There's a lot of guys who are on the Vezina radar, but I don't see anything wrong with having Gibson/Bobrovsky/Quick/etc. ahead of him.
All-star teams vs major awards
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Johnny Engine
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I wouldn't hire a writer to manage a team if I owned one either, but that doesn't really check out. When it comes down to it, a tiny number of writers and GMs registered any opinion of Andersen at all - he was on 6 total ballots between 31 GMs and over 100 writers. If you had them put their heads together and rank the goalies as a collective, there's nothing to suggest either group would put Andersen 4th or 11th.
There was a lot of hand-wringing and consternation at the beginning of the season when he looked kind of bad behind a run and gun Leafs team that tightened up later. I would imagine that most in the business would regard that run as the necessary part of the process in a long season, but media guys wouldn't forget the "what's wrong with Freddy" articles they filed about a dozen times before the end of November.
Hockey Outsider
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This thread has been updated for 2019.
For the most part, the results were typical. The Hart, Art Ross, Vezina and Norris trophy winners were all first-team all-stars.
O'Reilly won both the Selke and Conn Smythe, and Pettersson won the Calder. They both finished out of the top three in year-end all-star voting, which is the most common result for winners of those trophies.
For the most part, the results were typical. The Hart, Art Ross, Vezina and Norris trophy winners were all first-team all-stars.
O'Reilly won both the Selke and Conn Smythe, and Pettersson won the Calder. They both finished out of the top three in year-end all-star voting, which is the most common result for winners of those trophies.
vadim sharifijanov
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it’s odd that mcdavid has three straight first team all-stars at center but has been 1st, 3rd, and 2nd in hart voting among centers. and neither the 3rd nor 2nd were close calls either.
a clear discrepancy seems to be being made here between the best center and the most valuable.
a clear discrepancy seems to be being made here between the best center and the most valuable.
The Panther
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I think there is a discrepancy happening recently, and it's for two reasons:
1) The Ted Lindsay award (formerly Pearson) is a much higher-status and higher-profile award now than it was in the mid-80s through 90s (I don't know about before that). When I was a kid, the Pearson was low-profile and it wasn't even presented (or mentioned, I think) at the NHL awards ceremony. The players clearly didn't take it that seriously, judging by the '86 and '89 results. This award's becoming higher status means that voters can now more clearly distinguish between "most valuable" and "best" without short-changing the latter too much in hardware.
2) There are too many teams now. It makes sense to 'divvy' up the awards more with so many pro players.
Hockey Outsider
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This thread has been updated for 2020.
For the most part, the results were typical. The Hart, Art Ross, Vezina and Norris trophy winners were all first-team all-stars.
Kyle Makar won the Calder and was a third-team all-star (this is rare - only 12 of the 83 Calder winners have finished in the top three in all-star voting that year).
The Stanley Cup finals are still on (game 3 starting shortly...) so we don't know who the Conn Smythe trophy winner is yet. I'll do a final update once we know.
For the most part, the results were typical. The Hart, Art Ross, Vezina and Norris trophy winners were all first-team all-stars.
Kyle Makar won the Calder and was a third-team all-star (this is rare - only 12 of the 83 Calder winners have finished in the top three in all-star voting that year).
The Stanley Cup finals are still on (game 3 starting shortly...) so we don't know who the Conn Smythe trophy winner is yet. I'll do a final update once we know.
LeBlondeDemon10
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Dennis Bonvie
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CambieKev
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With so many teams in the league and so many games happening at the same time, I think hockey writers are forced to rely on statistics and hearsay now more than ever to evaluate players. Stats are much more readily available, especially advanced stats, and voters take advantage of this resource to fill in some of those gaps in overall knowledge.
In the O6 era, in a 70-game schedule, the hockey-writing community only ever saw players from six squads, all within close geographical proximity to one another. And they saw them over and over again, making it easier to evaluate players with multiple viewings.
Every team saw each other 14 times.
There are, thus, probably more outliers these days due to the monumental task of having to track the stories of all 600+ players across 31, soon to be 32, cities. The awards voting in the O6 era was, in all likelihood, a better reflection of the players who most deserved votes compared to the modern era. The circumstances make evaluations more difficult.
