Rugby: All rugby discussion

[I am not exposed]

Know I didn't post it here, but I did pick France to win the 6 nations this year.

 

[I am not exposed]

Well the Pommes weren't good enough

On a more serious note, when you pick arbitrary cut-off points you're going to get poor selections. Every single player on this list is brilliant, Richie and Carter best to ever play the game, but have the 5 years they played in the last decade been enough to make the team? For Richie, I'd say yes, for Dan who missed the '11 WC because of injury I'm not really sure even though he's my favorite player of all time alongside BOD, I might give a nod to Sexton, as I think Beaudy didn't play enough at #10. Pocock at 6? Really? Just seems like a cheap attempt to shoe-horn him in. He didn't play 6 a lot and he certainly didn't have his best years there. I'd have Ried over Parisse personally, and I have no idea how Bismarck and North made the team. BOD I don't know what to think. He played only 5 years and his best years were before the turn of the decade. I think Davies is more deserving of the spot, compared to BOD or Conrad Smith.

Props are fine I guess, especially Tendai, even though Franks isn't my favorite player and I might rate Furlong higher. Locks are spot on IMHO, Etzhebeth might have a case or Alun Wyn, but Brodie was the world player of the year as a lock which is quite an accomplishment and Whitelock is just a beast. As for #2, I'd pick Coles just for his peak. I know he had a lot of injury issues and didn't play a lot, but at his peak, he was just insane, might be the best hooker ever. Going peak in 2010s is interesting, I would have it like this:

Tendai - Coles - Furlong
McCaw - Whitelock - Retallick - du Toit
Ried
Murray - Carter - Nonu - C. Smith
Habana - B. Smith - Savea

I was tempted to put in Beaudy over Dan or Ben Smith, but I just can't do that. Carter was immense in 2015 and Ben is just a brilliant fullback. Beaudy had chase down tackles and when attacking from the 2nd level is just unfair, but Ben is so good defensively, so smart with his kicking, such an amazing support runner etc, can't go against him. Murray over Aaron Smith is also a tough one, but I rate Murray as the best scrum-half in the game.

Parisse is one of the most overrated players of all time. No way he should be the number 8 for team of the decade. Yeah, he's a good player for Italy, and has standout games for them. But he's not this amazing player a lot of pundits make him out to be. He gets hyped up because he's a good player from a not very good team.

 

[S E P H]

Stuart Hogg showing us lot how he should still be considered a generational talent.

 

[BMann]

Might be a dumb question to ask on here, but anyone bother to follow MLR?

I am keeping an eye on how it develops. The US union is in all sorts of financial problems. And Canadian rugby is going backwards because the administrators at the union have not got a clue.

​

Someone with a few brain cells can turn this around. Norm Hadley warned all about this but the suits did not listen to the legend and Canadian rugby is where it is now. Declining. The only hope is to get the 3 professional teams in the MLR and from that maybe get one or two of the younger players like Andrew Coe into Europe.

MLR will be great for the South American teams outside of Argentina to give some of their players a professional regimen of training especially Chile and Brazil bearing in mind there is a professional competition now in South America with six franchises including Cafeteros in Colombia, Santos in Brazil and Penarol in Uruguay. What is more some experienced ex internationals from the tier one teams are in the MLR now. They can pass on their knowledge and tips to young American players particularly those who are sixteen along with some very experienced European coaches. Because and it is no slight against the American teams and their coaching staff they simply not up to scratch.

The other benefit albeit short term could be to naturalize some of the younger players. For instance there is a strong influx of young Afrikaaners who have played for some very strong sides in South Africa or those who have settled in the US and bring their rugby with them like Ruben de Haas. US Rugby also needs to get the NCAA to treat mens rugby as a varsity sport which womens rugby already is. And better still get more kids playing at an early age in traditional rugby areas like Utah, NY. The earlier kids pick up the game instead of at college the better they will be at the sport. The encouraging thing is that the sport is growing fast across the country.

Ironically rugby union dominated in America in the late 19th century. But refusal to allow professionals meant that the best rugby players and whole sides switched to American football.

 

[BMann]

I mean, I quoted you how many times now? Deny all you want, then thanks the scholarships, culture, economic possibilities and AB name for all the talent that comes to NZ.



We'll never know for sure what would have happened, but most probably ABs would have been a worse team. Having GOOD islanders, one way or the other, helps, period.

Most ABs are born and raised in NZ. The issue is with the likes of Australia, NZ, England and France for instance taking kids from the islands on scholarships cherry picking the best juniors. Or as with the Fijians taking players who have played in the u20 side. These unions use their financial muscle to the detriment of the islanders.

