Alive and kicking STILL.. OIE!!

[Da Game]

You don't have a clue my friend. You are aware that all players who are over in Europe, save few in the RSL, are playing for expenses? All players are self insured, and are forced to insure the amount to cover their NHL contracts. That eats up pretty well all of what they are being paid. The players are making their "money" off of the per diem they get in Europe, which is a faction of what they get in per diem in North America. The players are not making money. Most of them would make more money off of the interest from their contracts. There is a reason why the majority of the big names are sitting at home working on their golf games. There is no money to be made in other leagues. I sure hope you go to court a little more prepared than you have walking into this forum. You've been crushed in each thread you've wandered into.

I won't even get into a flaming word with you, cause at the end of the day, I want the same thing as you. And that's to see the NHL up and running again. But I understand that those who can't debate, resort to personal flames to make their case more appealing to the public. So be it.

Anyway, the players playing over in Europe are still making a good living (tax free). And like I said before. The union members rather play in Europe, and play for less money, then to be smacked by the NHL with a Hard Cap.

Now, you can proceed with your flaming.

 

[Da Game]

Bull. Total fabricated bull. Show me a link that states the average salary in Europe is $300K, tax free. No league in Europe, even the RSL has that type of money floating around. One team in Europe is paying big dollars, and that money is spent.

You kill me. Do have any idea of the size of the buildings in Europe? Do you have any idea of the value of tickets? Do you have any idea how badly the fans would revolt to the suggestion you're putting forward? Wasn't the "NHL Stars Tour" more than enough to show you that the fans don't care? How many more NHL players have to be cut or quit on their own accord before you understand that Europe is not an answer?

For example, Do you even know who some of the Owners are over in the RSL? Most of the Owners in the RSL have money growing out of trees. Most of them are in the Oil industry. One of the owners said that he's losing a ton of money, but he doesn't care at all cause he wants to win a championship for his city.

The players that have left Europe, left cause they weren't bottled, like they are in the NHL.

(Again, you might have missed it, but I am not siding with either side)

 

[Munchausen]

Is 300,000 dollars tax free not good? Thats like the average over there in Europe.

I want to know where you got that figure from. It's not what we've been hearing. And Europe isn't a big unified region you know. You don't make the same money in the RSL than you would in the SEL, FEL, etc.

You don't seem also to factor in the fact that the players are paying for their own insurances. They'll be lucky after that if they come out even.

There's also the fact the NA guys, from what they've been saying off mic, aren't all thrilled about playing there. The adaptation is difficult and it is not a joy ride for everybody that's for sure.

The players are not winning money, they're holding on for dear life. All they do is lose the money they would be making currently in the NHL,which they will never get back.

All the owners have to do is sit back and watch the union fall papart as the months go by.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

Lame and unnecessary.

He's a lawyer, he can take it.

 

[Da Game]

LMAO, you don't know what you're talking about. The average is ~ $150K and after you have played 6 months or more, the tax is 50%.

When you're that clueless you're better off shutting up, otherwise you just embarass yourself.

Ok, provide a link. But not one from Eklund's blogger, and I'll shut up.

(BTW, god lord we have a ton of por-owners on here, but it's ok. I'm game.)

 

[Da Game]

I want to know where you got that figure from. It's not what we've been hearing. And Europe isn't a big unified region you know. You don't make the same though in the RSL than you would in the SEL, FEL, etc.

You don't seem also to factor in the fact that the players are paying for their own insurances. They'll be lucky after that if they come out even.

There's also the fact the NA guys, from what they've been saying off mic, aren't all thrilled about playing there. The adaptation is difficult and it is not a joy ride for everybody that's for sure.

The players are not winning money, they're holding on for dear life. All they do is lose the money they would be making currently in the NHL,which they will never get back.

All the owners have to do is sit back and watch the union fall papart as the months go by.

Look, the NHL is not going to break the NHLPA. If they could, the NHL wouldn't have tried to meet with the union in the past few days.

