Coach Discussion: All-purpose Coach discussion thread

[YWGinYYZ]

There's been a fair amount of discussion about Maurice, Kompon, Huddy, etc: figured we could use a thread to allow for discussion of the coaching staff in general, and a place for us to move discussion that ends up being solely focused on coaching from other threads.

Click to read more...

 

[pucka lucka]

He seemed to do just fine last year while playing predominantly LW on the Moose. But I do think your correct in that Maurice seems to value the ability to grind in his wingers. I personally disagree with his over emphasis on it as there are more then one way to be effective and we don't need to type cast certain roles to specific player types.

This is my biggest problem with coaches like PoMo. They aren't dynamic. They are method coaches. It is really fascinating how little imagination there is in the NHL.

 

[surixon]

This is my biggest problem with coaches like PoMo. They aren't dynamic. They are method coaches. It is really fascinating how little imagination there is in the NHL.

I would agree with this. It's my biggest issue as well.

 

[Imcanadianeh]

This is my biggest problem with coaches like PoMo. They aren't dynamic. They are method coaches. It is really fascinating how little imagination there is in the NHL.

I think PoMo imagines coaching a team that’s #1 in the central division, #1 in the western conference and #2 in the entire league.

 

[Bob E]

I think PoMo imagines coaching a team that’s #1 in the central division, #1 in the western conference and #2 in the entire league.

It’s not about winning. It’s about being dynamic.

 

[surixon]

I think PoMo imagines coaching a team that’s #1 in the central division, #1 in the western conference and #2 in the entire league.

You can be very effective being a method coach if you have talent at your disposal but pucka lucka is correct in that there isn't much in the way of innovative thinking in the NHL. Most coaches are running a slightly different variant of the same systems and most coaches use the same template when setting their lineups.

 

[LowLefty]

You can be very effective being a method coach if you have talent at your disposal but pucka lucka is correct in that there isn't much in the way of innovative thinking in the NHL. Most coaches are running a slightly different variant of the same systems and most coaches use the same template when setting their lineups.

I wonder why they do that?

I'd take a look at this from another angle:
So you have the talent already - now it's time to reinvent the wheel?

Now we are nitpicking - certain players are not being played as some of would prefer, so the coach, who's winning, is not dynamic enough.

 

[KingBogo]

You can be very effective being a method coach if you have talent at your disposal but pucka lucka is correct in that there isn't much in the way of innovative thinking in the NHL. Most coaches are running a slightly different variant of the same systems and most coaches use the same template when setting their lineups.

I don't even know if this makes sense at a theoretical level. You have 700 of the best hockey players in the world who have grown up on the game playing for 31 coaches that have fought their way through multiple levels and have dedicated their lives to the craft. Watching and observing trying to find every real life advantage in actual games but no they are all wrong it is really a couple hundred hardcore fans on a fan forum that has the key to success. I just wish someone would share what this is, because I'm kind of curious what innovations and new variants are being suppressed.

 

[garret9]

I think PoMo imagines coaching a team that’s #1 in the central division, #1 in the western conference and #2 in the entire league.

Hypothetically speaking, if all coaches make the same or similar mistakes, then being the best of the bunch doesn’t prove that they are not making that mistake... even if the entire market isn’t flawed, you could be best in most of all areas and struggle in some.

Like I find this logic of complacency in as long as you are winning with hockey weird. The world class powerlifters and weightlifters don’t just assume they dieted and trained right to get there. They could just be out of happenstance and other factors, and look to evidence based research and experts to help them improve.

There’s a difference between good, better, best, and perfect.

 

[tbcwpg]

Hypothetically speaking, if all coaches make the same or similar mistakes, then being the best of the bunch doesn’t prove that they are not making that mistake... even if the entire market isn’t flawed, you could be best in most of all areas and struggle in some.

Like I find this logic of complacency in as long as you are winning with hockey weird. The world class powerlifters and weightlifters don’t just assume they dieted and trained right to get there. They could just be out of happenstance and other factors, and look to evidence based research and experts to help them improve.

There’s a difference between good, better, best, and perfect.

I agree with you that coaches should always look to improve their team, if they can.

I disagree with those who say Maurice is a bad coach because he doesn't play their favourite prospect or preferred goaltender.