Quite a few beat writers are also busy covering their own teams' players. Even with the availability of televised broadcasts, I don't think they have enough opportunities to view a sufficient number of out-of-market matches. One can certainly look at the stat lines, but there's quite a lot about how a player elevates their team that isn't quite as apparent in one's point totals.
In the O6 era, in a 70-game schedule, the hockey-writing community only ever saw players from six squads, all within close geographical proximity to one another. And they saw them over and over again, making it easier to evaluate players with multiple viewings.
Every team saw each other 14 times.
There are, thus, probably more outliers these days due to the monumental task of having to track the stories of all 600+ players across 31, soon to be 32, cities. The awards voting in the O6 era was, in all likelihood, a better reflection of the players who most deserved votes compared to the modern era. The circumstances make evaluations more difficult.
Quite a few beat writers are also busy covering their own teams' players. Even with the availability of televised broadcasts, I don't think they have enough opportunities to view a sufficient number of out-of-market matches. One can certainly look at the stat lines, but there's quite a lot about how a player elevates their team that isn't quite as apparent in one's point totals.
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Hockey Outsider
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This thread has been updated for 2021.
For the most part, the results were typical. The Hart, Art Ross, and Norris trophy winners were all first-team all-stars. The Selke and Calder winners weren't top three in all-star voting (which is also typical).
There was one relatively uncommon result. Marc-Andre Fleury won the Vezina, but was 2nd in all-star voting (Andrei Vasilevskiy was on the 1st team). That's only happened twice prior to this - in 2002 and 2008. It shows that the GMs (who vote for the Vezina) and the media (who vote for the all-star teams) sometimes have differences in opinion.
The Stanley Cup finals are still on (game 2 is tonight). We don't know who the Conn Smythe trophy winner is yet. It looks to be a three-horse race between Price (if Montreal wins) and Kucherov or Point (if Tampa wins). None of them were top three in all-star voting this year.
For the most part, the results were typical. The Hart, Art Ross, and Norris trophy winners were all first-team all-stars. The Selke and Calder winners weren't top three in all-star voting (which is also typical).
There was one relatively uncommon result. Marc-Andre Fleury won the Vezina, but was 2nd in all-star voting (Andrei Vasilevskiy was on the 1st team). That's only happened twice prior to this - in 2002 and 2008. It shows that the GMs (who vote for the Vezina) and the media (who vote for the all-star teams) sometimes have differences in opinion.
The Stanley Cup finals are still on (game 2 is tonight). We don't know who the Conn Smythe trophy winner is yet. It looks to be a three-horse race between Price (if Montreal wins) and Kucherov or Point (if Tampa wins). None of them were top three in all-star voting this year.
Czech Your Math
I am lizard king
Hockey Outsider
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You're right - as of today, each of Vasilevskiy, Hedman, Kucherov and Point probably have an argument (if Tampa Bay wins... which is looking likely). We'll find out in the next week or so.
Hockey Outsider
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Looks like you were right. I thought it was Kucherov's to lose heading into the SC Finals. He played well, but Vasilevskiy was probably a bit better.
He's now one of only 12 players to win the Conn Smythe, and be the first-team all-star, in the same season.
Hockey Outsider
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This thread has been updated for 2022.
The results were typical, for the most part. The winners of the Hart, Norris and Vezina were first-team all-stars. The winners of Calder and Selke weren't in the top three in all-star voting.
The only unusual result was the Art Ross winner (Connor McDavid) earned a spot on the second team. Going back to 1929-30 (when they first started picking year-end all-star teams - a span of 91 seasons), this was only the 11th time the Art Ross winner didn't place on the first team. Several of the other instances, including the three most recent prior to this (1994, 2013, 2015) involved the Art Ross winner play on a non-playoff team.
I'll update this thread once we know who wins the Conn Smythe. As of now (after Colorado's Game 4 victory), you'd have to think that Cale Makar (the reigning Norris winner and first-team all-star) is the favourite.
(EDIT - Makar won the Conn Smythe, so that's been reflected in the previous post).
The results were typical, for the most part. The winners of the Hart, Norris and Vezina were first-team all-stars. The winners of Calder and Selke weren't in the top three in all-star voting.