The NHL knows they don't have a good shot at winning an impasse from the NLRB.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

For example, Do you even know who some of the Owners are over in the RSL? Most of the Owners in the RSL have money growing out of trees. Most of them are in the Oil industry. One of the owners said that he's losing a ton of money, but he doesn't care at all cause he wants to win a championship for his city.

The players that have left Europe, left cause they weren't bottled, like they are in the NHL.

(Again, you might have missed it, but I am not siding with either side)

No, ONE of the owners in the RSL has money growing on trees, and he is spending his personal fortune to improve his hockey club, which is not working. Don't think for a moment that the actions of one owner speaks for the entire league, nor an entire continent. One guy who is willing to dip into his pocket and over-pay his players does not mean everyone else will. Its like using the Rangers as example of how great things are in North America. Its completely wrong.

It is obvious which side of the argument you are on, so please quite trying to play the neutrality card. Its not honest.

BTW... What the hell does "bottled" mean?

 

[buce]

Is 300,000 dollars tax free not good? Thats like the average over there in Europe.

And as much as the Owners have the fans support here, the NHL players have even more support in Europe. Just recently, I was watching a show where some of the top OIL Company owners in Russia are ready to make a real hard effort to bring more and more NHL players to their country, and making a similar type of league to the NHL.

I'm more scared to see that happen.

The owner of the oil company first of all is in jail. There is only one team in the Russian league that is paying out that cash. While I would love $150-300,000 a year, this is a pittance for someone used to making 3 mil/year. Yes it's tax free and sometimes they throw in rent. BUT, the you are forgetting about the big cost...insurance. Insurance can run from $50,000 to $200,000 a year. Hell the USC quarterback pays 50,000 insurance to protect his future earnings. A NHL player in this prime of his career, will be paying much more. Going to europe is not a viable option for players trying to recoup their normal salaries. Let's also discuss the human nature aspect. When you make a couple million a year, you live like you make a couple of million a year. No they won't be starving or kicked out of their house, it does strain them. A lot of these guys have a couple of homes, summer cottages, expensive cars etc. It adds up. These players deserve to go down in flames for being so damn delusional.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

Ok, provide a link. But not one from Eklund's blogger, and I'll shut up.

(BTW, god lord we have a ton of por-owners on here, but it's ok. I'm game.)

Hmmmm, I asked you to do the same thing. Where is your link to support the salary levels you suggest? Well here's one that will knock you down a bit.

http://www.eurohockey.net/playingineurope/pay.html

It doesn't mention NHL talent, but that the difference cannot be a factor of 10. The economics of the European game don't support it.

 

[Da Game]

No, ONE of the owners in the RSL has money growing on trees, and he is spending his personal fortune to improve his hockey club, which is not working. Don't think for a moment that the actions of one owner speaks for the entire league, nor an entire continent. One guy who is willing to dip into his pocket and over-pay his players does not mean everyone else will. Its like using the Rangers as example of how great things are in North America. Its completely wrong.

It is obvious which side of the argument you are on, so please quite trying to play the neutrality card. Its not honest.

BTW... What the hell does "bottled" mean?

I wish I knew the companies name, but there are at least 4. One in which, is government owned. I'm sure some of the Russian posters on here can provide the names of the companies.

And again, your entitled to your opinion. You can say that I'm pro-player, but it just isn't fact. I actually would like to see a Cap similar to the one in the NBA. And the last time I checked, the NHLPA doesn't want a Cap.

BTW, bottled, meaning being treated like a little child.

 

[Da Game]

Hmmmm, I asked you to do the same thing. Where is your link to support the salary levels you suggest? Well here's one that will knock you down a bit.

http://www.eurohockey.net/playingineurope/pay.html

It doesn't mention NHL talent, but that the difference cannot be a factor of 10. The economics of the European game don't support it.

At least if your going to give me a link, give me a link to an official site, and not a fan type site, where one is just giving his opinion on what he thinks the pay range is.

