Pre-Game Talk: All Purpose Off Day Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,691
8,111
Blueger seems to be the shiny new toy that gets overrated to all hell on HF :laugh:

Like it has been said already, Blueger is like 8th on the depth chart for the Penguins at center. Know why he hasn't gotten a chance in the NHL yet? Because he's not better than the guys in front of him. Blueger will get his chance next year, with all of Brassard, Cullen, Sheahan and Grant pending UFAs. But this year, there just isn't a spot for him. Calling up Wilson to replace ZAR makes a lot more sense than calling up Blueger to replace ZAR.

Blueger wouldn't even be playing even if he'd be called up, so I don't know why so many are screaming about him deserving a call-up here. Even if you assume he's better than Dea and Wilson, which is a pretty faulty assumption to begin with, he's still the 14th best forward in the organization at best. He's not a better player than Grant, so he wouldn't even be getting into the lineup with ZAR out.

It's faulty to assume TB is better than Wilson? The guy that has 2 career points in 48 NHL games? How is it faulty to suggest that TB is better than Wilson but it's not faulty to state as a matter of fact that TB isn't better than Grant? Where is your proof? Nobody really knows until we see him in the NHL.

The idea here is that the Pens should be trying out players that might actually be difference makers come the playoffs. I get the idea of giving players more grooming time, but TB has done all he can in the AHL. It's time to give him a shot. If playing him on the wing is such an issue, then move him to center and play Cullen and Sheahan at wing.
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
80,407
78,003
Redmond, WA
It's faulty to assume TB is better than Wilson? The guy that has 2 career points in 48 NHL games? How is it faulty to suggest that TB is better than Wilson but it's not faulty to state as a matter of fact that TB isn't better than Grant? Where is your proof? Nobody really knows until we see him in the NHL.

The idea here is that the Pens should be trying out players that might actually be difference makers come the playoffs. I get the idea of giving players more grooming time, but TB has done all he can in the AHL. It's time to give him a shot. If playing him on the wing is such an issue, then move him to center and play Cullen and Sheahan at wing.

So Blueger, with his 0 points in 0 career NHL games, is better than Wilson, who has 4 points in 48 NHL games? What makes Blueger better than Wilson? To assume that he is better is completely faulty because it's based on virtually nothing.

What makes Blueger a potential difference maker for the playoffs? He's not even going to play in the playoffs unless we get like 4 center injuries. They're not going to move actual centers to the wing or scratch better players just because their #8 center on the depth chart is having a good year in the AHL. This is just this board fawning over another mediocre young guy, and pretending that any team would go out of their way to get those kind of guys in the lineup. It's the same thing as we're seeing right now with DiPauli, and what we have seen in the past with guys like Sundqvist and Archibald.
 

Randy Butternubs

Registered User
Mar 15, 2008
29,777
21,310
Morningside
So Blueger, with his 0 points in 0 career NHL games, is better than Wilson, who has 4 points in 48 NHL games? What makes Blueger better than Wilson? To assume that he is better is completely faulty because it's based on virtually nothing.

What makes Blueger a potential difference maker for the playoffs? He's not even going to play in the playoffs unless we get like 4 center injuries. They're not going to move actual centers to the wing or scratch better players just because their #8 center on the depth chart is having a good year in the AHL. This is just this board fawning over another mediocre young guy, and pretending that any team would go out of their way to get those kind of guys in the lineup.

It's simple math. 4 points in 48 games is 7 points in a full season. 0 points in 0 games is undefined. Let's find out what it could be.

I get your point but I really enjoy seeing new, young players. And look at how that worked out in 2016.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shady Machine

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,691
8,111
So Blueger, with his 0 points in 0 career NHL games, is better than Wilson, who has 4 points in 48 NHL games? What makes Blueger better than Wilson? To assume that he is better is completely faulty because it's based on virtually nothing.

