Post-Game Talk: All aboard the Jurco hype train

MessierII

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Jason Blake made a career of scoring goals with no shot at all. I remember when the Leafs signed him after his 40 goal season with the Isles and it was almost embarrassing to watch him shoot. Guy still managed to score though.
So did Smyth really but those guys were willing to muck it up in front of the net like crazy. If you can’t shoot you have to do that. Haven’t seen that from Benson yet.
 

Drivesaitl

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Jason Blake made a career of scoring goals with no shot at all. I remember when the Leafs signed him after his 40 goal season with the Isles and it was almost embarrassing to watch him shoot. Guy still managed to score though.

Wasn't Blake one of those players that was greasy around the net all the time? I mean if theres willingness to absorb mega punishment then guys like Smyth can score a lot of goals. Benson is not that type of player, and at least here, he's being very peripheral. Even when he has chances to get in on net he's sometimes passing that up.

Jurko, Russell, Marody are getting to the net a lot. A player like Blake needs 400 scoring chances to score a lot. The exceptional thing is the work level and abuse acceptance necessary to get that many chances.

Another swamp dog around the net was Matt Moulson. Nobody would ever confuse him with being a top skill player but his willingness to go to the areas and fight for every inch possible resulted in around 100 goals across 3 seasons where he was hot. Every game back then I noticed him working tirelessly.
 
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Perfect_Drug

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Wasn't Blake one of those players that was greasy around the net all the time? I mean if theres willingness to absorb mega punishment then guys like Smyth can score a lot of goals. Benson is not that type of player, and at least here, he's being very peripheral. Even when he has chances to get in on net he's sometimes passing that up.

Jurko, Russell, Marody are getting to the net a lot. A player like Blake needs 400 scoring chances to score a lot. The exceptional thing is the work level and abuse acceptance necessary to get that many chances.

Another swamp dog around the net was Matt Moulson. Nobody would ever confuse him with being a top skill player but his willingness to go to the areas and fight for every inch possible resulted in around 100 goals across 3 seasons where he was hot. Every game back then I noticed him working tirelessly.

Absolute beautiful players right there.

Gallagher is right there with them.
 
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Tobias Kahun

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He was at center ice turned at the same time Sutter hit center ice. Obviously Sutter has a step but he was right there the whole way. How about keep skating and get a poke or a stick lift? I’m not sure why that sounds so otherworldly. Even if you can’t get a stick in there if you just put any inkling of pressure on him your goalie has a good chance. It’s Sutter not Elias Pettersson. You don’t ever hook a guy like that. That’s not an excusable decision. You put pressure on him and limit what he can do on his break. You give him a penalty shot he can do whatever he wants. That’s a no brainer.
And then when Sutter scores there.

You will be in here complaining that Samorukov didn't hook him hard enough, can't make those mistakes in a 1 goal loss!
 

bucks_oil

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Wasn't Sutter on the left side of the net (i.e. Nurse's side?)

Yes... but if you watch the replay, off the face off you'll see Larson leaving two men in front and then rushing out into no-man's land. Nurse slides in and ties up the near (right) side guy who (arguably) was the most immediate threat... leaving the back post exposed. Nurse gets exposed compensating, but Larsson is doing... not sure.
 

CupofOil

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Nowhere am I saying cut him tomorrow. Am I not allowed to point out a bad decision by a player? I thought that pair struggled in their own zone all night and I thought that was one isolated incident that Sammy could have played better that ended up with the worst possible result. I’m not saying he can’t learn from it I’m just disputing the idea that somehow he gets completely absolved of that because he’s young and it’s pre season.

So why do you get to call him out for one bad play (which wasn't even his fault primarily) yet in the same token say that Larsson and Nurse were "great" yet give them a pardon for the several mistakes they made including on the game winning goal.

I'm sorry but if you think that Samorukov and Bouchard struggled in their own end "all night", that's just flat out wrong. They had a few struggles but by and large they were pushing the pace in a positive direction most of the night.
 

Hopelesslucicfan

Larsson fanclub 2016
Mar 14, 2009
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Well, anybody does reasonably well with McD, Drai. That's a plum position. But is 0-0-0 boxcars over 4 games earning such a position? no.

From what I'm seeing so far across multiple games is Benson is telegraphing passes, giving notice of the plays he's making, and giving defenders and goalies time to move to shooter. He really needs to work on that aspect. Feign something, fake something, or hide the play a bit more.

Something else I'm noticing is Benson doesn't hold puck when the pass lane closes down. He's still making the pass he expected to make. Look for it.

Another is that as much as the people that he's playing with are being blamed for not finishing Benson himself has had around 3-4 scoring chances where he's been late reacting to the puck or the puck bounces over his stick or that he's not even prepared for a shot. He doesn't score a lot of goals, ever, he doesn't seem to have the type of quick mitts that are suitable around the net (see Jurko goal) and McD and Drai are the two best passers on the team.