And about my thing about the RSL. As soon as I found a link to the television show that I saw, that provide all the numbers, I'll give it to you.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

I wish I knew the companies name, but there are at least 4. One in which, is government owned. I'm sure some of the Russian posters on here can provide the names of the companies.

And again, your entitled to your opinion. You can say that I'm pro-player, but it just isn't fact. I actually would like to see a Cap similar to the one in the NBA. And the last time I checked, the NHLPA doesn't want a Cap.

BTW, bottled, meaning being treated like a little child.

The term is coddled.

And if you wish to make a claim that there are four oil companies in Russia that are spending oodles of money on hockey talent, please back it up. If you can't back it up, please don't make the claim. A lawyer should know better.

 

[Da Game]

The term is coddled.

And if you wish to make a claim that there are four oil companies in Russia that are spending oodles of money on hockey talent, please back it up. If you can't back it up, please don't make the claim. A lawyer should know better.

You use coddled, I'll used bottled. Same as Center vs. Centre.

And about the other thing you posted in here. Like I've said in the other post. I said it on a TV SHOW, and it had most of the owners on it, and some were talking about their oil companies.

And as I said before Judge Ito, If I can find the links to that show, I'll be more than happy to provide you with them.

 

[rwilson99]

I agree. But with the NHLPA. This is about pride more than money. To me, it seems that the NHLPA rather go play in Europe, to prove that they can't be broken.

I would rate this union second, only to the MLBPA.

Whoo Hoo. I'm sure when these guys sit around talking to their grand kids they'll always remember the good old days of being in the union that helped destroy pro hockey in North America.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

You use coddled, I'll used bottled. Same as Center vs. Centre.

And about the other thing you posted in here. Like I've said in the other post. I said it on a TV SHOW, and it had most of the owners on it, and some were talking about their oil companies.

And as I said before Judge Ito, If I can find the links to that show, I'll be more than happy to provide you with them.

Wow, you really are a BS artist. You've stood before Judge Ito? A New York attorney standing in front of a California judge? How did that happen? You're licensed to practice law in both States? I'm sorry, but I know of no lawyer that has as poor command over the english language as yourself, so I don't believe you are any more of a lawyer than Eklund is a hockey insider.

And as judge Ito would have told you had you tried that line of garbage in his court, your evidence is inadmissible with out cooberating evidence. I'm sorry counselor, but your opinion doesn't cut it trial. The jury needs to see facts or hear opinions of experts. You are far from an expert in this matter.

Here's a fluff piece that covers the best players in the NHL in Europe and what they are making. It even covers the two big spenders in the RSL. Sadly for you it supports the fact that the players are making about one tenth of what they do in the NHL.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/wings/0412/17/e10-35814.htm

 

[Da Game]

Whoo Hoo. I'm sure when these guys sit around talking to their grand kids they'll always remember the good old days of being in the union that helped destroy pro hockey in North America.

I think the players do care.

The problem is that both sides have two leaders who are both hated by the other side.

Gary Bettman doesn't have a clue about our sport. He's just a "lawyer" who made a name for himself under David Stern, and the man behind getting the NBA it's current Salary Cap. And also, the players hate his guts, and have no respect for the man.

And Bob is cut from the MLBPA, and the Owners hate his guts, and this time around, what to break him.

Now, IMO, if let's say Trevor Linden was the main guy of the Union & Bobby Orr or any other HOCKEY person were the Commish, then we the fans wouldn't be in this in this forum talking about this.

 

[GKJ]

Now, IMO, if let's say Trevor Linden was the main guy of the Union & Bobby Orr or any other HOCKEY person were the Commish, then we the fans wouldn't be in this in this forum talking about this.

Hockey is hockey and business is business. I'm not so sure a former player would be right for the job of being commish, but I would like to see someone from the hockey business in there.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

You use coddled, I'll used bottled. Same as Center vs. Centre.

I was going to let that slide, but on second thought, no.