What makes Blueger a potential difference maker for the playoffs? He's not even going to play in the playoffs unless we get like 4 center injuries. They're not going to move actual centers to the wing or scratch better players just because their #8 center on the depth chart is having a good year in the AHL. This is just this board fawning over another mediocre young guy, and pretending that any team would go out of their way to get those kind of guys in the lineup. It's the same thing as we're seeing right now with DiPauli, and what we have seen in the past with guys like Sundqvist and Archibald.

'Craig Adams and Tanner Glass are better than "insert young player" because so and so has 0 points in 0 games.'

TB is an unknown. I'm not saying he's better than anybody, but we know what Wilson brings. We don't know what TB will bring, but he has a lot of attributes that can be useful. How do we know if they are or aren't useful to the Pens if he never gets a shot?

You are saying matter of fact that TB isn't better than Grant. How do you know that?

The reality is the Pens drafted TB as a project and have slowly groomed him to be an NHL player. From all accounts, he's been very good in the AHL and has a lot of attributes that can be beneficial to this club. They have moved plenty of centers to the wing this year, so I don't get why they couldn't try TB at wing OR move Cullen to wing to give TB a shot.

This board does obsess over younger players, to a degree, but this team has also benefited from cheap young depth the last few years, many of which could have been considered a "mediocre young guy" until they got their chance.

By the way, you have talked about moving Sheahan for cap space and others have discussed moving Brass this year. Actually seeing what TB has in the NHL would go a long way to making that a realistic option.
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
80,407
78,003
Redmond, WA
It's simple math. 4 points in 48 games is 7 points in a full season. 0 points in 0 games is undefined. Let's find out what it could be.

I get your point but I really enjoy seeing new, young players. And look at how that worked out in 2016.

But that's not a justification that teams ever go with, and it's not a justification to call up Blueger and not play other players in their position of strength. Blueger is the 8th center on the depth chart, a winger injury isn't going to move him up higher in the depth chart. You need 3 center injuries before Blueger is even considered for a roster spot, let alone a starting spot.

The Penguins do have new, young players on their team, all of ZAR, Simon, Riikola and Pettersson fit this. They've basically reached their capacity for young players because the rest of the team is filled with good players. Guys like Prow, Blueger, DiPauli and Johnson haven't gotten called up because they don't have a spot for those guys.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tom Hanks

Randy Butternubs

Registered User
Mar 15, 2008
29,777
21,310
Morningside
But that's not a justification that teams ever go with, and it's not a justification to call up Blueger and not play other players in their position of strength. Blueger is the 8th center on the depth chart, a winger injury isn't going to move him up higher in the depth chart. You need 3 center injuries before Blueger is even considered for a roster spot, let alone a starting spot.

The Penguins do have new, young players on their team, all of ZAR, Simon, Riikola and Pettersson fit this. They've basically reached their capacity for young players because the rest of the team is filled with good players. Guys like Prow, Blueger, DiPauli and Johnson haven't gotten called up because they don't have a spot for those guys.

And as a fan, I'd like that to change.

On the flip side, if there's a new technology/product in my industry, I'm not just going to throw it in my largest project. I'm going to vet it first -- probably try it on smaller projects. Even ask other engineers their thoughts on it. However, these (my job vs. the Penguins) are different industries and I think an entertainment industry can take that risk of an unknown.
 

EightyOne

My posts are jokes. And hockey is just a game.
Nov 23, 2016
12,697
12,034
Blueger is 10000000000x better than Garrett Wilson.

I think I could get 2 assists in half a season if I didn't break every bone in the first body check i took. Like. I'd have to accidentally touch a puck before someone scored, a few times, right?

/massive joking sarcasm here
 

Tom Hanks

Spelling mistakes brought to you by my iPhone.
Nov 10, 2017
30,408
32,434
It's simple math. 4 points in 48 games is 7 points in a full season. 0 points in 0 games is undefined. Let's find out what it could be.

I get your point but I really enjoy seeing new, young players. And look at how that worked out in 2016.

