All Alfredsson Discussion

[The Fuhr*]

I think when he said we couldn't sign Alfredsson and trade for Ryan, he meant we couldn't sign Alfie to the "blank cheque" contract of 6 mil.

There is still the potential that we could have signed Alfie to a more reasonable (read discounted) 4-4.5 mil contract, traded for Ryan, but not signed MacArthur.

To me this seems only logical, as the trade for Ryan seemed far too quick after Alfredsson's decision was made to not have been discussed earlier, and it fits in with the timelines and description of events that Murray stated.

This is what he said

In an exclusive interview with the Citizen, Melnyk said the team wouldn’t have been able to afford a player the calibre of Bobby Ryan — the Anaheim Ducks’ star forward the team dealt for hours after learning Alfredsson would sign elsewhere — and meet the numbers put forward by Alfredsson’s camp.

“You can’t have it both ways and say, ‘Well I want this for me, but I want you to do this with me and the team.’ It’s ‘which one do you want?’â€

Melnyk says he eventually told general manager Bryan Murray: “We won’t be able to spend that kind of money, so don’t promise that we’re going to bring anybody else in other han filling a hole that was there.â€

 

[harvey]

Right, so alfie knew we were not making a run at the cup if he signed here.
We would not sign any high priced extra player if alfie signed here.

cut and dried

he wanted to try a run at the cup, and to hopefully make the swedish olympic team.

 

[Super Cake]

Right, so alfie knew we were not making a run at the cup if he signed here.
We would not sign any high priced extra player if alfie signed here.

cut and dried

he wanted to try a run at the cup, and to hopefully make the swedish olympic team.

If he wanted to try a run at the cup, he should have chosen boston. He chose detroit probably because of the swedish connection.

 

[Micklebot]

This is what he said

Seems pretty much in line with what I said no? The team could not sign Alfie at the numbers his agent put forward (6 mil) and sign Ryan.

We won't be able to spend that kind of money (6 mil + another acquisition) Don't promise to go after anyone else other than filling a vacant hole.


Ryan 5.562
MacArthur 3.250
Total 8.812 x 2 years

vs

Ryan 5.562
Alfredsson 4-4.5
Total 9.562-10.062 for one year, 5.562 committed to year 2

The last option might seem a little out of reach, but in real dollars could be a little cheaper than option 1 because Alfredsson's contract disappears after one year (likely replaced internally by entry level contracts, or some lower cost UFA), while what we actually did lockes us up for 2 years of 8.812 mil.

 

[harvey]

If he wanted to try a run at the cup, he should have chosen boston. He chose detroit probably because of the swedish connection.

agreed, because for him and other swedes, the winning the olympics is bigger than winning a stanley cup.

 

[Micklebot]

If he wanted to try a run at the cup, he should have chosen boston. He chose detroit probably because of the swedish connection.

Don't forget a system he was already used to. Maclean runs a similar system to Babcock, so he has a better idea of how he fits in.

 

[Super Cake]

Don't forget a system he was already used to. Maclean runs a similar system to Babcock, so he has a better idea of how he fits in.

I know, it is just that nothing leads me to believe that detroit will win the cup next year. They snuck into the playoffs last season just like ottawa did. Yes they took the blackhawks to game 7, but was that because chicago sucked at the beginning or was detroit really that good? When chicago started to actually play in game 5, they became unstoppable.

 

[The Fuhr*]

I know, it is just that nothing leads me to believe that detroit will win the cup next year. They snuck into the playoffs last season just like ottawa did. Yes they took the blackhawks to game 7, but was that because chicago sucked at the beginning or was detroit really that good? When chicago started to actually play in game 5, they were unstoppable.

I'd argue the east is weaker then the west... Detroit is middle of the pack in the West... but the East, I'd only label Boston as being flat out better then them.

 

[Micklebot]

I know, it is just that nothing leads me to believe that detroit will win the cup next year. They snuck into the playoffs last season just like ottawa did. Yes they took the blackhawks to game 7, but was that because chicago sucked at the beginning or was detroit really that good? When chicago started to actually play in game 5, they were unstoppable.