Coddled:

Pronunciation: 'kä-d&l
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): cod·dled; cod·dling /'käd-li[ng], 'kä-d&l-i[ng]/
Etymology: perhaps from caudle
1 : to cook (as eggs) in liquid slowly and gently just below the boiling point
2 : to treat with extreme care : PAMPER


Bottled:

Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): bot·tled; bot·tling /'bä-t&l-i[ng], 'bät-li[ng]/
1 : to confine as if in a bottle : RESTRAIN -- usually used with up <bottling up their anger>
2 : to put into a bottle


There is no connection between the two at all. There is no potential confusion for someone who has a command over the enlish language, especially someone who is supposed to be a lawyer and makes his living twisting words. I think you are as credible as Eklund, and I think he's a 15 year old kid playing around. A lawyer brings much better arguments and can substantiate his case with evidence and much more eloquence than you have attempted to do. I think its time to come clean.

 

[Da Game]

Wow, you really are a BS artist. You've stood before Judge Ito? A New York attorney standing in front of a California judge? How did that happen? You're licensed to practice law in both States? I'm sorry, but I know of no lawyer that has as poor command over the english language as yourself, so I don't believe you are any more of a lawyer than Eklund is a hockey insider.

And as judge Ito would have told you had you tried that line of garbage in his court, your evidence is inadmissible with out cooberating evidence. I'm sorry counselor, but your opinion doesn't cut it trial. The jury needs to see facts or hear opinions of experts. You are far from an expert in this matter.

Here's a fluff piece that covers the best players in the NHL in Europe and what they are making. It even covers the two big spenders in the RSL. Sadly for you it supports the fact that the players are making about one tenth of what they do in the NHL.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/wings/0412/17/e10-35814.htm

LOL. I'm not even going to battle with you. I called you Judge Ito as a JOKE, and you took it way beyond the context of this conversation. :lol

Also, what's with the English remarks? I'm just posting. I don't get paid for this. No need for me to use BIG WORDING in presenting my opinion to you, and others.

I'm sure your understand me perfectly fine just using REGULAR WORDING in my posts to you, my friend.

 

[Joeri Loonen]

I feel the need to jump in here.

Few remarks to add to the discussion in which I'm not going to put myself into the heart of the matter.

First of all, the 50% luxury tax-issue is only applicable 1 -3 nations. There are NHL-players in over 10-nations now. So do not blow this out of proportion. Only a minority will 'suffer' from this, and even a percentage of those can get around it due to some loopholes and good legal advise.

Secondly. Salaries in Europe are not topped at 300k. In Russia for example, they reach the million-mark ($us) or even higher. And this doens't involve just a single team (as was being mentioned).

You can find an article about the salaries and financial situation in Russia from 2 years ago (things only got better financially since....) here

http://www.eurohockey.net/news/index.cgi?page=story.shtml?id=20030706132734thenewpromisedland

Thirdly. Can someone tell me where it is stated that all players pay their own insurance? Since I know different.

Furthermore, it was stated that many North-Americans do not fancy playing in Europe at all. Then I wonder, why are they coming over? According to the reports here, it's not for the money..and not for the game.. Then what is it? They can stay in shape at home as well, and it's not like they would die from starvation either. To me it sounds a bit contradicting. But perhaps I'm missing something here.

Finally, One thing that is totally not being put in perspective here, but IMO is necessary to make any valid comparison, is the difference in cost of living? Latest I experienced, things were a lot cheaper in Khabarabovsk than they were in Los Angeles. By just comparing plain numbers in the salaries you're not comparing the value of the money.

There are probably more matters to discuss and I go a bit off topic to the real core matter, but this should give some food thought and discussion.

Best regards,

Joeri Loonen
Admin: http://www.eurohockey.net

 

[Da Game]

I was going to let that slide, but on second thought, no.

