All Purpose Trade / Roster Building Thread pt 8- wait we're spending HOW MUCH?

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TheReelChuckFletcher

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Hats off to Fleury for playing well on his off side by the way. A lot of guys can’t do it at all, it’s not easy. Even the best dmen can’t easily switch back and forth. Some guys love it, Pesce was good at it. Just because he did it doesn’t mean anything, hall of famers would tell you they couldn’t do it. It’s very individual.

It certainly helps his long-term value in the league to have this skill if necessary. RHD are a scarce commodity outside of a select few teams (like us), and in order to break into our insane defensive roster, Fleury had to differentiate himself from the others in Charlotte.
 
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ONO94

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Strange the people busting on Fleury for only playing 91 games as a 23 yo and he is tapped out as a prospect--yet supporting TVR who had played less than 20 NHL games at the same age. Sure, he won't ever have the offense of the 7 OA pick--but he moves better than Edmundson and can play either hand better than TVR. I wouldn't mind seeing a trade to get him more playing time and he could get more than TVR in a trade but that is because he is younger, cheaper with more upside. TVR is not a number 4 or really even a number 5--he is a solid number 6 that can fill in for a time at other spots. A Brock McGinn of defenseman.
 

Big Daddy Cane

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Fleury is the 7th best defenseman on the roster, but the 5th most valuable moving forward. Given the circumstances, the team should be able to get 2-3 more seasons out of him at a sub-$2 mil price tag. If he's legit on the right side, that adds even more value. There's limited opportunity for Bean because of the numbers. Fleury on his offside opens up a spot as soon as next season.

They traded Skinner when they didn't have to. They traded Faulk when they didn't have to. This is not an all-in management group at this point. If a team offers up a good return for either Edmundson or TvR, I think they consider it.
 

Helsinki Hurricanes

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Strange the people busting on Fleury for only playing 91 games as a 23 yo and he is tapped out as a prospect--yet supporting TVR who had played less than 20 NHL games at the same age. Sure, he won't ever have the offense of the 7 OA pick--but he moves better than Edmundson and can play either hand better than TVR. I wouldn't mind seeing a trade to get him more playing time and he could get more than TVR in a trade but that is because he is younger, cheaper with more upside. TVR is not a number 4 or really even a number 5--he is a solid number 6 that can fill in for a time at other spots. A Brock McGinn of defenseman.

Looking around the league (not just Winnipeg) most teams have totally crap 3rd pairings. And most teams don't have four top 4 worthy defenseman. Canes have one of the best defenses in the league, both in quality and depth. For instance, it is true TVR is #5/6 in Carolina but in Winnipeg he would currently be #1, #2 when Morrisey comes back and #3 if Buff comes back. Most teams just have to stick a guy like TVR to their top 4 due to lack of proper top 4 defensemen.

Anyways, I took a quick look around Dailyfaceoff for the lines of some NHL teams (only approximately half because I'm lazy):

ANA: Larsson-Del Zotto
ARI: Chychryn-Oesterle
BOS: Grzelcyk-Clifton
BUF: Scandella-Jokiharju
CAL: Kylington-Andersson
CHI: Koekkoek-Murphy
COL: Graves-Timmins
CBS: Gavrikov-Nutivaara
DAL: Oleksiak-Fedun
DET: Cholowski-Bowey
EDM: Russel-Benning
FLO: Yandle-Pysyk
LAK: Hutton-Walker
MIN: Soucy-Hunt
MON: Kulak-Fleuru
NAS: Irwin-Weber
NJD: Butcher-Carrick
NYI: Leddy-Dobson

There are couple promising youngsters who are eased into NHL (Dobson, Jokiharju etc.) Then there are some pairings which are more like 2nd pairings but for some reason listed as 3rd (Yandle-Pysyk, Leddy-Dobson). But if you ignore these outliers, most of the 3rd pairing players in NHL are AHL/NHL tweeners, waiver pickups etc.

But yeah, long response but my point is that TVR is at least a #5. We, Canes fans are just too spoiled seeing Dougie, Slavin, Pesce, even Faulk in the lineup.
 

Lempo

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CapFriendly's cap space calculation includes van Riemsdyk. There's no cap pressure to make a move.

The LTIR is tricky though... you don't get benefit for the salary of the injured player on LTIR, but can go above the cap with the salaries of the player(s) who are brought to replace the injured player. If I understand it correctly you can't bank cap space by LTIR.
 
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Big Daddy Cane

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The LTIR is tricky though... you don't get benefit for the salary of the injured player on LTIR, but can go above the cap with the salaries of the player(s) who are brought to replace the injured player. If I understand it correctly you can't bank cap space by LTIR.

