Prospect Info: Alex Tuch (RW) - 18th Overall, 2014

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Dr Jan Itor

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Kovalchuk (19yo) scored 38g and Heatley (21yo) scored 41g in that same season (2002-2003) on a dramatically worse Thrashers team who went through 3 coaches that season.

They were very, very good players as well. I'm sure they benefited a bit from playing with each other though, more than Gaborik benefited from playing with Dupuis, Ronning, etc...

I just think you're underrating Gaborik a bit, and scoring 30+ goals 5 times on those Wild teams (especially the early ones) was a bigger accomplishment than you're giving it credit for.

That said, if Kaprizov comes close to that, we'll all be freaking ecstatic.
 

Minnesnota

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Kovalchuk and Heatley... yet they were dramatically worse than the Expansion Wild who had Gaborik and.... nobody?

As a team win/loss wise? sure... as a team offensive talent wise? Hell no!

PMB, Rolston, Koivu, Brunette, Demitra - but Gaborik had absolutely no help whatsoever.

Gaborik only ever led the Wild in points in 2* season. If he didn't get injured all the time, that's probably different. But, he did get injured all the time.

* Didn't add the season we're all talking about.
 

Dr Jan Itor

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PMB, Rolston, Koivu, Brunette, Demitra - but Gaborik had absolutely no help whatsoever.

Gaborik only ever led the Wild in points in 1 season. If he didn't get injured all the time, that's probably different. But, he did get injured all the time.

2 seasons. 02-03 and 07-08.

PMB, Koivu and Demitra weren't there for the year that you were referencing.

And by golly look what happened when he got a little bit of help: 38 goals in 65 games, 30 goals in 48 games and 42 goals in 77 games. Some damn good numbers there.
 

Minnesnota

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Kovalchuk and Heatley... yet they were dramatically worse than the Expansion Wild who had Gaborik and.... nobody?

As a team win/loss wise? sure... as a team offensive talent wise? Hell no!

Hmmm... let's look at top 3 leading scorers for both teams...

Wild
Gaborik - 30g, 65pts
Dupuis - 20g, 48pts
Ronning - 17g, 48pts

Thrashers
Heatley - 41g, 89pts
Kozlov - 21g 70pts
Kovalchuk - 38g, 67pts

Yeah... the Wild playing Lemaire hockey with no offensive talent besides Gaborik were a better offensive team... :sarcasm:
Yes, if anything this proves my point.

Kovalchuk & Heatley were elite. Gaborik, not so much. That's why the scored more on a worse team.

2 seasons. 02-03 and 07-08.

PMB, Koivu and Demitra weren't there for the year that you were referencing.
What's his excuse for all the years they were there?
 

TaLoN

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PMB, Rolston, Koivu, Brunette, Demitra - but Gaborik had absolutely no help whatsoever.

Gaborik only ever led the Wild in points in 1 season. If he didn't get injured all the time, that's probably different. But, he did get injured all the time.

Most of those weren't in Minnesota yet in 2002-2003... the season YOU identified. Brunette had 18g, and 46pts in 2002-2003... are you saying he's Heatley or Kovalchuk that season? They had 89 and 67pts.... Gaborik had 65pts... he was on their level, the rest of the Wild roster wasn't even close.
 

TaLoN

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Yes, if anything this proves my point.

Kovalchuk & Heatley were elite. Gaborik, not so much. That's why the scored more on a worse team.


What's his excuse for all the years they were there?

The years they were here.... 207 games Gaborik played... he scored .594 goals per game in those games. The same seasons, Kovalchuk scored goals at the exat same rate for 318 games.

The ONLY difference is games played because Gaborik was dealing with injuries. But when he was on the ice, he was absolutely as elite a goal scorer as Kovalchuk.

Also - you keep saying they scored more on a worse team. Win/loss does not describe offensive talent. That describes more complete overall game.

Gaborik was being asked to back check... they couldn't back check to save their lives. Hence why the Wild only allowed 178 goals and the Thrashers allowed 286. The Wild scored 198 goals, the Thrashers scored 226.

The Wild had 1 lone elite level offensive player... Gaborik. The Thrashers had 2, and they fed off each other to improve each others games. Gaborik was THE lone focal point for the oppositions defense... EVERY GAME. Heatley had Kovalchuck and Kovalchuk had Heatley to relieve that same pressure.