It's worth noting that while it seemingly didn't get as much press on the sens board, Detroit was also devastated by injuries in the reg season (though not as top heavy as the sens). They also had their share in the playoffs.

 

[Super Cake]

It's worth noting that while it seemingly didn't get as much press on the sens board, Detroit was also devastated by injuries in the reg season (though not as top heavy as the sens). They also had their share in the playoffs.

I guess you have a point. I still don't see them winning the cup though.

 

[BrawlFan]

The only fail here is your inexplicable inability to follow simple logic.



Oh yeah yeah. Let's just give all the players any amount of money they want. Let's also give all of them ponies. And maids. And unicorns and rainbows. And let's plant fields of money trees for them too. Are you ****ing kidding me? "He asked for it and we should have given it to him"??? Are you even serious? Jesus.

You give Alfie what he wants. Face of the franchise, our captain, our leader, the guy who's name is chanted every game. He was given a blank cheque at the end, which means he was THAT important. The reason he isn't here right now is because we couldn't afford him.

I win a technicality award? Yeah I guess if by technicality you mean the accurate interpretation of the cap that is tied to league-wide revenues. In case you didn't realize, the cap used to be lower because revenues were lower. The cap moves up almost entirely because of the earning power of the top 8 teams in the league, of which Ottawa has never been one. Is this really that hard to understand? Which part of small market team spending like a big market team for years leads you to believe that there is an "internal budget"? How thick do you have to be to actually believe that?

LMAO!!!! Are you serious? Do you even analyze anything or just post blindly and then beleive the nonsense you post. Our ticket prices were the same, he's been on this internal budget for years and by us making the second round this year and not increasing it means the money is going somewhere, probobally Melnyk.

The $14.5 million operating income are earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. You think Melnyk is actually pocketing $14.5 million after last year? You were a financial auditor you said? Yet you have absolutely no clue what an operating income is. Mind blowing.

Well how could I miss that?!? Seriously, you must be a genius or something. Because i know Amortization/Depreciation takes a big big chunk of cash flow. I mean a ton. Have you seen the latest amortization/depreciation payments. They are skyrocketing through the roof! And then you have the real cash flow implications of interest and taxes which is likely more than the 14.5 million! Clearly Melnyk ends up with a loss, no way he has anything left at the end he can invest into the team.

Leave it to the professional on this one. Just sit back and stop guessing accounting.

Let me restate what I said before. If this team was spending to the cap most years and outside of a lucrative run to the Finals they were losing millions at the end of the year, where does THAT money come from? You think debt just disappears like you can just wish it away? What the **** kind of la la land are you living in?

Tell me where Melnyk was getting the money for the years where he was losing millions? That's where the $14.5 million went. Just because he makes some money at the end of an unexpectedly above average year makes him a bad guy? What the hell is up with some of you guys? Do you also run your personal finances in to debt every year? Or do you feel the pinch and try to cut back some spending in some places until you can afford to start spending again? Who have you been auditing for? Nortel???? "Yup, everything's great guys. Go ahead and ok those bonuses and salary hikes for the executive management. Let's just keep spending money until this whole ****ing thing comes crashing down." Get real.

As John Holmes has said using GAAP you can make a 4 million dollar profit look like a 2 million dollar loss and be adhering to all laws. If you think Melnyk isnt taking a substantial portion of the profit for himself your fooling yourself. And if you know this and are still debating me then I cant beleive I wasted my time with someone like you all day because my whole point was that we now have a greedy owner who isnt putting any money back into the team and just pocketing it. I know I know he has to make amortization payments in cash! but still he may have a couple million he could have put back into the team and signed a guy like......Alfie.....or something I'm not too sure.

Anyway clearly your either Melnyk or work for Melnyk. Your a Melnyk fan, not a sens fan. If you were a SENS fan you would be outraged at how a greedy owner is holding us back from actually winning.

He needs to shut the **** up about losing money, either that or he needs to make those amortization payments on credit.


The whole post was a complete joke to me and I cant beleive you bothered posting it. Anyway Im done with a Melnyk fan, clearly your just going to post technicalities about how he should be able to keep money or how we spent to the cap and how i want players to get rainbows in my la la land but the real issue is that you need to get real. YOU need to understand that unless we spend money on good players and have depth we are NEVER going to win a cup. This is a sens fans forum, you dont like it go make a Melnyk fan forum and post there.