JR has been pretty good at knowing who to bring up and haven’t been burnt by not giving some guys a shot or letting them go.

Our 4th line is used as a shutdown line so that might not be the best spot for TB. He’s also a centre so it’s not a good idea to bring someone up to the NHL for the first time and play them out of position. TB wouldn’t be played at centre over Cullen, Sheahan or Grant and they are all on the roster right now. Cullen is also in great form and the 4th line has been really good.
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,691
8,111
JR has been pretty good at knowing who to bring up and haven’t been burnt by not giving some guys a shot or letting them go.

Our 4th line is used as a shutdown line so that might not be the best spot for TB. He’s also a centre so it’s not a good idea to bring someone up to the NHL for the first time and play them out of position. TB wouldn’t be played at centre over Cullen, Sheahan or Grant and they are all on the roster right now. Cullen is also in great form and the 4th line has been really good.

I'll let Jiggy and others that have seen TB more often speak into this, but he's a good 2 way center. This isn't Sprong we are talking about. He already has 2 way attributes that a coach can trust.

I have no idea why TB can't play over Grant. Just because people say he won't be, doesn't mean it's a requirement.
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
80,407
78,003
Redmond, WA
TB is an unknown. I'm not saying he's better than anybody, but we know what Wilson brings. We don't know what TB will bring, but he has a lot of attributes that can be useful. How do we know if they are or aren't if he never gets a shot?

Being an unknown doesn't mean he'd be a better option. Saying "we won't know how good he is without giving him a shot" isn't a justification for giving him a shot. Ignorance isn't a justification for anything. Again, Blueger is the 8th center on the depth chart. Even if you consider Grant a winger and Dea below Blueger on the depth chart, he's still only 6th.

You are saying matter of fact that TB isn't better than Grant. How do you know that?

Uh, because Grant has actually been productive in the NHL at some point in his career. Again, Blueger not making it to the NHL yet isn't an argument against the claim that Grant is better than him. If you're insistent on comparing them apples to apples, you can compare Grant's AHL production over the last few years to Blueger's. Spoiler alert, Grant's numbers are a good bit better. Grant is just comfortably a better player.

The reality is the Pens drafted TB as a project and have slowly groomed him to be an NHL player. From all accounts, he's been very good in the AHL and has a lot of attributes that can be beneficial to this club. They have moved plenty of centers to the wing this year, so I don't get why they couldn't try TB at wing OR move Cullen to wing to give TB a shot.

Because Cullen is the 4C on this team when they get into the playoffs, and Blueger won't be on this team if everyone is healthy. Here's the big thing it comes down to, unless Blueger is like stupidly good in the NHL, he's not playing on the team in the playoffs. He's the 8th center on the depth chart.
 

PensandCaps

Beddy Tlueger
May 22, 2015
27,612
17,954
I think I could get 2 assists in half a season if I didn't break every bone in the first body check i took. Like. I'd have to accidentally touch a puck before someone scored, a few times, right?

/massive joking sarcasm here

I'm pretty confident I could dangle around Garrett Wilson.


And I don't know to skate.
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
80,407
78,003
Redmond, WA
And as a fan, I'd like that to change.

On the flip side, if there's a new technology/product in my industry, I'm not just going to throw it in my largest project. I'm going to vet it first -- probably try it on smaller projects. Even ask other engineers their thoughts on it. However, these (my job vs. the Penguins) are different industries and I think an entertainment industry can take that risk of an unknown.

But using that analogy, why would you pursue that technology on smaller projects when you have a better one now that you're going to use, and you won't use that new technology until you absolutely have to? You wouldn't re-purpose your old software to make way for the new software, you'd just use your old software and then switch over when you have to. I can get the analogy using some softwares that I currently work with, but the new ones tend to be better than the old ones right now. In this case, Blueger isn't better than Cullen.