Right, but you can bank the normal cap space. Including van Riemsdyk, the team has ~$1.8 mil for the full season. That will grow throughout the year culminating in > $8 mil in deadline space. That's theoretical of course as injuries will happen, driving down the actual number.
 
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TheReelChuckFletcher

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Fleury is the 7th best defenseman on the roster, but the 5th most valuable moving forward. Given the circumstances, the team should be able to get 2-3 more seasons out of him at a sub-$2 mil price tag. If he's legit on the right side, that adds even more value. There's limited opportunity for Bean because of the numbers. Fleury on his offside opens up a spot as soon as next season.

They traded Skinner when they didn't have to. They traded Faulk when they didn't have to. This is not an all-in management group at this point. If a team offers up a good return for either Edmundson or TvR, I think they consider it.

It's the consequence of having an organization that prioritizes talent over fit. Most teams in our situation on defense wouldn't even think for a second about trying to fit a Jake Gardiner when they had Slavin/Dougie/Pesce/Faulk/TVR. The Canes are a non-traditional organization in the mold of Sam Hinkie's Sixers from a few seasons ago (before the Don Cherry's at the head of the NBA tragically purged him out), in which they don't worry at all about the position that a player plays, as long as they have undervalued talent and can improve the team. As a result, we have the best defense in hockey and an extra late-1st round caliber prospect to add to our loaded farm.
 

cptjeff

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From an Athletic article today:


Keeping an eye on Jesse Puljujarvi: Which teams could emerge as potential trade partners?
Keeping an eye on Jesse Puljujarvi: Which teams could emerge...



The Hurricanes also remain linked to Puljujarvi. There may be an urge from Carolina in terms of getting Puljujarvi on a line with brilliant centre Sebastian Aho, as the two men have had substantial international success together. Carolina uses analytics to identify undervalued assets, and it’s likely that the price on Puljujarvi is reduced (compared with actual value). One of the names mentioned as a possible return was giant winger Julien Gauthier. He didn’t make the Hurricanes, so he returns for a third season in the AHL with the Charlotte Checkers. He scored a goal on three shots in his first AHL game this season and followed it with another goal and five shots in the game Sunday. He brings much of what Edmonton might be looking for and is a story worth following.

Yeah, I'm sure Edmonton is interested in Goat, but after that preseason, they would need to add a lot to Pulju to get him.
 

geehaad

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Most teams in our situation on defense wouldn't even think for a second about trying to fit a Jake Gardiner when they had Slavin/Dougie/Pesce/Faulk/TVR.
My view is that TvR is an insurance policy for the Top-4, as opposed to a recognized member of it. You and/or GMBC may see that differently, and that's fine.

Regardless of that, the *problem* was that they had 4 RHD for their top-6...one of which had gotten a $1.2M raise from last season, would become a UFA in less than a year, and with whom extension talks went sideways. So, while it seems like picking up Gardiner was a akin to a drunken "sure...why not?", it's my belief that it was a signing that GMBC was keen to make precisely for organizational fit.

I think you're correct in your assessment of GMBC's prioritization on talent in drafting/prospects, but I'm not convinced that organizational fit is less of a priority when it comes to the actual NHL roster.
 

TheReelChuckFletcher

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My view is that TvR is an insurance policy for the Top-4, as opposed to a recognized member of it. You and/or GMBC may see that differently, and that's fine.

Regardless of that, the *problem* was that they had 4 RHD for their top-6...one of which had gotten a $1.2M raise from last season, would become a UFA in less than a year, and with whom extension talks went sideways. So, while it seems like picking up Gardiner was a akin to a drunken "sure...why not?", it's my belief that it was a signing that GMBC was keen to make precisely for organizational fit.

I think you're correct in your assessment of GMBC's prioritization on talent in drafting/prospects, but I'm not convinced that organizational fit is less of a priority when it comes to the actual NHL roster.

The main reason that I suspect that Gardiner (and Dzingel, for that matter) was a talent over fit signing was that it occurred in post-Day 1 UFA. Teams that have pressing needs at certain positions usually try to get their man on the first day of free agency. The Canes, OTOH, sat back and waited for the prices to die down before making their moves, which to me strongly shows what their organizational priorities are.
 

cptjeff

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The main reason that I suspect that Gardiner (and Dzingel, for that matter) was a talent over fit signing was that it occurred in post-Day 1 UFA. Teams that have pressing needs at certain positions usually try to get their man on the first day of free agency. The Canes, OTOH, sat back and waited for the prices to die down before making their moves, which to me strongly shows what their organizational priorities are.