The only unusual result was the Art Ross winner (Connor McDavid) earned a spot on the second team. Going back to 1929-30 (when they first started picking year-end all-star teams - a span of 91 seasons), this was only the 11th time the Art Ross winner didn't place on the first team. Several of the other instances, including the three most recent prior to this (1994, 2013, 2015) involved the Art Ross winner play on a non-playoff team.
I'll update this thread once we know who wins the Conn Smythe. As of now (after Colorado's Game 4 victory), you'd have to think that Cale Makar (the reigning Norris winner and first-team all-star) is the favourite.
(EDIT - Makar won the Conn Smythe, so that's been reflected in the previous post).
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Hockey Outsider
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Mitch Marner became the 6th RW going back to expansion (1967-68) to be a first-team all-star, while receiving zero Hart trophy votes. (This has never happened for any centre, but it's happened quite often for LW):
Ken Hodge 1971
- 1st in scoring among RW, 4th in scoring overall
- Only 4th on Bobby Orr's powerhouse Bruins in scoring
Rod Gilbert 1972
- 1st in scoring among RW, 5th in scoring overall
- Only 3rd on the Rangers in scoring ("GAG line")
Jari Kurri 1987
- 1st in scoring among RW, 2nd in scoring overall, great two-way play
- But nobody is "more valuable" than peak Gretzky
Hakan Loob 1988
- 1st in scoring among RW, 9th in scoring overall
- He led the team in scoring but this was a very strong, deep team, and Loob was one of four Flames with 90+ points
Jakub Voracek 2015
-1st in scoring among RW, 4th in scoring overall
- This was a year where it felt like there were relatively weak top-end performances (Jamie Benn, John Tavares and Jakub Voracek were three of the top five scorers). Despite Voracek leading the Flyers in scoring, the perception was Claude Giroux was the better player (even if he didn't necessarily have the better season).
Mitch Marner 2022
- 1st in scoring among RW, 10th in scoring overall
- It felt like there were a lot of strong Hart candidates this year, and Matthews was clearly more valuable
In all six cases, it looks like the writers made the safe/default pick, and chose the highest-scoring RW as the first-team all-star.
Ken Hodge 1971
- 1st in scoring among RW, 4th in scoring overall
- Only 4th on Bobby Orr's powerhouse Bruins in scoring
Rod Gilbert 1972
- 1st in scoring among RW, 5th in scoring overall
- Only 3rd on the Rangers in scoring ("GAG line")
Jari Kurri 1987
- 1st in scoring among RW, 2nd in scoring overall, great two-way play
- But nobody is "more valuable" than peak Gretzky
Hakan Loob 1988
- 1st in scoring among RW, 9th in scoring overall
- He led the team in scoring but this was a very strong, deep team, and Loob was one of four Flames with 90+ points
Jakub Voracek 2015
-1st in scoring among RW, 4th in scoring overall
- This was a year where it felt like there were relatively weak top-end performances (Jamie Benn, John Tavares and Jakub Voracek were three of the top five scorers). Despite Voracek leading the Flyers in scoring, the perception was Claude Giroux was the better player (even if he didn't necessarily have the better season).
Mitch Marner 2022
- 1st in scoring among RW, 10th in scoring overall
- It felt like there were a lot of strong Hart candidates this year, and Matthews was clearly more valuable
In all six cases, it looks like the writers made the safe/default pick, and chose the highest-scoring RW as the first-team all-star.
Voight
#winning
That season was somewhat of an outlier for Voracek given previous and post production (tho he did score 85 in 2018 when Giroux had his resurgent year)
Matt Tkachuk was considered a RW and had 7 more points than him. Tkachuk and Marner had a similar number of 1st team votes but Marner won decidedly on 2nd team votes. I think the perception is that Tkachuk is more reliant on Gaudreau (and Lindholm) than Marner is on Matthews.
Hockey Outsider
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Good catch, you're right. I keep thinking Matt Tkachuk is LW, most likely because I'm mixing him up with his father.
Hockey Outsider
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This thread has been updated for 2023. The results were typical. The winners of the Hart, Art Ross, Norris and Vezina were first-team all-stars. The winners of Calder and Selke weren't in the top three in all-star voting.