This would obviously be a lot different if the Penguins had a Rowney type of guy as their 4C, but they have 3 really strong 4Cs on their roster right now.
 

Jaded-Fan

Registered User
Mar 18, 2004
52,446
14,304
Pittsburgh
Haha. Because I'm not the one painting the picture.

So, relatively speaking, the Pens offense is doing better than expected based on goals per shot, but their defense is doing worse than expected based on goals allowed per shot?

You don't need analytics to see that, it is obvious watching the games.

My main wondering is what happens when Schultz returns. Assuming that he is close to a full recovery, a not sure thing assumption, he is by far the best addition this team could hope for. Do they need more on defense or will that be enough?
 

Peat

Registered User
Jun 14, 2016
29,292
25,206
OR move Cullen to wing to give TB a shot.

Cullen's been pretty poo on the wing this season imo and I don't think its a coincidence that they flipped him and Sheahan so Cullen is C - and that Cullen is playing much better now. I thought that would be a possibility at the start of the season but I'm not so hot on it now.

But that said... yes.

To put it another way -

The bar to being better or equal to Wilson is quite low. We non-WBS watchers have very little proof either way as to who's better but the odds on it being Blueger and that they're making a mistake are non-negligible.

And when he's got a potential future here that Wilson shouldn't, he should be getting the nod if he is better or equal.

Is it a big deal? In an isolated occurrence, no. But its not nothing either and questioning it isn't some huge overrating of Blueger.
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,691
8,111
Being an unknown doesn't mean he'd be a better option. Saying "we won't know how good he is without giving him a shot" isn't a justification for giving him a shot. Ignorance isn't a justification for anything. Again, Blueger is the 8th center on the depth chart. Even if you consider Grant a winger and Dea below Blueger on the depth chart, he's still only 6th.

For the record I never said he was better. I objected with your assertion that suggesting it was faulty. The reality is we don't know. He could be better, he could be worse, but we won't know until we try and he's done everything he can in the AHL to earn a shot. Personally, for the betterment of the org and basing decisions on who has earned it, I think TB has earned a few games. Plus, it would be nice to know what we have in the guy in case Cullen is injured or needs a rest, and one of Sheahan or Brass is traded. In my opinion, TB brings more of the skillset we need in a 4th line center over Grant and both he/Sheahan can play wing.


Uh, because Grant has actually been productive in the NHL at some point in his career. Again, Blueger not making it to the NHL yet isn't an argument against the claim that Grant is better than him. If you're insistent on comparing them apples to apples, you can compare Grant's AHL production over the last few years to Blueger's. Spoiler alert, Grant's numbers are a good bit better.

He's been productive in the NHL at some point in his career because he was given games in the NHL to prove it and then he did it. One cannot be productive in the NHL without a chance to be productive in the NHL. Again though, I've never said TB was better than Grant. Just suggesting it's not absurd to watch both players and make the assessment that TB could have a bigger impact in the lineup over Grant.


Because Cullen is the 4C on this team when they get into the playoffs, and Blueger won't be on this team if everyone is healthy. Here's the big thing it comes down to, unless Blueger is like stupidly good in the NHL, he's not playing on the team in the playoffs. He's the 8th center on the depth chart.

Probably true. Even if one believes TB is 8th on the depth chart and has no chance of helping this team down the stretch, it would still be nice to see what he has in the NHL 1.As a learning and development opportunity and 2.To see if they can realistically go into next season with him penciled in at 4C.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SHOOTANDSCORE

Tom Hanks

Spelling mistakes brought to you by my iPhone.
Nov 10, 2017
30,408
32,434
I'll let Jiggy and others that have seen TB more often speak into this, but he's a good 2 way center. This isn't Sprong we are talking about. He already has 2 way attributes that a coach can trust.

I have no idea why TB can't play over Grant. Just because people say he won't be, doesn't mean it's a requirement.

Well Cullen is the centre and he’s been great. Why bring up TB to sit or play out of position in a much tougher league when we don’t need too?