NZ and Australia rarely play the islanders, kicked Western Samoa out of the Super 10 and only now have invited a Fiji team into the new SR competition which may help Fiji. These are issues. Sending the odd head coach and clinic to these islands is not really enough.

 

[Fighter]

In 20 years, if anything, I have to admit that Italy has regressed instead of improving. I think that the economic problems the whole country has had in the past years have ravaged our national league to the point that we had only two teams playing higher level rugby (Benetton and Zebre) in another league and the rest got absolutely nuked. The results are under the eyes of everybody, the generation of Parisse, Masi, Castrogiovanni, Zanni is gone... We have a bunch of youngsters which have limited international experience and, honestly, much less talent.
Wooden spoon and white wash is assured yet again in this Six Nations, I wonder if Georgia might beat us at this point, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Parisse is one of the most overrated players of all time. No way he should be the number 8 for team of the decade. Yeah, he's a good player for Italy, and has standout games for them. But he's not this amazing player a lot of pundits make him out to be. He gets hyped up because he's a good player from a not very good team.

Did you ever watch him outside of international play? He was absolutely class for Stade Francais and pulled off some moments of magic for Toulon when he and they were both well past their best.

He would've been the starting #8 on any international team other than the All Blacks when Kieran Read was on form, and I'd argue he was the better all-around footballer just because of the presence and innovation he had to have on a weaker team. I mean like in terms of going for a cheeky kick over the top sort of the thing, the sort of stuff you'd give a fine for "forwards kicking" at grass roots pub rugby level, the only other international 8 who'd have the audacity to attempt that sort of thing would be someone like Faletau for Wales. When you play for Italy you've got to have the balls to try something like that, and Parisse certainly possessed the skills to do it.

Parisse had the carrying ability of a world class 8, the standard pace of a 7, the lineout taking ability of most locks, an offload in contact to match any centre, as well as a kicking ability to top any forward other than the greatest pound for pound player of all time; Gethin Jenkins.

 

[Siamese Dream]

In 20 years, if anything, I have to admit that Italy has regressed instead of improving. I think that the economic problems the whole country has had in the past years have ravaged our national league to the point that we had only two teams playing higher level rugby (Benetton and Zebre) in another league and the rest got absolutely nuked. The results are under the eyes of everybody, the generation of Parisse, Masi, Castrogiovanni, Zanni is gone... We have a bunch of youngsters which have limited international experience and, honestly, much less talent.
Wooden spoon and white wash is assured yet again in this Six Nations, I wonder if Georgia might beat us at this point, I wouldn't be surprised.

I don't know about that, I see huge potential in Varney and Garbisi as a half-back pairing. They are just very inexperienced and lack the complimenting veteran presence. The big defeat against France was more an indication of how good France actually are rather than Italy being bad.

Honestly Italy played some very positive rugby in the first half against France last week and had a lot of territory and possession, but all their work kept getting undone by handling errors and such inside the attacking 22 which killed all momentum and resulted in breaks the other way. The defensive organisation and tackling definitely left a lot to be desired but honestly I think France really were just that good. Going forward there definitely are some positives for Italy.

The whole edgy argument of "replace Italy with Georgia" I think has been thoroughly debunked at this point. Didn't Italy smash them last time they played them? And Georgia played a series of games in Europe in the autumn and got uttely ruined by everyone except Fiji who hadn't played another other games because of covid cases.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Scotland up 17-3 on Wales. Is this the year?

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Turns out..maybe not.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Scotland just bungled that badly. A failure of nerve if there ever was one.

 

[Siamese Dream]

I thought the red card was extremely harsh. The extent of the head contact looked far too inconclusive to me. Scotland definitely deserved to win, this is their best team in years.

Rees-Zammit is going to be a star. Wouldn't be surprised if he goes on to break Shane Williams' try record

 

[Siamese Dream]

Also another poor performance from England, they did play much more positively and got the backs more involved but Daly and Youngs absolutely useless. They were lucky Garbisi had a bad game, some of his kicking was very poor compared to last week against France, other than that it was a more well-rounded performance by Italy.

Though the biggest travesty from an English perspective during that game was ITV's studio panel of dinosaurs still making a living off the back of the 2003 world cup (Jonny Wilkinson, Lawrence Dallaglio, and Clive Woodward) with the latter unashamedly declaring he'd never watched Ollie Lawrence play for Worcester

 

[Fighter]

Honestly Italy played some very positive rugby in the first half against France last week and had a lot of territory and possession, but all their work kept getting undone by handling errors and such inside the attacking 22 which killed all momentum and resulted in breaks the other way. The defensive organisation and tackling definitely left a lot to be desired but honestly I think France really were just that good. Going forward there definitely are some positives for Italy.

