boosts in shorts periods of time (the time chamber being the most obvious example). Where as senseless stuff had always been around, starting with the original Dragon Ball, they at least felt tongue-in-cheek and humorous. Starting with the Cell Saga, they seemed to require to be taken seriously. For example, an on and off fighter like Gohan reaching Super Saiyan at 9 while legendary and dedicated brawlers like Vegeta and Goku had to have their fighting and emotional insticts stretched to the utmost limits for them to reach that same level felt cheap to me. Then the Buu saga just blows the whole thing out of proportion with Kid Trunks and Goten.

That's also where the fighting scenes lose their appeal. You never get a fight like Gohan/Krilin against the weird green thingy that's part of the Ginyu Force anymore, for example. And that was a great one.

I'd rank the sagas like this:

Frieza Saga (Great. The peak of DBZ. The rat race for the Dragon Balls between the Earthlings, The Namekians, a renegade Vegeta and the Frieza syndicate was perfect. It's also the last time the actual Dragon Balls felt important as opposed to a lazy way to have everything go back to normal.)

Saiyan Saga (Great. Puts all the character dynamics in place and sets the tone for Frieza. The Vegeta and Goku fight might be my favorite of the series. It's also the only time Goku is actually bested. Vegeta won.)

Cell Saga (Mediocre)

Buu Saga (Awful)

I'm guessing you're not a fan of the kaioken, because Goku won.

 

[Son Goku]

Definitely agree that original DB/Saiyan/Freeza saga were the best, although I find the Saiyan/Freeza arcs pretty interchangeable. The stretch from Saibamen to Vegeta escaping earth is the most memorable stretch in the series, for my money-- and is it just me or does that Kamehameha vs. Galick Gun moment just aesthetically/visually/color-wise look cooler than anything else in the series, even after the art improved? Freeza saga was more consistent/tight from beginning to end, though, whereas the training period in the Saiyan saga wasn't very good.

As for the rest.... it all depends on where your bar is for what is considered fun/good/bad and what your tolerance is for the nonsense that is always present in the series. Depending on how forgiving/critical I'm feeling, there's a part of me that thinks Dragonball as a whole was never good to begin with, another part of me that thinks it was good and then became awful after the Freeza saga, another part of me that thinks it was good and became awful in the Buu saga, and part of me that thinks it was good and became awful after that. It's a show with a ton of flaws that sort of goes on a downward spiral where the positive charms that previously made up for them became progressively less and less visible/redeeming.

I just can't agree with this. Dragonball Z was great beginning to end IMO. It was never meant to be a flawless show, the original Dragonball was almost a parody. Plot wise and character development wise DB is easily the best of the franchise, but I enjoy the power DBZ characters had.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Definitely agree that original DB/Saiyan/Freeza saga were the best, although I find the Saiyan/Freeza arcs pretty interchangeable. The stretch from Saibamen to Vegeta escaping earth is the most memorable stretch in the series, for my money-- and is it just me or does that Kamehameha vs. Galick Gun moment just aesthetically/visually/color-wise look cooler than anything else in the series, even after the art improved? Freeza saga was more consistent/tight from beginning to end, though, whereas the training period in the Saiyan saga wasn't very good.

As for the rest.... it all depends on where your bar is for what is considered fun/good/bad and what your tolerance is for the nonsense that is always present in the series. Depending on how forgiving/critical I'm feeling, there's a part of me that thinks Dragonball as a whole was never good to begin with, another part of me that thinks it was good and then became awful after the Freeza saga, another part of me that thinks it was good and became awful in the Buu saga, and part of me that thinks it was good and became awful after that. It's a show with a ton of flaws that sort of goes on a downward spiral where the positive charms that previously made up for them became progressively less and less visible/redeeming.

More than the actual blasts, I thought Vegeta's build-up looked great.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I'm guessing you're not a fan of the kaioken, because Goku won.

I haven't watched it in ages, but doesn't Vegeta turn into a giant ape after that and renders him useless?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I just can't agree with this. Dragonball Z was great beginning to end IMO. It was never meant to be a flawless show, the original Dragonball was almost a parody. Plot wise and character development wise DB is easily the best of the franchise, but I enjoy the power DBZ characters had.

That it was never meant to be a flawless show doesn't excuse the y'know...flaws. Personally, I think it got to a point where the powers were too stupid and the gimmicks annoying. Like fusion, for example. Okay, so two kids who've lived a sheltered life not only can become super saiyans (lol) but can go SS3 when they fuse together? That's just the sort of insult to the viewer/reader that sours the experience for me.

 

[Son Goku]

That it was never meant to be a flawless show doesn't excuse the y'know...flaws. Personally, I think it got to a point where the powers were too stupid and the gimmicks annoying. Like fusion, for example. Okay, so two kids who've lived a sheltered life not only can become super saiyans (lol) but can go SS3 when they fuse together? That's just the sort of insult to the viewer/reader that sours the experience for me.

I agree with that it felt cheap. I think it had something to due with how many "z" cells they have in their body. Hense why the newer characters like Cabba can do it so easily. So technically if Gohan, Trunks, Goten, etc. Lived up to their potential they could far surpass their fathers.

 

[Son Goku]

Here's a good video to explain the plans for Dragonball Super in 2019. He's also someone good to follow. Never puts out faulty information.