Grant has been fine though. We don’t need TB to play over him. Decent production for time played. A guy that can come in and out of the line up easy enough. Is decent at both wing and centre. Good PK’er, great at face offs, brings physicality and rarely scored in.
 

EightyOne

My posts are jokes. And hockey is just a game.
Nov 23, 2016
12,697
12,034
You don't need analytics to see that, it is obvious watching the games.

My main wondering is what happens when Schultz returns. Assuming that he is close to a full recovery, a not sure thing assumption, he is by far the best addition this team could hope for. Do they need more on defense or will that be enough?

I think he will improve BOTH ends of those the Pens stats.

I doubt they need more than him.
 

Randy Butternubs

Registered User
Mar 15, 2008
29,777
21,310
Morningside
But using that analogy, why would you pursue that technology on smaller projects when you have a better one now that you're going to use, and you won't use that new technology until you absolutely have to? I can get the analogy using some softwares that I currently work with, but the new ones tend to be better than the old ones right now. In this case, Blueger isn't better than Cullen.

This would obviously be a lot different if the Penguins had a Rowney type of guy as their 4C, but they have 3 really strong 4Cs on their roster right now.

I would definitely test out the new product (Blueger) on a smaller project (one game in the regular season). That proven, older product (Grant) would definitely be used on my larger project (NHL playoffs).

Cullen-Blueger-Sheahan is what I want to see for at least a game. That way it shows how TB handles the NHL. Which I think is important to do THIS season as I'd like to have him as the 4C next season.

Okay, I'm done with these analogies. :laugh:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shady Machine

JimmyTwoTimes

Registered User
Apr 13, 2010
19,958
5,281
Being an unknown doesn't mean he'd be a better option. Saying "we won't know how good he is without giving him a shot" isn't a justification for giving him a shot. Ignorance isn't a justification for anything. Again, Blueger is the 8th center on the depth chart. Even if you consider Grant a winger and Dea below Blueger on the depth chart, he's still only 6th.



Uh, because Grant has actually been productive in the NHL at some point in his career. Again, Blueger not making it to the NHL yet isn't an argument against the claim that Grant is better than him. If you're insistent on comparing them apples to apples, you can compare Grant's AHL production over the last few years to Blueger's. Spoiler alert, Grant's numbers are a good bit better. Grant is just comfortably a better player.



Because Cullen is the 4C on this team when they get into the playoffs, and Blueger won't be on this team if everyone is healthy. Here's the big thing it comes down to, unless Blueger is like stupidly good in the NHL, he's not playing on the team in the playoffs. He's the 8th center on the depth chart.

Who says we are fully healthy come playoff time? That was our problem last year and had nobody to pick up the scoring to help the first line.

Thats why you give younger players a chance in the reg season to see what you have in them. Thats what happened with Rust and Sheary and it paid off.

This isn't really about Blueger as it is becoming a trend that the Pens are going away from what worked in those cup runs.

So what happens when Angello is ready. Bellerive and Hallander get passed up for years over guys like Grant, Kuhn, Wilson, etc?
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
80,407
78,003
Redmond, WA
For the record I never said he was better. I objected with your assertion that suggesting it was faulty. The reality is we don't know. He could be better, he could be worse, but we won't know until we try and he's done everything he can in the AHL to earn a shot. Personally, for the betterment of the org and basing decisions on who has earned it, I think TB has earned a few games. Plus, it would be nice to know what we have in the guy in case Cullen is injured or needs a rest, and one of Sheahan or Brass is traded. In my opinion, TB brings more of the skillset we need in a 4th line center over Grant and both he/Sheahan can play wing.

To suggest that Blueger is better than Wilson right now is faulty, though. It's faulty for the same reasons that you think we can't say that Wilson is better than Blueger, we don't know. My original claim wasn't that Wilson was definitively better than Blueger, it was that it's faulty to assume that Blueger is better.