 

[Analyst365]

Hypothetically speaking, if all coaches make the same or similar mistakes, then being the best of the bunch doesn’t prove that they are not making that mistake... even if the entire market isn’t flawed, you could be best in most of all areas and struggle in some.

Like I find this logic of complacency in as long as you are winning with hockey weird. The world class powerlifters and weightlifters don’t just assume they dieted and trained right to get there. They could just be out of happenstance and other factors, and look to evidence based research and experts to help them improve.

There’s a difference between good, better, best, and perfect.

 

[antiqueslivers]

oooh gawdamn you nailed it. On so many levels, you nailed it!

 

[surixon]

I don't even know if this makes sense at a theoretical level. You have 700 of the best hockey players in the world who have grown up on the game playing for 31 coaches that have fought their way through multiple levels and have dedicated their lives to the craft. Watching and observing trying to find every real life advantage in actual games but no they are all wrong it is really a couple hundred hardcore fans on a fan forum that has the key to success. I just wish someone would share what this is, because I'm kind of curious what innovations and new variants are being suppressed.

So then why do so many of the same habits/short comings seem widespread and slow to dissolve.

For instance the analytic community was stating that it was ineffective to dress fighters that couldn't play a regular shift but it took the coaching/management fraternity a number of years to start to catch on. If there wasn't merit they wouldn't have adapted the suggestion but there was a lag. One of those coaches happened to be Maurice.

I'm just saying that the NHL seems to be slow to change and coaches seem to hold onto more traditional ways of thinking. Maurice still likes to set his line up based off the traditional top 6, checking third line and some role players on the fourth line when teams are starting to move towards dressing more balanced top nines.

The NHL in many ways is an old boys club that continues to employee ex players in all aspects of its operations who in many cases don't have high levels of education. All of which were brought up in the NHL and what they know is the NHL culture and how things have been done. They are brought in and groomed by older members of the NHL fraternity and the cycle continues. How many coaches continue to be recycled in the league? So yes these guys continue to look for every advantage but many of them are very like minded and were brought up in very similar environments. Do you not think there might not be some group think going on in the league?

Some of the best coaches have come from very different backgrounds like John Cooper. Cooper never played professionally, he earned a business and Law degree and spent the first 11 years of his career as a Public Defender before he started coaching. He was the first to stop doing pre game skates as there didn't seem to be any benefit. He was also one of the first to spread his talent throughout his line and use skilled players in non traditional roles. Fresh blood and fresh ideas are important in any industry and the NHL is no different. The NHL has been rather slow to open its doors to different minded people. We are starting to see that more and more with a number of organizations bringing in highly educated and bright people who weren't indoctrinated in NHL culture into their ranks. The Leafs are another good example of this with how they are investing in and utilizing analytics. Babcock loads his talent throughout his lineup now. He doesn't use traditional configurations any longer for instance.

 

[garret9]

^ I agree with a lot of this. And I want to point out that agreement doesn't have to be insulting to those that come via a more traditional hockey background. You do the same as what was when you played. You were told when you played that you need X or Y must be done, and then confirmation bias solidifies those statements. It's just part of being human.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

Is Maurice mismanaging goaltender starts? Helle seemed way tired in the post season last year. We have the best backup in the league year to date and he isn't even on track to get 18 starts. I'd like to see Bro get 25 starts (said it a month or so ago), but if he's lucky he'll get 20. Seems like we haven't learned from what happened last year.

 

[Keystone]

Is Maurice mismanaging goaltender starts? Helle seemed way tired in the post season last year. We have the best backup in the league year to date and he isn't even on track to get 18 starts. I'd like to see Bro get 25 starts (said it a month or so ago), but if he's lucky he'll get 20. Seems like we haven't learned from what happened last year.

Yup. I’ve heard plenty of sound bites of Maurice stating that the experience the young players gain year to year is effectively what improves the club moving forward.
Yet I fail to see Maurice practicing what he preaches and learning from past experiences.

 

[surixon]

I'm just puzzled that our coach with all this talent at his disposal hasn't figured out a way to add more misdirection and nuances into our breakout.

One way to beat the trap is throigh quick puck movement to moving targets. Most of our breakouts go through stationary wingers on the wall. It's pretty predictable and not hard to defend.