Can people see where a top line including Benson might pass the puck to death? The players that work best with those two, jmo, can score some goals. The last thing either needs really is a predominate passer. They need someone getting dirty, getting in corners, and that can play big boy hockey. Guys like Maroon, Kass, have worked out well.

I'm not saying we should force him into a top 6 role, but based on his last season, I think he earned a shot in a pre season game at least. Whether or not his game translates to the NHL is yet to be seen, but he's one of our few prospects with offensive potential, lets give him a shot to see what he has to work on to make our top 6.
 

MessierII

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So why do you get to call him out for one bad play (which wasn't even his fault primarily) yet in the same token say that Larsson and Nurse were "great" yet give them a pardon for the several mistakes they made including on the game winning goal.
Because they effectively created a plethora of offensive opportunities.
I'm sorry but if you think that Samorukov and Bouchard struggled in their own end "all night", that's just flat out wrong. They had a few struggles but by and large they were pushing the pace in a positive direction most of the night.
Everyone was pushing the pace in a positive direction. Nurse alone created more scoring chances than anyone in the game. Bear and Manning were on for both of our goals and none against. I also give a ton more leeway to vets in pre season than I do to young players looking to make an impression.
 
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CupofOil

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Because they effectively created a plethora of offensive opportunities.

Everyone was pushing the pace in a positive direction. Nurse alone created more scoring chances than anyone in the game. Bear and Manning were on for both of our goals and none against. I also give a ton more leeway to vets in pre season than I do to young players looking to make an impression.

And there's the bias. With all due respect, the bias is showing here favoring the vets over the youngsters.
For instance, saying that Nurse-Larsson created a plethora of offensive opportunities so the defensive mistakes can be forgiven when in reality, Samorukov and Bouchard also created a plethora of offensive opportunities yet they were "terrible" while Nurse-Larsson were "great".

In fairness, I think some bias exists around here favoring the prospects over the vets if all else is equal so everybody is guilty and it's why we see such divisive opinions.
 

MessierII

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Samorukov and Bouchard also created a plethora of offensive opportunities.
No they didn’t though. Bouchard struggled to get shots through. They had a couple point shots tipped that came close that’s it. Samurokov also passed on the cleanest look anyone had all night. Another display of bad awareness by him this time in the o zone.

NHL coaches give leeway to vets in pre season also. That’s not my bias that’s reality. Bias is pretending this pairing had this great night when there was rookie mistakes in every zone that cost the team.
 

CupofOil

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No they didn’t though. Bouchard struggled to get shots through. They had a couple point shots tipped that came close that’s it. Samurokov also passed on the cleanest look anyone had all night. Another display of bad awareness by him this time in the o zone.

NHL coaches give leeway to vets in pre season also. That’s not my bias that’s reality. Bias is pretending this pairing had this great night when there was rookie mistakes in every zone that cost the team.

Seriously?
Are you going to ignore that they hit a post directed off of a Samorukov shot after the 1st unit PP failed, they hit another post with those two QBing the point with the goalie pulled and Bouchard setting up McLeod for a wide open opportunity? Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

If you're going to talk about flubs, are you going to ignore all the indecisiveness of Larsson with the puck when they had the Canucks hemmed in, Nurse flubbing two opportunities in the slot and him trying to skate through 3 defenders in the last minute subsequently losing the puck and leading to the empty netter?

BTW, Tippett said that Samorukov was good so is he pretending?
Yeah they made a few mistakes but you saying that they were terrible while Nurse-Larsson was great speaks to extreme bias when in reality, both pairings had a few mistakes but also made a lot of good plays.
 

Drivesaitl

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Because they effectively created a plethora of offensive opportunities.

Everyone was pushing the pace in a positive direction. Nurse alone created more scoring chances than anyone in the game. Bear and Manning were on for both of our goals and none against. I also give a ton more leeway to vets in pre season than I do to young players looking to make an impression.

This is interesting. I realize many would look at it the opposite way, but I see it as more realistic as vets have earned their spot and have to be beaten out of positions if they ever lose them. The boards, being hf (i.e. prospects driven) has such a heavy bias on prospects that I think its balanced counter comment to attend to the bolded.

The reality is rooks have to beat out incumbents. This reality rarely seems on display here.

Just yesterday somebody was saying that Gagner was setting the lowbar for all of Jurko, Benson, and Nygard to improve on. With it assumed they would be improvements. Jurko is showing something, that's it so far.

Another strong bias is "sick of this player" related. Thus why a player like Gagner gets so much scorn here, seemingly because of reminding posters of really bad times. Eberle faced the same here. I mean theres a lot of people here that even liked the Eberle for Strome and Strome for Spooner trades because its just new livebodies coming in that people don't have established bias about. Pervasive grass is greener sentiment always evident here.
 