Pretty much it's the story of Italy for more than a decade, but we still lack the kicks of Diego Dominguez and we lack the talent of a Parisse or a Castrogiovanni. Our best player is Polledri, but he's out injured. To give an example about how things are going for us, Matteo Minozzi, who is arguably the second most talented player of the team, decided to not participate in this Six Nations because he didn't feel well to live eight weeks in "the bubble"... and people wonders why we get manhandled every given week...

The whole edgy argument of "replace Italy with Georgia" I think has been thoroughly debunked at this point. Didn't Italy smash them last time they played them? And Georgia played a series of games in Europe in the autumn and got uttely ruined by everyone except Fiji who hadn't played another other games because of covid cases.

Smashed is a big word, we won against Georgia, yes, but that Italy was IMO superior to the current team.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Wish I'd put more than a quid on Wales to win the tournament at 16/1 now

Lots of controversy in this one

 

[Fighter]

Scotland scored 52 points on us. Don't get me wrong Highlanders, but it's a bit too much for me. Now don't tell me about a "young group with a bright future"... MAYBE in 4-5 years we will be back at competing for not getting a whitewash every single year.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Absolutely gutted for Wales after being 10 points ahead but I was really not expecting to beat France anyway. Especially wasn't expecting to win 4 games out of 5 and still be in with a shout at winning the tournament on points difference.

England, just a shambles. Even as a Wales fan I care about England being good because I am also a fan of the Lions and I watch so much of the Premiership so I know the players. On paper they looked very good before the tournament but too many players were not in form. Seems like Eddie Jones has taken the problems of the Lancaster era to the other extreme. Back then they still couldn't decide the starting line-up by the big games of the 2015 World Cup and tried out all sorts of different centre combinations for example, not to mention the failed Sam Burgess project. Now they have the opposite problem where Eddie Jones starts the same players every game and seemingly has no trust in anyone on the depth chart who could be brought in based on form. I remember hearing somewhere since he took over the only 10 other than Ford or Farrell who has got a start was Cipriani in a summer tour. He's given a few 9s a look but decides after a couple of games he doesn't like them and goes back to Youngs. You've got to give a variety of players a substantial amount of international game time which is something Wales did so well under Gatland.

Wales have four professional clubs and they've now got five proven international quality starting 9s (Davies, Webb, Hardy, Williams x2) England have a player pool multiple times the size of the other home nations so this should not be a problem for them, and in reality it isn't because there's some undeniable quality in the Premiership but they just don't get a look because they're not trusted and/or haven't got experience at international level because the team hasn't been built properly. If/when the Lions series goes ahead will be the perfect time to take some younger players with few or no caps and have a decent look at them. ,

 

[Siamese Dream]

Also just for fun I'll have a go at my starting Lions 15 based on this year's tournament. Assuming everyone is fit.

1 - W.Jones
2 - Owens
3 - Furlong
4 - Itoje
5 - Beirne
6 - Navidi
7 - Curry
8 - Faletau
9 - ?
10 - Russell
11 - May
12 - Farrell
13 - J.Davies
14 - LRZ
15 - Hogg

AWJ tour captain, Hogg or Farrell can fill in for the tests if he's not picked.

Can't really decide who should play 9. Think it's really up for grabs and will depend on performance in the warmup matches.

 

[mkev400]

Also just for fun I'll have a go at my starting Lions 15 based on this year's tournament. Assuming everyone is fit.

1 - W.Jones
2 - Owens
3 - Furlong
4 - Itoje
5 - Beirne
6 - Navidi
7 - Curry
8 - Faletau
9 - ?
10 - Russell
11 - May
12 - Farrell
13 - J.Davies
14 - LRZ
15 - Hogg

AWJ tour captain, Hogg or Farrell can fill in for the tests if he's not picked.

Can't really decide who should play 9. Think it's really up for grabs and will depend on performance in the warmup matches.

