All Purpose Coronavirus Discussion Part XVIV: We're Goin Off The Rail On A Crazy Monorail

[Beef Invictus]

I really like this image. Imagine if for a second people united against not just racism which is a huge issue but also against a system that is increasingly socio economically oppressive and leaves communities in squalor while those at the top hoard. That forces communities to turn to crime and hardship.

Imagine if unity for equality extended beyond cops, who are essentially middlemen. Think if people realized we aren’t each others enemies. The system is the enemy.

And any cop who has put in sufficient thought realizes that police brutality puts them in greater danger, too.

 

[Rich Nixon]

I think you can make a good case that Antifa, White Supremacists and Black looters who use a peaceful protest against the killing of black men as cover are all "thugs." And from what I've seen so far, it may be all three that are involved in the violence the last few days.

I think it's really, really goddamn important that we not throw around designations like "white supremacists" or "Antifa" or "black bloc" or "anarchist" or anything else for the mysterious instigators at this point.

Why?

Well, we don't f***ing know who they are. For the most part, the people who are totally certain at this juncture are partisans who universally lump them into the group most opposite of their own ton the political spectrum. Here's what we do know:

• There's overwhelming evidence that people not involved in the protests themselves are showing up in the area and instigating much of the property damage and violence--and note that the word is "instigating", because that's the tactic.
• Exacerbating divisions and creating chaos in hopes of spurring systemic change is a tentpole, foundational goal of extremist groups on both ends of the spectrum. That's the concept behind far, far-left black bloc tactics; it's also the basis of the conspiratorial near-theology at the heart of organized white supremacy.
• Those outside actors appear to overwhelmingly be young white men wearing all black.

...and that's all we know at the moment. We know that selfish assholes are using these protests in a way that they think is a furtherance of their political goals. And yes, quite often, regular protestors or bystanders become participants in the mayhem. Again, that's why it's a tactic, and in riot scenarios groupthink takes over--most people are capable of participating in these actions once the door has been opened (It's extremely common: When the Steelers won the Super Bowl in 2009, I witnessed the tiniest, quietest girl from my Spanish 102 class taking down a traffic meter with her friend. Because everyone else was wrecking shit with impunity).

So, at this juncture, I don't think it's correct to be calling anyone "white supremacists" (which is obviously possible) or "Antifa" (which doesn't actually exist, at least not to the extent or in the form that certain people portray it--but that doesn't mean the assholes aren't all the way left). All that does is feed into someone's narrative or another.

The people taking advantage of this situation to exacerbate problems and cause more mayhem are assholes and they should get the shit kicked out of them by both the protestors and police, no matter their affiliations or aims. We just shouldn't be ascribing those affiliations or aims to them without any proof.

 

[FlyerNutter]

I wonder if I'm allowed to comment or ask a question, or if I'll somehow get singled out for what's been going on for multiple months without me.

Haha be brave young Padawan. I think we’re doing well TBH. Civil. Not really politics.

 

[Lord Defect]

I think it's really, really goddamn important that we not throw around designations like "white supremacists" or "Antifa" or "black bloc" or "anarchist" or anything else for the mysterious instigators at this point.

Why?

Well, we don't f***ing know who they are. For the most part, the people who are totally certain at this juncture are partisans who universally lump them into the group most opposite of their own ton the political spectrum. Here's what we do know:

• There's overwhelming evidence that people not involved in the protests themselves are showing up in the area and instigating much of the property damage and violence--and note that the word is "instigating", because that's the tactic.
• Exacerbating divisions and creating chaos in hopes of spurring systemic change is a tentpole, foundational goal of extremist groups on both ends of the spectrum. That's the concept behind far, far-left black bloc tactics; it's also the basis of the conspiratorial near-theology at the heart of organized white supremacy.
• Those outside actors appear to overwhelmingly be young white men wearing all black.

...and that's all we know at the moment. We know that selfish assholes are using these protests in a way that they think is a furtherance of their political goals. And yes, quite often, regular protestors or bystanders become participants in the mayhem. Again, that's why it's a tactic, and in riot scenarios groupthink takes over--most people are capable of participating in these actions once the door has been opened (It's extremely common: When the Steelers won the Super Bowl in 2009, I witnessed the tiniest, quietest girl from my Spanish 102 class taking down a traffic meter with her friend. Because everyone else was wrecking shit with impunity).

So, at this juncture, I don't think it's correct to be calling anyone "white supremacists" (which is obviously possible) or "Antifa" (which doesn't actually exist, at least not to the extent or in the form that certain people portray it--but that doesn't mean the assholes aren't all the way left). All that does is feed into someone's narrative or another.

The people taking advantage of this situation to exacerbate problems and cause more mayhem are assholes and they should get the shit kicked out of them by both the protestors and police, no matter their affiliations or aims. We just shouldn't be ascribing those affiliations or aims to them without any proof.

