OT: All-Purpose Expos Return Topic (Part II)

[Chili]

Same as the Expos for a long time,MLB needs to get a cap and revenue sharing for the small markets to contend. That was the downfall of the Expos. MLB has many teams that don't get fan support when they are not contending.

I've always believed the Expos will be back at some point, when that happens I just hope there is some type of cap and...they shorten the time of games. The NHL found a way, baseball could too if they wanted to I believe.

 

[angusyoung]

I've always believed the Expos will be back at some point, when that happens I just hope there is some type of cap and...they shorten the time of games. The NHL found a way, baseball could too if they wanted to I believe.

It was pathetic that Montreal lost the club. MLB should have monitored what was happening and adjusted things to make it more viable,it wasn't just overnight! I see the games are much longer now,slower for sure. Don't recall the length of games when I used to attend the Expos back then and I used to go to a good 50 or more per season.

I believe the NHL is actually lengthening games as opposed to the inference suggested,but not really sure,will only increase now that more reviews will be happening.

 

[Chili]

It was pathetic that Montreal lost the club. MLB should have monitored what was happening and adjusted things to make it more viable,it wasn't just overnight! I see the games are much longer now,slower for sure. Don't recall the length of games when I used to attend the Expos back then and I used to go to a good 50 or more per season.

I believe the NHL is actually lengthening games as opposed to the inference suggested,but not really sure,will only increase now that more reviews will be happening.

If you ever watch an NHL game from the ~1970's, 1980's etc when the puck was frozen along the boards, it was an almost automatic whistle. Now they make them play it out. Same with offsides, now they can 'tag up'. They probably will add more video review, we'll see how that goes.

MLB wanted a new stadium in Montreal that would generate more revenue when that didn't happen the Expos were doomed. MLB games now are average of over three hours. To be honest, I don't recall the length at the end either, just that they seemed much longer then when I started following the game.

 

[angusyoung]

If you ever watch an NHL game from the ~1970's, 1980's etc when the puck was frozen along the boards, it was an almost automatic whistle. Now they make them play it out. Same with offsides, now they can 'tag up'. They probably will add more video review, we'll see how that goes.

MLB wanted a new stadium in Montreal that would generate more revenue when that didn't happen the Expos were doomed. MLB games now are average of over three hours. To be honest, I don't recall the length at the end either, just that they seemed much longer then when I started following the game.

I certainly do recall games from back then,most games ended up under 2 1/2 hours. It's judgement call blowing the whistle on grinding on the boards,very tiring too!.lol.

 

[1909]

Highly doubtful anytime before current lease expires (2027?). Current TB owners have valuable RE development rights attached to the lease which I doubt they would want to forgo unless someone would really overpay.

There will be threats of a move to push for a new ballpark actually in Tampa but I expect the team to remain in the area.

Do you think a new ball park in the TB area will bring more fans to their games ?

 

[Habaneros]

Do you think a new ball park in the TB area will bring more fans to their games ?

didnt the Flordia Marlins get a brand new park.... how's the attendance there?lol avg about 9800 fan a game...had attendance as low as 6000 recently...


They got the worst attendance in MLB

That was a brand new park

 

[1909]

didnt the Flordia Marlins get a brand new park.... how's the attendance there?lol avg about 9800 fan a game...had attendance as low as 6000 recently....That was a brand new park

The Loria family did the same trick to Marlins fans than they did with Expos' ones: trade every single good young star players they had and kill the interest.

 

[Runner77]

The Loria family did the same trick to Marlins fans than they did with Expos' ones: trade every single good young star players they had and kill the interest.

This is exactly what killed the Expos. They didn't have to win all the time but at least give the fans an opportunity to root for a player in his prime.

Brochu did the same thing. Just when it came time to buy out a player's FA years, he'd ship them out and replace them with unknowns. Rinse and repeat.

 

[BLONG7]

This is exactly what killed the Expos. They didn't have to win all the time but at least give the fans an opportunity to root for a player in his prime.

Brochu did the same thing. Just when it came time to buy out a player's FA years, he'd ship them out and replace them with unknowns. Rinse and repeat.

Brochu, Loria and Samson...........the 3 stooges killed MLB in Montreal, and Bud Selig helped them do it.........brutal.