 

[Bruinswillwin77]

I've always respected and generally liked Alfredsson and was really hoping he was coming to Boston.

 

[BankStreetParade]

You give Alfie what he wants. Face of the franchise, our captain, our leader, the guy who's name is chanted every game. He was given a blank cheque at the end, which means he was THAT important. The reason he isn't here right now is because we couldn't afford him.

How could we not afford him? Yet we traded for a guy who makes $5+ million, signed a guy for $3+ million and signed another guy for ~$1 million while giving a raise to Weircioch? Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

LMAO!!!! Are you serious? Do you even analyze anything or just post blindly and then beleive the nonsense you post. Our ticket prices were the same, he's been on this internal budget for years and by us making the second round this year and not increasing it means the money is going somewhere, probobally Melnyk.

Provide proof that this team has been on an internal budget for years. Just because you keep saying something doesn't actually mean that it's true.

Well how could I miss that?!? Seriously, you must be a genius or something. Because i know Amortization/Depreciation takes a big big chunk of cash flow. I mean a ton. Have you seen the latest amortization/depreciation payments. They are skyrocketing through the roof! And then you have the real cash flow implications of interest and taxes which is likely more than the 14.5 million! Clearly Melnyk ends up with a loss, no way he has anything left at the end he can invest into the team.

Leave it to the professional on this one. Just sit back and stop guessing accounting.

OK???????

As John Holmes has said using GAAP you can make a 4 million dollar profit look like a 2 million dollar loss and be adhering to all laws. If you think Melnyk isnt taking a substantial portion of the profit for himself your fooling yourself. And if you know this and are still debating me then I cant beleive I wasted my time with someone like you all day because my whole point was that we now have a greedy owner who isnt putting any money back into the team and just pocketing it. I know I know he has to make amortization payments in cash! but still he may have a couple million he could have put back into the team and signed a guy like......Alfie.....or something I'm not too sure.

So if the figures show that Melnyk is making a profit, then he's a bad guy. And if the figures show that the team lost money, then he just used some creative accounting to make it look he lost money all the while taking in profits - still looks like a bad guy. Do you even comprehend how ****ing Pejorative Slured that sounds?

So why doesn't he just make it look like he loses money every year? If his plan is to just quietly keep profits while making it look like the team is struggling, why would he ever show that the team made any money? Wouldn't he be better off showing that he's losing money every year so that he can also get a cut of revenue sharing? You sound delusional dude. Like tin foil hat delusional.

Anyway clearly your either Melnyk or work for Melnyk. Your a Melnyk fan, not a sens fan. If you were a SENS fan you would be outraged at how a greedy owner is holding us back from actually winning.

Really?!?!?! How is someone a Melnyk fan? What does that even mean? That when I watch the games on TV and buy tickets I'm actually going to watch Melnyk rather than the product on the ice? If you're trying to hurt my feelings or insult me you did a horrendous job because that has to be the lamest attempt at an insult I've ever seen.

He needs to shut the **** up about losing money, either that or he needs to make those amortization payments on credit.

The whole post was a complete joke to me and I cant beleive you bothered posting it. Anyway Im done with a Melnyk fan, clearly your just going to post technicalities about how he should be able to keep money or how we spent to the cap and how i want players to get rainbows in my la la land but the real issue is that you need to get real. YOU need to understand that unless we spend money on good players and have depth we are NEVER going to win a cup. This is a sens fans forum, you dont like it go make a Melnyk fan forum and post there.

You mean players like Spezza, Karlsson, Ryan, Michalek, Anderson? You need to understand that you don't really know the first thing about how teams are built. For every team that you can show winning the Stanley Cup and spending to the cap, I can show you 5 teams from that same year who spent to the cap and didn't win jack ****. And there's probably going to be another 5 teams who spent close to the cap as well with no result.

Admit it, you just hate Melnyk. That's cool. But don't pretend that everything he's ever done in his tenure as owner was detrimental to the team.