Tobias Kahun

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This is interesting. I realize many would look at it the opposite way, but I see it as more realistic as vets have earned their spot and have to be beaten out of positions if they ever lose them. The boards, being hf (i.e. prospects driven) has such a heavy bias on prospects that I think its balanced counter comment to attend to the bolded.

The reality is rooks have to beat out incumbents. This reality rarely seems on display here.

Just yesterday somebody was saying that Gagner was setting the lowbar for all of Jurko, Benson, and Nygard to improve on. With it assumed they would be improvements. Jurko is showing something, that's it so far.

Another strong bias is "sick of this player" related. Thus why a player like Gagner gets so much scorn here, seemingly because of reminding posters of really bad times. Eberle faced the same here. I mean theres a lot of people here that even liked the Eberle for Strome and Strome for Spooner trades because its just new livebodies coming in that people don't have established bias about. Pervasive grass is greener sentiment always evident here.
Everyone has strong biases, you certainly have one about another center on our team.
 
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LaGu

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This is interesting. I realize many would look at it the opposite way, but I see it as more realistic as vets have earned their spot and have to be beaten out of positions if they ever lose them. The boards, being hf (i.e. prospects driven) has such a heavy bias on prospects that I think its balanced counter comment to attend to the bolded.

The reality is rooks have to beat out incumbents. This reality rarely seems on display here.

Just yesterday somebody was saying that Gagner was setting the lowbar for all of Jurko, Benson, and Nygard to improve on. With it assumed they would be improvements. Jurko is showing something, that's it so far.

Another strong bias is "sick of this player" related. Thus why a player like Gagner gets so much scorn here, seemingly because of reminding posters of really bad times. Eberle faced the same here. I mean theres a lot of people here that even liked the Eberle for Strome and Strome for Spooner trades because its just new livebodies coming in that people don't have established bias about. Pervasive grass is greener sentiment always evident here.
Agree, I think this is obvious to most, but we've just missed hockey too much to be reasonable at this point!

The only vet who I think really started strong was Klefbom (edit: prob Nuge/Neal as well) but that makes sense because he's paired with a rookie and by all accounts he feels responsible to help out Persson.

The rest are playing practice, Nurse, Larsson, Gagner. There is competition but these guys are not fighting for a place (even though I guess they could lose it), they are getting into game shape and, more importantly, they are not preparing for getting a place on the starting lineup. They are preparing to play at least 82 games with the Oilers. There is a significant difference.
 

Drivesaitl

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Everyone has strong biases, you certainly have one about another center on our team.

you keep banging this drum and yet every comment I'm making about Nuge is positive. I have all kinds of time for the RNH on display the last couple years, and have made several extremely positive comments about him, about his statements, maturity, play, contributions etc.

I wasn't as impressed with his play when he was having 40something point seasons and being far less than he could be. We're now getting prime RNH and that's a blessing.

But yes, bias exists as part of the human condition. People challenge me on bias every day and I willingly discuss. In fairness to me others should be 50% as amenable to discussion of their biases.

Wheres nabob?
 

Drivesaitl

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So from what I gather almost everyone was terrible and awesome at the same time.

Any 60minute sample of the fastest most complex team game on earth affords this any time out...

Hockey, more than any sport, overwhelms general ability to define and assess it. Best or worst thing we could do is "key" on players and try to track what the actions of finite amount of players are in a game. All within our own script filters, cognitive bias, and generally inadequate human processing and perception.

I've just null and voided almost everything that gets stated here..;)
 

Frank the Tank

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I see Benson being on a career path like Teravainen (considering maximum potential). It takes him 200+ games as a support player to reach a peak of a ~20 goal, 70 point player in a supporting top-6 role.
 

MessierII

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Seriously?
Are you going to ignore that they hit a post directed off of a Samorukov shot after the 1st unit PP failed, they hit another post with those two QBing the point with the goalie pulled and Bouchard setting up McLeod for a wide open opportunity? Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

If you're going to talk about flubs, are you going to ignore all the indecisiveness of Larsson with the puck when they had the Canucks hemmed in, Nurse flubbing two opportunities in the slot and him trying to skate through 3 defenders in the last minute subsequently losing the puck and leading to the empty netter?

BTW, Tippett said that Samorukov was good so is he pretending?
Yeah they made a few mistakes but you saying that they were terrible while Nurse-Larsson was great speaks to extreme bias when in reality, both pairings had a few mistakes but also made a lot of good plays.
I mean overall the team played really good so maybe terrible is a strong world. I have no problem with that. Colour me unimpressed and to me they were hands down the weakest pairing out there.
 

MessierII

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Evan Bouchard actually looked good on that PP, but no one was getting him the puck quickly.
I don’t think he did anything to stand out. Walked the line a bit, shot it into some shin-pads and sticks. Nobody was moving the puck well or creating good looks.
 

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