Can't wait for the day, we hear there will be MLB returning!!! It will happen. Hopefully this time, the fans will have a reason to return, and stay engaged.

 

[LeHab]

Do you think a new ball park in the TB area will bring more fans to their games ?

Don't know, at least in Montreal bandwagoners would come out when the team was doing well. On the other hand thanks to revenue sharing and Tampa running a low payroll tight ship they are making profits even with low attendance so there is no pressure to sell.

 

[LeHab]

The Loria family did the same trick to Marlins fans than they did with Expos' ones: trade every single good young star players they had and kill the interest.

At least Marlins won 2 WS despite Loria. Jeter group did the latest fire sale trading Stanton, Yelich and others.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

At least Marlins won 2 WS despite Loria. Jeter group did the latest fire sale trading Stanton, Yelich and others.

Yet Jeter complains about how they should somehow be much better this year !

 

[GoodKiwi]

Highly doubtful anytime before current lease expires (2027?). Current TB owners have valuable RE development rights attached to the lease which I doubt they would want to forgo unless someone would really overpay.

There will be threats of a move to push for a new ballpark actually in Tampa but I expect the team to remain in the area.

I wholeheartedly agree that the Rays relocation is highly unlikely before the arena lease expires. Not sure why so many people project the Rays moving up to Montreal as some sort of an inevitability.

Since you seem to be well educated on the subject, let me ask you a couple questions because I'm curious to hear your opinion on them.

1. How likely do you think an MLB expansion is within, say, the next 5-7 years?

2. What do you think about the A's chances of relocating?

 

[LeHab]

I wholeheartedly agree that the Rays relocation is highly unlikely before the arena lease expires. Not sure why so many people project the Rays moving up to Montreal as some sort of an inevitability.

Since you seem to be well educated on the subject, let me ask you a couple questions because I'm curious to hear your opinion on them.

1. How likely do you think an MLB expansion is within, say, the next 5-7 years?

2. What do you think about the A's chances of relocating?

I'm definitely not well educated but hey we all play armchair GMs and coaches so we can play armchair owners too.

I think Montreal media are painting a rosier picture of a reloc to grab attention and sell clicks. When you research around outside of what local media write we don't see many indicators of a likely short term move.

1. Don't know, here is a good article on why Rays are not likely to relocate before lease runs out.

The Tampa Bay Rays Are Not Moving To Montreal Anytime Soon

they actually have a more prohibitive Use Agreement rather than a normal lease.

2. As for A's haven't followed them much. With Raiders leaving for Vegas and GSW moving to the other side of Bay Area how desperate are owners/city/local fans to keep at least one franchise home?

 

[Runner77]

The Tampa Bay Rays Are Not Moving To Montreal Anytime Soon

I remember the above piece being quoted in a previous version of this thread, to which I had provided the following reply: OT: - All-Purpose Expos Return Speculation Topic

We're not going to get a reliable legal opinion out of a sports piece based on generalities.

I love and respect Macramella, but he doesn't practice law in Florida.

Any MLB team that is facing relocation has recourses. Reality is that we don't really know how courts will deal with them.

What I do know is that the jurisdiction of the courts that are designated to hear a lawsuit is important. Florida courts are not NY courts. There is a reason a significant number of major contracts choose NY as their jurisdiction to hear litigation -- NY courts are much more inclined to award high damages and to not detract from the letter of an agreement. Macramella doesn't draw a distinction, nor does he provide background info on this critical aspect. He's arguing the letter of the agreement but how it is going to be interpreted and disposed of is a whole other ballgame.

Also, assuming Florida law applies, there are precedents from sports law and other related industries that could help circumscribe the matter. Of course, there is no legal opinion provided from the firm Macramalla works for cause they weren't mandated to draw one up. There'd be no money in it for them evidently since Expos potential ownership has not retained them. So Macramalla resorts to general principles of contract law to come up with general guidelines.

Bottom line -- Tampa remains a relocation target. And a potential ownership group won't have to wait until 2027 to make it happen. Damages can be quantified and negotiated upon as a cost of doing business. Macramalla's piece doesn't change that in the least.
​

I don't think anything has changed right now to merit a different reply.