 

[BrawlFan]

How could we not afford him? Yet we traded for a guy who makes $5+ million, signed a guy for $3+ million and signed another guy for ~$1 million while giving a raise to Weircioch? Yeah that makes a lot of sense.



Provide proof that this team has been on an internal budget for years. Just because you keep saying something doesn't actually mean that it's true.



OK???????



So if the figures show that Melnyk is making a profit, then he's a bad guy. And if the figures show that the team lost money, then he just used some creative accounting to make it look he lost money all the while taking in profits - still looks like a bad guy. Do you even comprehend how ****ing Pejorative Slured that sounds?

So why doesn't he just make it look like he loses money every year? If his plan is to just quietly keep profits while making it look like the team is struggling, why would he ever show that the team made any money? Wouldn't he be better off showing that he's losing money every year so that he can also get a cut of revenue sharing? You sound delusional dude. Like tin foil hat delusional.



Really?!?!?! How is someone a Melnyk fan? What does that even mean? That when I watch the games on TV and buy tickets I'm actually going to watch Melnyk rather than the product on the ice? If you're trying to hurt my feelings or insult me you did a horrendous job because that has to be the lamest attempt at an insult I've ever seen.



You mean players like Spezza, Karlsson, Ryan, Michalek, Anderson? You need to understand that you don't really know the first thing about how teams are built. For every team that you can show winning the Stanley Cup and spending to the cap, I can show you 5 teams from that same year who spent to the cap and didn't win jack ****. And there's probably going to be another 5 teams who spent close to the cap as well with no result.

Admit it, you just hate Melnyk. That's cool. But don't pretend that everything he's ever done in his tenure as owner was detrimental to the team.

This is the last post im giving you because I'm convinced your just trolling me with your 300 posts. BUT I'm hopeful that your an actual sens fan who just cant see the light so here goes:

First point: Yes, thats why Alfie left. We couldnt afford him. Melnyk just came out. JUST LITERALLY CAME OUT and said that if we kept Alfie then we couldnt have gotten Ryan. IF YOU READ WHAT I WROTE I said that we should have signed alfie to his demands and then gotten Ryan therefore, spend money and make a run. If after two years of playoffs and last year going two rounds deep Melnyk doesnt want to pony up the difference between McArthur's contract (3.25) and Alfie (6.0) because he is "losing money" then he's being greedy and I cant accept that as a fan.

Second point: Proof is how much we spend. If you do the same thing everyday of your life, thats what you do.

Third point: Dont talk about stuff you dont know anything about. You mocked my comment about 14.5 million in income by claiming it was the EBIT figure, which it was. But how much cash flow is actually lost from that figure? just interest and taxes, which still leaves something for investing into the team. If your going to dissagree with me just know what your talking about first thats all.

Fourth point: Again your not really knowledgeable about what your talking about. It's not like GAAP allows you to turn anything and everything into a loss. You have certain guidelines that you are allowed to operate in and maximize your tax planning efforts. Despite a corporations best efforts a company may still need to file a profitable financial statement for a variety of reasons: cannot exploit the ITA any further and have already maximized their tax planning efforts, financing requests...etc... Every business in the world will show the least amount of profit as possible, after everything their accountants have done, which is all legal, they still reported a profit of 14.5 million dollars. If he had it his way he would report it as a loss but he can only operate within specified rules and regulations and maximize those opportunities.

Fifth point: I have my opinion you have yours.

Sixth point: If you want to show me something, show me the cup winners since the last lockout (2004-2005) and how much the spent with relation to the cap. The cap forces teams to make choices on your core and the depth you surround them with. The higher quality of depth a team has the better they perform. Teams that spend to the cap typically have good depth. I would love love love to see the cup winners and how much they spent compared to the cap in that respective year. I bet most would be spending right to the top.

I have stated all along that I dont like Melnyk because of his recent greedy choices, I've never hid it. I just dont understand how someone can stick up for him for taking money out of the team and not letting us have a competetive chance at winning? That is a selfish decision by him and as fans its unacceptable. The only person who should be happy about this is Melnyk

 

[M4TR1X]

If he wanted to try a run at the cup, he should have chosen boston. He chose detroit probably because of the swedish connection.

agreed, because for him and other swedes, the winning the olympics is bigger than winning a stanley cup.