Coddled:

Pronunciation: 'kä-d&l
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): cod·dled; cod·dling /'käd-li[ng], 'kä-d&l-i[ng]/
Etymology: perhaps from caudle
1 : to cook (as eggs) in liquid slowly and gently just below the boiling point
2 : to treat with extreme care : PAMPER


Bottled:

Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): bot·tled; bot·tling /'bä-t&l-i[ng], 'bät-li[ng]/
1 : to confine as if in a bottle : RESTRAIN -- usually used with up <bottling up their anger>
2 : to put into a bottle


There is no connection between the two at all. There is no potential confusion for someone who has a command over the enlish language, especially someone who is supposed to be a lawyer and makes his living twisting words. I think you are as credible as Eklund, and I think he's a 15 year old kid playing around. A lawyer brings much better arguments and can substantiate his case with evidence and much more eloquence than you have attempted to do. I think its time to come clean.

We say Bottling in "England". I'm quite SORRY if you use a different term or wording when presenting a post to your peers.

Also, this is NOT A CASE. This is a only a thread, where we are DISCUSSING a lockout. If this were an actual case, I would do my due justice to make you look silly.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

Hockey is hockey and business is business. I'm not so sure a former player would be right for the job of being commish, but I would like to see someone from the hockey business in there.

I agree. I think that a business person is best suited for the role of commsioner. Unless the commisioner becomes strictly a PR position I think that it is important to have someone in the position that can understand the business challenges that face the game rather than someone who was a great player in the league.

 

[Da Game]

I feel the need to jump in here.

Few remarks to add to the discussion in which I'm not going to put myself into the heart of the matter.

First of all, the 50% luxury tax-issue is only applicable 1 -3 nations. There are NHL-players in over 10-nations now. So do not blow this out of proportion. Only a minority will 'suffer' from this, and even a percentage of those can get around it due to some loopholes and good legal advise.

Secondly. Salaries in Europe are not topped at 300k. In Russia for example, they reach the million-mark ($us) or even higher. And this doens't involve just a single team (as was being mentioned).

You can find an article about the salaries and financial situation in Russia from 2 years ago (things only got better financially since....) here

http://www.eurohockey.net/news/index.cgi?page=story.shtml?id=20030706132734thenewpromisedland

Thirdly. Can someone tell me where it is stated that all players pay their own insurance? Since I know different.

Furthermore, it was stated that many North-Americans do not fancy playing in Europe at all. Then I wonder, why are they coming over? According to the reports here, it's not for the money..and not for the game.. Then what is it? They can stay in shape at home as well, and it's not like they would die from starvation either. To me it sounds a bit contradicting. But perhaps I'm missing something here.

Finally, One thing that is totally not being put in perspective here, but IMO is necessary to make any valid comparison, is the difference in cost of living? Latest I experienced, things were a lot cheaper in Khabarabovsk than they were in Los Angeles. By just comparing plain numbers in the salaries you're not comparing the value of the money.

There are probably more matters to discuss and I go a bit off topic to the real core matter, but this should give some food thought and discussion.

Best regards,

Joeri Loonen
Admin: http://www.eurohockey.net

That was very kind of you Joeri. More than I expected in terms of salary.

But I'm sure Icon will have something to add.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

We say Bottling in "England". I'm quite SORRY if you use a different term or wording when presenting a post to your peers.

Also, this is NOT A CASE. This is a only a thread, where we are DISCUSSING a lockout. If this were an actual case, I would do my due justice to make you look silly.

Ah, so now you're a New York lawyer from England who has be infront of Judge Ito in California. This is getting better and better.

Please, treat this as a case and do your "due justice" and make me look silly. Trust me pal, the only one here looking silly is you.

:lol

EDIT: Looked up "bottling" and "bottled" in several english slang dictionaries and that term doesn't exist.

http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/b.htm

 

[Da Game]

Hockey is hockey and business is business. I'm not so sure a former player would be right for the job of being commish, but I would like to see someone from the hockey business in there.

Well, we need someone who can improve the game, and not sit at a press conference, and tell us that 2-1 games with no flow are exciting.