For lack of a better home nations 9 (and given the man nominating the team), Id say Gareth Davies will get that jersey. Overall, I do think that team is close to being the one ultimately picked I have some tweaks though:

2 - Cowan Dickie (Ken Owens hasnt been the Ken Owens of old these last few years. I think Cowan Dickie had a better tournament overall)
5 - AWJ (likely the captain and since Gatland picks the team likely to be starting. I see Henderson on the Bench currently)
6 - Beirne (Mainly because he is on form and impressed at 6 even more than at Lock this 6N. Hard on Navidi, but Id have him as Utility Back row on the bench)
10, 12, 13 - I think this is the toughest to call and where we differ the most. Im starting to doubt whether Russell will make the Lions. His return to Scotland didnt make them substantially better. I'd say, Sexton (yes my Ireland Bias) could be in with a shout, in which case id have JS at 10, OF at 12 and Henshaw at 13. Davies hasnt been that good (except for the france match) while Ireland doesnt get 3 wins this championship without Henshaw. If Sexton doesnt make the team, then the starting order would probably be OF at 10, Henshaw 12 and one of North or Davies at 13, while I lean towards North. Id take one of Biggar or Ford as the backup 10. Also, Huw Jones is playing rejuvenated, he could make a (admittedly) small case for himself.
11 - I dont know, I thought May was poor by his standards this year. Might be a close one to decide between him and van der Merwe for me personally. May might still edge it, but not as clear cut as he would have been 12 (or even 4) months ago.
Also I like the call with LRZ. Its tough on Liam Williams, since he is such a class player, but there really isnt a starting spot for him on the team...

On a side note: Is there honestly no better LH in the Home Nations than Wyn Jones??? Nothing against him, he is a very good player, and based on this years tounament is certainly deserving of the starting lions jersey, but he is not at the same level as a peak Vunipola, Healy or even Jack McGrath. In Ireland there is ongoing chatter (mainly from fans) about switching Porter to Loose Head because there is literally no quality in the Pipeline (as evidenced by the reliance on Ed Byrne as 3rd LH), but it seems to be a problem thoughout the British and Irish Isles.
Same goes for 9. I love Davies (albeit a bit begrudgingly) but I am always marvelling at the lack of a quality 9 for England. Youd think they could come up with someone better than Be Youngs, but it seems that any young promising 9 just stalls out early in their career... Also, what happened to Rhys Webb? Havent been following the Welsh provinces closely (or barely at all really), but has he been injured this season? Bit surprised I havent seen/heard his name at all this season

 

[Siamese Dream]

For lack of a better home nations 9 (and given the man nominating the team), Id say Gareth Davies will get that jersey. Overall, I do think that team is close to being the one ultimately picked I have some tweaks though:

2 - Cowan Dickie (Ken Owens hasnt been the Ken Owens of old these last few years. I think Cowan Dickie had a better tournament overall)
5 - AWJ (likely the captain and since Gatland picks the team likely to be starting. I see Henderson on the Bench currently)
6 - Beirne (Mainly because he is on form and impressed at 6 even more than at Lock this 6N. Hard on Navidi, but Id have him as Utility Back row on the bench)
10, 12, 13 - I think this is the toughest to call and where we differ the most. Im starting to doubt whether Russell will make the Lions. His return to Scotland didnt make them substantially better. I'd say, Sexton (yes my Ireland Bias) could be in with a shout, in which case id have JS at 10, OF at 12 and Henshaw at 13. Davies hasnt been that good (except for the france match) while Ireland doesnt get 3 wins this championship without Henshaw. If Sexton doesnt make the team, then the starting order would probably be OF at 10, Henshaw 12 and one of North or Davies at 13, while I lean towards North. Id take one of Biggar or Ford as the backup 10. Also, Huw Jones is playing rejuvenated, he could make a (admittedly) small case for himself.
11 - I dont know, I thought May was poor by his standards this year. Might be a close one to decide between him and van der Merwe for me personally. May might still edge it, but not as clear cut as he would have been 12 (or even 4) months ago.
Also I like the call with LRZ. Its tough on Liam Williams, since he is such a class player, but there really isnt a starting spot for him on the team...

On a side note: Is there honestly no better LH in the Home Nations than Wyn Jones??? Nothing against him, he is a very good player, and based on this years tounament is certainly deserving of the starting lions jersey, but he is not at the same level as a peak Vunipola, Healy or even Jack McGrath. In Ireland there is ongoing chatter (mainly from fans) about switching Porter to Loose Head because there is literally no quality in the Pipeline (as evidenced by the reliance on Ed Byrne as 3rd LH), but it seems to be a problem thoughout the British and Irish Isles.
Same goes for 9. I love Davies (albeit a bit begrudgingly) but I am always marvelling at the lack of a quality 9 for England. Youd think they could come up with someone better than Be Youngs, but it seems that any young promising 9 just stalls out early in their career... Also, what happened to Rhys Webb? Havent been following the Welsh provinces closely (or barely at all really), but has he been injured this season? Bit surprised I havent seen/heard his name at all this season