Alfredsson already has his gold medal. He's one of the Euro players that do care for winning a Stanley Cup. I don't think he chose Detroit for just a Swedish connection, unless it was a Swedish connection while winning the Stanley Cup.

The big reason is because Detroit has a nice team that very could've been in the finals last year and not too much of it has changed. The respect you get their attracts a lot of players along with it's chances of success.

 

[BankStreetParade]

This is the last post im giving you because I'm convinced your just trolling me with your 300 posts. BUT I'm hopeful that your an actual sens fan who just cant see the light so here goes:

This doesn't deserve a response.

First point: Yes, thats why Alfie left. We couldnt afford him. Melnyk just came out. JUST LITERALLY CAME OUT and said that if we kept Alfie then we couldnt have gotten Ryan. IF YOU READ WHAT I WROTE I said that we should have signed alfie to his demands and then gotten Ryan therefore, spend money and make a run. If after two years of playoffs and last year going two rounds deep Melnyk doesnt want to pony up the difference between McArthur's contract (3.25) and Alfie (6.0) because he is "losing money" then he's being greedy and I cant accept that as a fan.

Or maybe it's the fact that the team genuinely didn't believe that Alfredsson was worth the money he was asking for. "Blank cheque" was a way to save face most likely and an easy way for the team to create separation from being liable for the departure of Alfredsson.

Second point: Proof is how much we spend. If you do the same thing everyday of your life, thats what you do.

Once again, just words. Saying something doesn't actually make it true. I've already pointed out that the cap is tied to league-wide revenue. Yet you somehow still believe that the Ottawa Senators have been earning and spending the same amount of money since Melnyk became owner. WHERE IS THE ****ING PROOF??????

Third point: Dont talk about stuff you dont know anything about. You mocked my comment about 14.5 million in income by claiming it was the EBIT figure, which it was. But how much cash flow is actually lost from that figure? just interest and taxes, which still leaves something for investing into the team. If your going to dissagree with me just know what your talking about first thats all.

How much cash flow is actually lost from that figure? Go ahead and tell me. Oh right. You don't actually ****ing know do you?

Fourth point: Again your not really knowledgeable about what your talking about. It's not like GAAP allows you to turn anything and everything into a loss. You have certain guidelines that you are allowed to operate in and maximize your tax planning efforts. Despite a corporations best efforts a company may still need to file a profitable financial statement for a variety of reasons: cannot exploit the ITA any further and have already maximized their tax planning efforts, financing requests...etc... Every business in the world will show the least amount of profit as possible, after everything their accountants have done, which is all legal, they still reported a profit of 14.5 million dollars. If he had it his way he would report it as a loss but he can only operate within specified rules and regulations and maximize those opportunities.

Which makes my point all the more valid while rendering yours wishy-washy. You genuinely believe that no matter what the team reports with regard to their finances that Melnyk is taking a massive cut of profits and keeping the money away from his own investment. Like do you understand how stupid that sounds? Let me fill you in. If you have a team that wins a Stanley Cup you make so much more money than a team that wins one round in the playoffs. If his ultimate goal is to make as much money as possible every year off of the team wouldn't it be prudent for him to spend as much as he can so he can win the Stanley Cup and enjoy all the financial pluses that come with it? Oh right, we tried that a lot of years in a row and it didn't work. So now we're trying a new strategy where we build the team through drafting and player development (by the way, probably the best team in the league in both aspects) and trying to win the Cup by developing a home-grown champion. You think the Penguins won the Cup because they spent the most money? Or because they drafted and developed guys like Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Letang, etc.? You think Chicago won the Cup because they spent the most money or because they drafted and developed guys like Keith, Kane, Toews, Seabrook, Byfuglien, Bolland, Ladd, etc.? Every cup winner has a base of stars who are homegrown, not bought.

Fifth point: I have my opinion you have yours.

Well, it sucked. And it's ridiculous to call someone a Melnyk fan because it doesn't even actually mean anything.