We're only going to find out how serious the currently perceived hurdles are when a relocation decision will be imminent.

 

[Habs Halifax]

That is just my speculation. Marlins, currently ranked as the cheapest franchise, were sold for 1.2B without any reloc.

If you want a sense of Forbes numbers -> The Business Of Baseball

My MLB expansion estimation is based on hockey where avg value is estimated at 630M and latest expansion was $650m. Pretty sure MLB will want to settle A's and Rays situation before considering an expansion.

I think teams like Seattle and Tampa might sell but they likely are selling for a healthy profit. So your estimate might not be too far off. Why would they sell their teams for cheaper than what expansion fee would be?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I wholeheartedly agree that the Rays relocation is highly unlikely before the arena lease expires. Not sure why so many people project the Rays moving up to Montreal as some sort of an inevitability.

Since you seem to be well educated on the subject, let me ask you a couple questions because I'm curious to hear your opinion on them.

1. How likely do you think an MLB expansion is within, say, the next 5-7 years?

2. What do you think about the A's chances of relocating?

How long is Tampa stadium lease? Tampa is the logical team to move due to the poor attendance, the division they play in and Montreal fitting well based on location. Tampa has had very good teams over the years and the fans still have a hard time showing up.

As far as a new expansion team in the MLB? Possible if they feel all teams are healthy of have the ability to be a good fit where they are at

Edit: I looked into the lease and it appears it ends in 2028. Looks like it's very difficult to get out of that lease without forking out a buy out payment. Based on what I read, it's anywhere north of $20M. If the team wants to sell, why not just add that cost in the purchase price?

 

[Le Tricolore]

Out of 11 active MLB parks I've been to in person, this one is my favourite.

From those 11... Outside of the AT&T Park it isn't even close IMO.

Which ones have you been to? How would you rank?

I've been to

- Olympic Stadium
- Skydome
- Fenway Park
- Old Yankee Stadium
- Petco Park
- Wrigley Field

In terms of best place to watch a game, nothing comes close to Fenway. In terms of just a the nicest stadium to walk through without being cramped and things not smelling kind of musky due to their age, Petco is incredible. I'm going back in July.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I remember the above piece being quoted in a previous version of this thread, to which I had provided the following reply: OT: - All-Purpose Expos Return Speculation Topic

We're not going to get a reliable legal opinion out of a sports piece based on generalities.

I love and respect Macramella, but he doesn't practice law in Florida.

Any MLB team that is facing relocation has recourses. Reality is that we don't really know how courts will deal with them.

What I do know is that the jurisdiction of the courts that are designated to hear a lawsuit is important. Florida courts are not NY courts. There is a reason a significant number of major contracts choose NY as their jurisdiction to hear litigation -- NY courts are much more inclined to award high damages and to not detract from the letter of an agreement. Macramella doesn't draw a distinction, nor does he provide background info on this critical aspect. He's arguing the letter of the agreement but how it is going to be interpreted and disposed of is a whole other ballgame.

Also, assuming Florida law applies, there are precedents from sports law and other related industries that could help circumscribe the matter. Of course, there is no legal opinion provided from the firm Macramalla works for cause they weren't mandated to draw one up. There'd be no money in it for them evidently since Expos potential ownership has not retained them. So Macramalla resorts to general principles of contract law to come up with general guidelines.

Bottom line -- Tampa remains a relocation target. And a potential ownership group won't have to wait until 2027 to make it happen. Damages can be quantified and negotiated upon as a cost of doing business. Macramalla's piece doesn't change that in the least.
​

I don't think anything has changed right now to merit a different reply.

We're only going to find out how serious the currently perceived hurdles are when a relocation decision will be imminent.

The article said it's 2021 at the earliest and the lease runs out in 2028. Things I got from the article you posted and some questions...

1) The buyout cost to relocate in somewhere in Tampa Bay. $3M per year from 19-22 and $2M per year from 23-26 but no mention from 27-28? So to relocate in Tampa Bay, they agreed on this buy out cost or was that already in the lease somewhere? That would be north of $20M and in another part of the article it said the city of St. Petersburg would say they are owed $200M if the team moves to another city. Seems like this would be anywhere from $20M - $200M to move.