He's been productive in the NHL at some point in his career because he was given games in the NHL to prove it and then he did it. One cannot be productive in the NHL without a chance to be productive in the NHL. Again though, I've never said TB was better than Grant. Just suggesting it's not absurd to watch both players and make the assessment that TB could have a bigger impact in the lineup over Grant.

But Grant is actually a good player though, he's a damn solid 4th liner. I could see the argument for Blueger being better than Glass or Adams, but you're talking about a guy who has proven he can be a NHL contributor. What Grant is right now may be better than Blueger's upside, that's totally within the realm of possibility. Grant is a really solid 4th liner that can play in your top-9 in a pinch.

For me, it really comes down to me not wanting to play Blueger over Sheahan, Cullen or Grant as the 4C. "Seeing what we have in him" isn't a big enough justification to me to call him up when your 4C is healthy. Blueger would be my 4th option for the 4C spot, so I just don't see a point of calling him up. The chances of him playing in the NHL this year are very slim just because of who is in front of him. We'll see what he can do next year, as he's either the 4C/extra forward for the Penguins or a 4C/extra forward somewhere else.
 
Last edited:

madinsomniac

Registered User
Jul 3, 2012
12,830
3,003
Pittsburgh, Pa
Yeah i love the idea of TB getting a shot but the center backlog kind of killed any chance of that.... the pens are really bad at getting guys developed that aren’t ready right out of the box or get external development from college or some other org... mostly cause they bury them behind known nhl grunts when they get close to ready... the only time guys get real shots are by front office mandate or because the nhl coach coached them in the ahl lol
 

Mr Jiggyfly

Registered User
Jan 29, 2004
34,243
19,328
So Blueger, with his 0 points in 0 career NHL games, is better than Wilson, who has 4 points in 48 NHL games? What makes Blueger better than Wilson? To assume that he is better is completely faulty because it's based on virtually nothing.

What makes Blueger a potential difference maker for the playoffs? He's not even going to play in the playoffs unless we get like 4 center injuries. They're not going to move actual centers to the wing or scratch better players just because their #8 center on the depth chart is having a good year in the AHL. This is just this board fawning over another mediocre young guy, and pretending that any team would go out of their way to get those kind of guys in the lineup. It's the same thing as we're seeing right now with DiPauli, and what we have seen in the past with guys like Sundqvist and Archibald.

Talent.
 

Tom Hanks

Spelling mistakes brought to you by my iPhone.
Nov 10, 2017
30,408
32,434
Who says we are fully healthy come playoff time? That was our problem last year and had nobody to pick up the scoring to help the first line.

Thats why you give younger players a chance in the reg season to see what you have in them. Thats what happened with Rust and Sheary and it paid off.

This isn't really about Blueger as it is becoming a trend that the Pens are going away from what worked in those cup runs.

So what happens when Angello is ready. Bellerive and Hallander get passed up for years over guys like Grant, Kuhn, Wilson, etc?

You know Simon, ZAR and De Smith are all up from the AHL and doing well. Riikola never had to go there and Pettersson is another young guy so I don’t see us as having moved away from it because of one call up.
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,691
8,111
Well Cullen is the centre and he’s been great. Why bring up TB to sit or play out of position in a much tougher league when we don’t need too?

Grant has been fine though. We don’t need TB to play over him. Decent production for time played. A guy that can come in and out of the line up easy enough. Is decent at both wing and centre. Good PK’er, great at face offs, brings physicality and rarely scored in.

I really don't think this is a huge injustice or anything. I would just like to see TB get some games this year for a few reasons:

1.The guy has earned it.
2.He's one of the only center prospects they actually are keeping at center and therefore has a good shot at filling an important role in the NHL.
3. We will have a lot of turnover at center this offseason and I'd like to see TB get some games in the NHL to see how he does before next season
4.For his continued development, you need to play in the dance to know what it's like and what you need to work on
 
  • Like
Reactions: SHOOTANDSCORE
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->