Sixth point: If you want to show me something, show me the cup winners since the last lockout (2004-2005) and how much the spent with relation to the cap. The cap forces teams to make choices on your core and the depth you surround them with. The higher quality of depth a team has the better they perform. Teams that spend to the cap typically have good depth. I would love love love to see the cup winners and how much they spent compared to the cap in that respective year. I bet most would be spending right to the top.

No, actually if I'm going to show you something I'm going to show you all the teams that spent close to the cap. Not just cherry pick the winners and say look how spending money gets you a championship.

I'll start most recently:

2012-13 (top 10 spending teams, in millions)

1. Flyers $72.5
2. Canucks $70.5
3. Wild $70.1
4. Rangers $68.7
5. Blackhawks $67.3
6. Canadiens $66.8
7. Penguins $66.7
8. Sharks $66.3
9. Bruins $64.5
10. Lightning $64
11. Capitals $64

It doesn't take a mathematician to show that for every team that makes the Finals spending near the cap, that there's 5 or more teams who don't.

Look at the Flyers and Lightning. Didn't even make the playoffs. The Flyers spent the most money on their team last year and they finished 10th in the conference. The Blackhawks won the Cup and there were 4 teams who spent more. The Bruins made the Finals and there were 8 teams who spent more. Ottawa was one of the 8 best teams last year by virtue of making it to the conference semi-finals and they had the 25th highest payroll.

2011-12

1. Flyers $66.9
2. Capitals $66.3
3. Canucks $65
4. Sabres $65.3
5. Flames $64.2
6. Penguins $64.2
7. Kings $63.7
8. Bruins $62.1
9. Leafs $63.5
10. Rangers $62
11. Canadiens $62

Wow, what a surprise, the team that spent the most didn't win the Cup. Kings (7th) win the Cup with the Devils (12th) finishing as runners-up.

Buffalo, Calgary, Montreal and Toronto all miss the playoffs. Montreal finishes last in the conference. Ottawa (26th) makes the playoffs and goes to 7 games with the number 1 seed in the conference. Traditional powerhouses like Chicago and Detroit aren't even in the top half of spending.

2010-11

1. Devils $63.9
2. Canucks $62.9
3. Flames $62.8
4. Penguins $61.7
5. Canadiens $61.2
6. Capitals $60.3
7. Bruins $60.2
8. Sharks $59.3
9. Blackhawks $55.2
10. Red Wings $59.5
11. Flyers $59.6

Devils finish bottom 10 in the NHL. Canucks (2) and Bruins (7) make it to the Finals with the Bruins winning. Flames miss the playoffs. Ottawa (14) one of the five worst teams in the NHL that year. Lightning (23) make ECF.

2009-10

1. Flyers $60.4
2. Canucks $59
3. Wings $58.8
4. Sharks $57
5. Penguins $56.7
6. Senators $56.4
7. Rangers $56.4
8. Canadiens $56.4
9. Flames $56.4
10. Oilers $57.7
11. Leafs $56.9

Blackhawks (13) beat Flyers (1) in the Finals. Rangers, Flames, Oilers, Leafs all miss the playoffs. Edmonton, one of the worst teams in NHL history. Toronto last in the EC. Senators out in the first round.

Do I really need to keep going? As it turns out, you were wrong. Much as I had predicted. The fact is, spending at or near the cap has mixed results. There's no guarantee that spending correlates with winning. There isn't even a guarantee that spending means your team will make the playoffs. The best part is, I didn't even do this upcoming year. I posted no less than 10 teams earlier in this thread spending anywhere from a little to a lot more than the Sens this coming year and I would take the Sens roster over every single one of them. So what does that mean?

I have stated all along that I dont like Melnyk because of his recent greedy choices, I've never hid it. I just dont understand how someone can stick up for him for taking money out of the team and not letting us have a competetive chance at winning? That is a selfish decision by him and as fans its unacceptable. The only person who should be happy about this is Melnyk

Well, you're wrong. As you can clearly see from what's written above.

 

[Slow Hands]

Well, he's due to talk tomorrow at 11 am at the Royal Ottawa Mental Centre. So I'll guess we'll see what happens then.