2) I think that if they move before the lease is up, they will battle in court at what is the fair buy out cost. I imagine the judge will factor in the lack of attendance and reduce the amount to some degree? Lets say this happens in 2-4 years and the buy out cost is somewhere around $100M. The franchise is worth $1B right? Would $100M be a major problem when you are likely buying the team for north of $1.5M anyways? I guess that's like $2B CAD.

3) The other option is current owner Sternberg partners up with Bronfman? Any talk about this?

4) What is the rumored cost to build a stadium in Montreal and how long will it take? I'm assuming the stadium cost comes with ideas to build other things around it? So were talking $500M - $1B range and taking about 3 years minimum to build? Is there any talk about this?

Seems like this is somewhere around a $2B to $3B initial investment (+/-) for the Bronfman family. Can't imagine this being lower than $2B unless Sternberg only sells a % of the team.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It was pathetic that Montreal lost the club. MLB should have monitored what was happening and adjusted things to make it more viable,it wasn't just overnight! I see the games are much longer now,slower for sure. Don't recall the length of games when I used to attend the Expos back then and I used to go to a good 50 or more per season.

I believe the NHL is actually lengthening games as opposed to the inference suggested,but not really sure,will only increase now that more reviews will be happening.

Expos leaving was a storm cloud that got bigger in a span of years...

- CAD was worth like 60% of the USD. That was a big deal back when and the TV deals were not as lucrative as they are today.
- The strike and how the Expos were screwed over in that season where they were the best in baseball
- After that strike season, the Expos lost most of their impact players.
- Location of the stadium and fan support

The interest of the general fan was deflated and I suspect they were not happy about that lost season where they were built to win it all.

 

[Roots73]

Edit: I looked into the lease and it appears it ends in 2028. Looks like it's very difficult to get out of that lease without forking out a buy out payment. Based on what I read, it's anywhere north of $20M. If the team wants to sell, why not just add that cost in the purchase price?

Hey perhaps Tropicana field could be the new spring training facility?

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Nothing grips at one’s emotions more than the nostalgia of a favourite ball club. For me, it’s about growing up while living the ups and downs of a team, a great play, a favourite player, stats, enjoying a summer breeze, an afternoon game, a sunset, the roar of the crowd and sharing stories with someone at the game.

I miss all of it, pre-game, post-game, pundit and fan banter.

Maybe your Dad misses them for the same reasons.

I think so too, the Orioles are trash but it would hurt so much to see them relocated.

My family grew up in Vermont which is a pretty quick drive to Montreal, he got to live through the Pedro and Vlad years which he speaks fondly of. The cancelled season when the Expos were in first is still one of the greatest injustices in his life, lol

 

[Habs Halifax]

Hey perhaps Tropicana field could be the new spring training facility?

Not sure how their fan base would feel about that lol. Also, the $20M fee was for moving the team but still in the Tampa area. I later come to find out the cost to get out of the lease and move it to another city would be something like $200M. That's would the city would ask for is what I read. Might be reduced to $100M in a few years and after they battle out a fair deal in court (if they go that route)

 

[Harpo]

Expos leaving was a storm cloud that got bigger in a span of years...

- CAD was worth like 60% of the USD. That was a big deal back when and the TV deals were not as lucrative as they are today.
- The strike and how the Expos were screwed over in that season where they were the best in baseball
- After that strike season, the Expos lost most of their impact players.
- Location of the stadium and fan support

The interest of the general fan was deflated and I suspect they were not happy about that lost season where they were built to win it all.

Expos still had a somewhat decent attendance after 1994 (18-20K). The fatal blow seems to be the Pedro Martinez and Henry Rodriguez trades before the 1998 season (and the team being finally unable to stay competitive despite all the firesales).

 

[Runner77]

Expos leaving was a storm cloud that got bigger in a span of years...

- CAD was worth like 60% of the USD. That was a big deal back when and the TV deals were not as lucrative as they are today.
- The strike and how the Expos were screwed over in that season where they were the best in baseball
- After that strike season, the Expos lost most of their impact players.
- Location of the stadium and fan support

The interest of the general fan was deflated and I suspect they were not happy about that lost season where they were built to win it all.

While the strike left a bitter taste, what really killed the Expos is the repeated fire sales above all and the shortsighted ownership behind them.