Your bullet points fit antifa to a tee, and when antifa shows up you have the proud boys on the other side.
Has it been proven they are there, no, but it’s highly likely they are there.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Do people outside of that range not count? Are they less human? Are they worth less?

Not an answer to the question.

 

[FlyerNutter]

I think it's really, really goddamn important that we not throw around designations like "white supremacists" or "Antifa" or "black bloc" or "anarchist" or anything else for the mysterious instigators at this point.

Why?

Well, we don't f***ing know who they are. For the most part, the people who are totally certain at this juncture are partisans who universally lump them into the group most opposite of their own ton the political spectrum. Here's what we do know:

• There's overwhelming evidence that people not involved in the protests themselves are showing up in the area and instigating much of the property damage and violence--and note that the word is "instigating", because that's the tactic.
• Exacerbating divisions and creating chaos in hopes of spurring systemic change is a tentpole, foundational goal of extremist groups on both ends of the spectrum. That's the concept behind far, far-left black bloc tactics; it's also the basis of the conspiratorial near-theology at the heart of organized white supremacy.
• Those outside actors appear to overwhelmingly be young white men wearing all black.

...and that's all we know at the moment. We know that selfish assholes are using these protests in a way that they think is a furtherance of their political goals. And yes, quite often, regular protestors or bystanders become participants in the mayhem. Again, that's why it's a tactic, and in riot scenarios groupthink takes over--most people are capable of participating in these actions once the door has been opened (It's extremely common: When the Steelers won the Super Bowl in 2009, I witnessed the tiniest, quietest girl from my Spanish 102 class taking down a traffic meter with her friend. Because everyone else was wrecking shit with impunity).

So, at this juncture, I don't think it's correct to be calling anyone "white supremacists" (which is obviously possible) or "Antifa" (which doesn't actually exist, at least not to the extent or in the form that certain people portray it--but that doesn't mean the assholes aren't all the way left). All that does is feed into someone's narrative or another.

The people taking advantage of this situation to exacerbate problems and cause more mayhem are assholes and they should get the shit kicked out of them by both the protestors and police, no matter their affiliations or aims. We just shouldn't be ascribing those affiliations or aims to them without any proof.

Slightly mirrors my point I think. A lot of stupidity out there but to ignore the message and just focus on the chaos. Is also a tactic.

Let’s not pretend who controls the media. The focus on “chaos” is calculated as f***.

 

[deadhead]

A purely historical focus on why to do something, or to not - is flawed imo.

Hell and I won’t go down that historical road, because I’m not as knowledgeable in it. Won’t pretend to be.

I don’t agree with assault on a innocent neighbour. Shop owner. Looting. Burning cop cars or throwing things at police. That’s disgusting.

I do however believe that peaceful demonstrations will not be enough to create change. A small fire is lit, and has been for some time. The fire will continue to grow imo. Crazy times. I do appreciate the civility in the conversation. *hat tip*

George Santayana: 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. '

Aldous Huxley: “That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history.”

Confucius: “Study the past if you would define the future.”

 

[FlyerNutter]

George Santayana: 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. '

Aldous Huxley: “That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history.”

Confucius: “Study the past if you would define the future.”

Again I don’t disagree it’s important, but like I stated before - it’s not the be all, end all. To move forward, one must also be willing to evolve past what we have done in the past.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Not an answer to the question.

And yet it's an important question to ask since your insistence on ignoring them automatically indicates their deaths don't matter.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Your bullet points fit antifa to a tee, and when antifa shows up you have the proud boys on the other side.
Has it been proven they are there, no, but it’s highly likely they are there.

Antifa in the US is tiny and localized to the NW by and large. They are poorly organized. They are used as a catch-all scapegoat to de-legitimize protests and yet in the end further investigation rarely if ever ends up putting them at fault.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Your bullet points fit antifa to a tee, and when antifa shows up you have the proud boys on the other side.
Has it been proven they are there, no, but it’s highly likely they are there.

"Antifa," in this sense, isn't real. I mean, yes, there's some Facebook groups declaring themselves that, and there are certainly plenty of anti-fascists in the US and world who would describe themselves that way, but there is no organized "American Antifa" with any leadership structure or centralization or anything like that. It's not a real group: It's a construct, at this point, built more by those who want to weaponize its imaginary threat than by any group of people.

The people you've seen described as "Antifa" in any given protest are typically film majors and librarians and students and whoever else who will reliably show up to protest whenever the "fa" part of the equation tries to come show out. Sure, they'll take the moniker if you give it to them, but it's not an established entity. The construct and portrayal of it as one, however, isn't an accident. There are legitimate, organized, dangerous, domestic terrorist organizations operating in the US--they typically concentrate on one end of the political spectrum (think the Klan, the Proud Boys you mentioned, any number of racist militias). Rather than cleaning that shit up, members of the more presentable side of that spectrum will historically just try to equivocate. Hence "both sides" rhetoric and the repeated allegation that there is an equivalent group on the other end. There isn't, but that doesn't matter: The point is to shout out that there is nonstop, so no one's held to account for the mess they allowed to form in their own backyard.