I mean, they've explicitly said that they're always trying to find value first and foremost, but both players are really good fits. With Dzingel, for instance, the Canes had apparently reached out to him much earlier in free agency but he was asking for more money at that point and didn't fit in our budget. When his price dropped, we snapped him up. Gardiner is one of the best PP QBs around, and that was our team's primary weakness last year- it's a good budget add for sure, and we didn't need him per se- we could have kept Faulk at least until the deadline- but it was a perfect fit to address a weakness, and when the price fit, we signed him.
 

geehaad

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The Canes, OTOH, sat back and waited for the prices to die down before making their moves, which to me strongly shows what their organizational priorities are.
Well, that would the #1 priority of "don't overspend" and "don't give up NTCs/NMCs", right? :laugh:

You're probably right to a certain extent, in that they probably said to themselves, "well, starting the season off with 3 RHDs in the top-4 isn't the worst thing in the world". However, the prescription for organizational fit was a puck-moving LHD to pair with Pesce in *replacement* of Faulk, rather than in addition to. Their patience in making the move makes it seem like a drunken "sure, why not?" decision, but it's entirely possible GMBC was playing a game of chicken...with the contingency that they were comfortable starting the season with Faulk in the top-4.
 
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RodTheBawd

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Strange the people busting on Fleury for only playing 91 games as a 23 yo and he is tapped out as a prospect--yet supporting TVR who had played less than 20 NHL games at the same age. Sure, he won't ever have the offense of the 7 OA pick--but he moves better than Edmundson and can play either hand better than TVR. I wouldn't mind seeing a trade to get him more playing time and he could get more than TVR in a trade but that is because he is younger, cheaper with more upside. TVR is not a number 4 or really even a number 5--he is a solid number 6 that can fill in for a time at other spots. A Brock McGinn of defenseman.

Are you saying that Fleury can play his opposite side better than TVR can play his opposite side, or that Fleury is better than TVR regardless of side?
 

Bunch of Jurcos

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Two important things have happened this season. Depending on the tasks of Edmundson and TVR, our defense could be set for several seasons. That gives the Borg more time to keep improving our offense or goaltending. If Reimer continues playing like he has in these two games all year then goaltending might not be an issue either. That's a lot of ifs but it's an exciting possibility.

Secondly with Faulk's departure, if you check the trade board, no one is trying to trade junk for one of our players. I can imagine that's happening with Waddell also. If Carolina is calling teams have to think very carefully before trading with us. Competent management is amazing.
 

Lempo

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Secondly with Faulk's departure, if you check the trade board, no one is trying to trade junk for one of our players. I can imagine that's happening with Waddell also. If Carolina is calling teams have to think very carefully before trading with us. Competent management is amazing.

That's not necessarily the best of things. They are a colleagial bunch, the GMs. You win some trades, you lose some trades, there's an element of banking some future considerations when you every now and then accept a "bad" one. Being a smooth trading partner when someone needs to be helped out is a currency of its own.

If you insist on winning every trade, there won't be dance partners lining up all that eagerly. And you will need them when you need to make a move.
 

ONO94

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Are you saying that Fleury can play his opposite side better than TVR can play his opposite side, or that Fleury is better than TVR regardless of side?

Fleury is better at playing his off hand side better than TVR, who was terrible the few games they tried it in last year. As for the play overall--I'm not completely positive there is enough of a difference that now wouldn't be a good time to shop TVR. The Canes have much better offense from the blueline than in previous years, so that part of TVR's game isn't as valuable and I think with more playing time, Fleury will become the better defender. Looking forward, Fleury even looks more valuable--he's younger, faster, no more expensive and able to be signed as an RFA. TVR and Edmundson are most likely gone at the end of the year and Bean and Priskie are coming but neither are really in the defensive vein that Fleury can fill.
 
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Bunch of Jurcos

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That's not necessarily the best of things. They are a colleagial bunch, the GMs. You win some trades, you lose some trades, there's an element of banking some future considerations when you every now and then accept a "bad" one. Being a smooth trading partner when someone needs to be helped out is a currency of its own.

If you insist on winning every trade, there won't be dance partners lining up all that eagerly. And you will need them when you need to make a move.

You have a great point Lempo. What I meant was that we don't have a glaring hole on the roster that has to be filled for other teams to call and take advantage of our weakness. Yes we can always upgrade but at the moment we are okay.

To your point I don't think we asked too much in our trades with Chicago or St. Louis. That could help in the future.
 
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