I tried to pick mostly based on form. I thought Owens had a great tournament and while I do like LCD he didn't really get given enough game time for me to give a proper judgement. I thought Navidi has been far too good to leave out as well and they'll need an out and out 6 to defend against the Springboks. I went with Russell because his tactical kicking has been better than any other 10, Ford had a poor tournament in this regard and I think Sexton is past it (sorry) I could see them only taking Russell, Biggar with Farrell being able to cover 10/12. North will be on the plane but I can't see him playing at 13 in the tests, he's only there for Wales because they have so few centers and can easily cover his wing. I don't really rate Van Der Merwe and I did think May was good whenever England did actually get the ball out wide and is one of the best finishers in the game. I'll also mention Keith Earls is in really good form. Lots of good options on the wing. Liam Williams will go and will probably be on the bench for the tests to cover fullback and wing.

I also picked Wyn Jones on form, the guy was unbelievable and put in massive shifts in some of the games. He played 77 minutes against France. Normally I'd have gone with Mako Vunipola but he looked a shell of his former self, still good in the scrum but not as much of a ball carrying threat as he used to be. Rhys Webb did definitely play for Wales in the autumn but I do think he has been injured for the 6 Nations otherwise he would've been called up when Tomos Williams got injured in the first game.

 

[mkev400]

I tried to pick mostly based on form. I thought Owens had a great tournament and while I do like LCD he didn't really get given enough game time for me to give a proper judgement. I thought Navidi has been far too good to leave out as well and they'll need an out and out 6 to defend against the Springboks. I went with Russell because his tactical kicking has been better than any other 10, Ford had a poor tournament in this regard and I think Sexton is past it (sorry) I could see them only taking Russell, Biggar with Farrell being able to cover 10/12. North will be on the plane but I can't see him playing at 13 in the tests, he's only there for Wales because they have so few centers and can easily cover his wing. I don't really rate Van Der Merwe and I did think May was good whenever England did actually get the ball out wide and is one of the best finishers in the game. I'll also mention Keith Earls is in really good form. Lots of good options on the wing. Liam Williams will go and will probably be on the bench for the tests to cover fullback and wing.

I also picked Wyn Jones on form, the guy was unbelievable and put in massive shifts in some of the games. He played 77 minutes against France. Normally I'd have gone with Mako Vunipola but he looked a shell of his former self, still good in the scrum but not as much of a ball carrying threat as he used to be. Rhys Webb did definitely play for Wales in the autumn but I do think he has been injured for the 6 Nations otherwise he would've been called up when Tomos Williams got injured in the first game.

There is a lot to agree with in this post. The argument about Sexton being past his peak are valid, though I don't think that necessarily precludes him from contention. Without him Ireland look bang on average and probably contend with Italy for the wooden spoon. And despite his fragility, I do think he is still a top 3 Fly half in the 6N (when fit). For his and Irelands sake I think he shouldnt be nominated, because the milage on his body and the game he still insists on playing could see him seriously injured against South Africa, something Ireland cant afford. I agree that Ford wasn't great in this tournament, but Finn Russell didnt look better than him either. At that stage Ford would likely be picked because he is a leader, something that Russell demonstratively has not been in the past. I would say that'll be in Gatlands mind when picking the team.
I would however wholeheartedly disagree with the form check on Earls. He looked terribly out of form in the first two games and his autumn form was poor as well and even when he came on against Italy he didnt set the world alight. He seems to play with renewed confidence since getting his contract extension, but I dont think a decent performance against Scotland and a good game against England in over a year and a half warrants a Lions inclusion. Additionally his preferred wing is 14, and its been quite some time that he played 11 at test level, so I don't see any argument for him to play there for the lions. Perhaps there is room for Williams or North to take the 11 spot if May's slump continues.

I agree with the Jones pick for 1. I just felt like pointing out that Looseheads have been particular poor this year. Wyn Jones was by far the best from the home nations, and I'd argue over the whole tournament he was better than Cyril Baille as well. Mako looked especially shocking and Ellis Genge wasn't exactly good either. Cian Healy lost all his qualities in the loose since the Break last March, while Kilcoyne seemingly can't scrummage anymore since his injury in the summer (McGrath injured for the whole 6N). I can't even tell who is Scotlands nominal starter at 1. Is it Sutherland or Kebble?

 

[Siamese Dream]

Looks like the Lions tour will go ahead in South Africa as planned

Lions plan for 2021 tour in South Africa

 

[Islay1989]

Hamish Watson really had an amazing campaign. He should be a strong consideration as a #7 for the Lions tour.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Lions squad announced today

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

 

[I am not exposed]

James Ryan is the most notable admission imo.