That's not to say there aren't people who are very far to the political left here showing up and doing this shit--anarchists and black bloc fetishists and the like aren't new. It's just saying that term being thrown around--Antifa--exists more in internet text and political rhetoric than in actuality. Why? Well, "random smelly bar employees and skinny literary studies majors" doesn't have quite the same ring or menace to it. But that's what we're talking about when we talk about "Antifa."

 

[deadhead]

I have seen some in the crowds who fit the classic anti-FA, black hoods, covered faces, breaking windows, etc.
There's also been a few white guys who don't fit the anti-FA pattern doing damage.
We'll see after the arrests when they're processed and investigated.

If I'm a judge, I'm throwing the book at all these guys, because they're just not endangering people, they're also perverting the right to assemble and protest, which is a cornerstone of our democracy - I mean unlike stupidity like not wearing masks, etc. IT'S IN THE CONSTITUTION:

1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the right of the people to peacefully assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

[DancingPanther]

.........

 

[BiggE]

Dear Father Time,
Can we please have 2019 back?
Thanks,
Humanity

 

[FlyerNutter]

Antifa in the US is tiny and localized to the NW by and large. They are poorly organized. They are used as a catch-all scapegoat to de-legitimize protests and yet in the end further investigation rarely if ever ends up putting them at fault.

Are they out there? Yup. As are other groups.

It’s an easy way to try to invalidate any sort of protest.

You could have had protests against our lovely old chicken shit friend Hakstol and if some moron threw a Molotov at the Wells Fargo... doesn’t mean the message of Hakstol being an idiot is incorrect.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Are they out there? Yup. As are other groups.

It’s an easy way to try to invalidate any sort of protest.

You could have had protests against our lovely old chicken shit friend Hakstol and if some moron threw a Molotov at the Wells Fargo... doesn’t mean the message of Hakstol being an idiot is incorrect.

They are barely out there. Not just numerically, but in terms of organization. And yet they've become a bizarre boogeyman hyped up far beyond their actual reach or capability.

For reference, who is the leader of Antifa? Good luck naming one. It can't really be done because there is no leadership or organization to speak of. And yet we know who leads various white nationalist groups.

 

[Starat327]

@Hollywood Couturier I'm coming over.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Dear Father Time,
Can we please have 2019 back?
Thanks,
Humanity

My hairline wouldn’t low key be starting to be a concern.

 

[deadhead]

That's not to say there aren't people on very far to the political left here showing up and doing this shit--anarchists and black bloc fetishists and the like aren't new. It's just saying that term being thrown around--Antifa--exists more in internet text and political rhetoric than in actuality.

Antifa isn't real in the sense of an organized group, but you can say the same for a lot of white supremacists, many are just facebook followers who show up when a few agitators fire them up. The internet allows the creation of subcultures (HF boards?) based around rhetoric, but it also identifies people that agitators can cajole into action at times. And can give free lancers a template to feel like they belong to something bigger.

There's a tendency in America, often drummed up by the media, to see organized conspiracies by people who struggle to take out the trash.

 

[deadhead]

So they're heading up Cottman avenue to Township line, that's a couple miles from me.
Good thing I have a fierce dog to protect me!

 

[Chinatown88]

Xenoblade Chronicles Definitive Edition has autorun. Bless the devs.

 

[Striiker]

Hey, at least people are wearing masks. #FlattenTheCityCurve

 

[deadhead]

And this will certainly make it easier to enforce stay at home orders.

 

[Starat327]

Let's make this better. I'll start:

 

[Lotusflower]

Name a successful revolution.

The American revolution was one in name only, the Founding Fathers were essentially conservative, and fighting for their rights as Englishmen.
France, Russia, China, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Mexico . . .

Reform does happen, just read American history, a few cop killings pale next to the Tulsa riot or the Wilmington, NC insurrection, Jim Crow, lynching et al. Reform is not emotionally satisfying because it reeks of compromise, but incremental change is still change and people benefit.

Yeats wrote that poem just after WWI, fearing he'd lose his wife to the 1918 flu and watching the gathering storm in Ireland.
A far worse time than ours.

Haiti 1791-1804.

Hobbled Napoleon from a world away. Began the breakdown of the inhumanity of trading human flesh in the West.
Its momentum was only stopped by a world economy based on white supremacy.

Isolated economically by white supremacist nations, the entirety of the 1st world at the time, those formerly in bondage were forced to pay reparations to their former slaveholders. 150 million in gold.

Haiti is educational. You can smash at a system physically but until the framework that surrounds and upholds it is torn down unrest and injustice will persist.