If Maurice doesn't feel he has the dmen in the lineup to do this, well that is by his making as well be leaving Morrow and Chariot in over a superior breakout player in Niku.

Petan has also shown himself to be quite good this year at clean zone exits and entries. I think we need more of this type of skill in the lineup especially with Buff and Ehlers out.

 

[Gil Fisher]

i think coaches generally around the league suck (in that I will disagree with them on 25-50% of the decisions they make). so i'm not bothered as much by the things that maurice et al do wrong.

 

[Jack722]

Is Maurice mismanaging goaltender starts? Helle seemed way tired in the post season last year. We have the best backup in the league year to date and he isn't even on track to get 18 starts. I'd like to see Bro get 25 starts (said it a month or so ago), but if he's lucky he'll get 20. Seems like we haven't learned from what happened last year.

Something I dislike about our coaching staff is how completely inflexible they seem.

It's been pre-decided that Helle will start X number of games, so that's going to happen no matter what.

Wheeler and Scheifele will be linemates. Nothing could happen that would split them.

Petan will not play, no matter how well he does.

Morrow will play, no matter how poorly he plays.

Laine and Little will play together. ELL will be a line for 80 games because that's what we've practiced. CLL is the new line and it will stick regardless of how it plays.

Lemieux is in now. Hope he improves because he's not getting dropped, ever.

Perreault is a bottom sixer and that's the way it is.


It seems like there is zero creativity or adaptability.

 

[surixon]

Something I dislike about our coaching staff is how completely inflexible they seem.

It's been pre-decided that Helle will start X number of games, so that's going to happen no matter what.

Wheeler and Scheifele will be linemates. Nothing could happen that would split them.

Petan will not play, no matter how well he does.

Morrow will play, no matter how poorly he plays.

Laine and Little will play together. ELL will be a line for 80 games because that's what we've practiced. CLL is the new line and it will stick regardless of how it plays.

Lemieux is in now. Hope he improves because he's not getting dropped, ever.

Perreault is a bottom sixer and that's the way it is.


It seems like there is zero creativity or adaptability.

I also wonder if he might be a bit too quick to make his mind up on players and combinations and then has a hard time with changing it. It would explain some of his rigidity and lack of experimentation.

 

[Jack722]

I also wonder if he might be a bit too quick to make his mind up on players and combinations and then has a hard time with changing it. It would explain some of his rigidity and lack of experimentation.

Yeah; I'm wondering if that's stubbornness or if maybe ideas about seniority/dressing room hierarchy are prioritized over hockey skills.

 

[surixon]

Yeah; I'm wondering if that's stubbornness or if maybe ideas about seniority/dressing room hierarchy are prioritized over hockey skills.

He most certainly adheres to seniority and hierarchy based reasoning and decision making. Despite being the best dmen on the team the last few seasons it took Maurice until this year to give Morrissey consistient PP time. If it was based on talent he would have played there consistently as a rookie. Trouba also has been passed over for vets.

Maurice will give his vets priority for roles over kids. See wheeler on the top line over Laine. Chariot and Morrow over Niku.

 

[Duke749]

I'm just puzzled that our coach with all this talent at his disposal hasn't figured out a way to add more misdirection and nuances into our breakout.

One way to beat the trap is throigh quick puck movement to moving targets. Most of our breakouts go through stationary wingers on the wall. It's pretty predictable and not hard to defend.

If Maurice doesn't feel he has the dmen in the lineup to do this, well that is by his making as well be leaving Morrow and Chariot in over a superior breakout player in Niku.

Petan has also shown himself to be quite good this year at clean zone exits and entries. I think we need more of this type of skill in the lineup especially with Buff and Ehlers out.

You think the whole stationary winger thing is by design? Oh god we’re f***ed if that’s the case.

 

[surixon]

You think the whole stationary winger thing is by design? Oh god we’re ****ed if that’s the case.

I have no idea but either way it's on the coach to address it. If the players have been instructed to play differently then it's on him to get them to play that way.

I would suspect it is more strategy though given the fact that 3 of our dmen can't move the puck that well and revert to putting it up the boards most of the time.

 

[Gm0ney]

This may have been posted elsewhere, but good lord, Maurice...on the first night of a b2b you run these horses pretty hard:



This team's going to have nothing left in the tank for the playoffs. It looks like they're out of gas a lot of nights now.