They were very, very good players as well. I'm sure they benefited a bit from playing with each other though, more than Gaborik benefited from playing with Dupuis, Ronning, etc...

I just think you're underrating Gaborik a bit, and scoring 30+ goals 5 times on those Wild teams (especially the early ones) was a bigger accomplishment than you're giving it credit for.

That said, if Kaprizov comes close to that, we'll all be freaking ecstatic.
I think we'd all be over the top THRILLED!
 
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Minnesnota

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You are correct. Let's get back on topic.

So, Tuch! You guys see him making the team this year?

If we're able to move Pominville, yes. Otherwise I think they give him another full year down in Iowa to play alongside Kunin.
 

DANOZ28

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both tuch & kunin should get a handful of games with the big club this season. no point in rushing to fulltime. my guess is the following year both will make the big club.
 

Bazeek

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How the hell is he behind Kunin?

The only argument I could see is that if they're looking to call someone up for a few games to cover for an injury, Kunin might get the call first simply to assess how he looks in the NHL.

But in terms of full-time promotions to the NHL I agree that Tuch is further along. Going from a college schedule to a pro schedule is a heck of a jump.
 

Wabit

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How the hell is he behind Kunin?

He's the shiny new toy...

I think Kunin/Tuch will be decided in Iowa next season. Nice to even be able to have a debate, not the Gabriel/Schroeder/Pokemon debate that was our choices last season...
 

Dr Jan Itor

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He's the shiny new toy...

I think Kunin/Tuch will be decided in Iowa next season. Nice to even be able to have a debate, not the Gabriel/Schroeder/Pokemon debate that was our choices last season...

Assuming that they haven't given up on Kunin as center, and they shouldn't, then any call up situation isn't going to be a decision between the two anyway.
 

Wabit

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Assuming that they haven't given up on Kunin as center, and they shouldn't, then any call up situation isn't going to be a decision between the two anyway.

I was talking about the callup situation. It also depends on the position being filled. If it's a bottom-6 role I think Kunin is a better option for that role, top-6 I think Tuch is the better option. Mentality/mindset/playstyle is what I'm going off of from last season.

I agree they shouldn't give up on Kunin as a center before he's even gotten his feet wet as a pro.
 

Fremitus Borealis

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Sorry for the OT post, but....... Regarding the arguments about Kaprizov vs. Gaborik........ after a while I just zone out and lament the fact that nowadays a guy scoring 25 goals for any team is worthy of a $5million+ contract, because that's pretty damned good today. At a certain point I kinda feel like NHL historical stats are gonna become nearly worthless when comparing players over time.

Anyway, you kids can get off my lawn now.
 

57special

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Sorry for the OT post, but....... Regarding the arguments about Kaprizov vs. Gaborik........ after a while I just zone out and lament the fact that nowadays a guy scoring 25 goals for any team is worthy of a $5million+ contract, because that's pretty damned good today. At a certain point I kinda feel like NHL historical stats are gonna become nearly worthless when comparing players over time.

Anyway, you kids can get off my lawn now.

Yeah, but if you can back far enough to the Original Six you will find that the stats are oddly similar to today's, when being a 20G scorer was an accomplishment, and scoring more than 35 was for elite snipers only.
 

Fremitus Borealis

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Yeah, but if you can back far enough to the Original Six you will find that the stats are oddly similar to today's, when being a 20G scorer was an accomplishment, and scoring more than 35 was for elite snipers only.

Yeah, back when you weren't allowed to pass the puck over a line, or like, up ice at all ;)
 

Digitalbooya

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He's the shiny new toy...

I think Kunin/Tuch will be decided in Iowa next season. Nice to even be able to have a debate, not the Gabriel/Schroeder/Pokemon debate that was our choices last season...
Kunin is not a new shiny toy to me. I've watched him play consistently. I think he just goes harder than Tuch and he is more defensively sound. To me it looks like Tuch has a good shot but his effort fluctuates. He's got the size and that's nice too.
Assuming that they haven't given up on Kunin as center, and they shouldn't, then any call up situation isn't going to be a decision between the two anyway.
I think Kunin's best bet to play on Minnesota is at right wing. He's not replacing any of Parise, Zucker, Nino ( or Granlund). Nor is he replacing Koivu, Staal, or Haula/Ek. Right wing has Coyle, Granlund, and Pominville. I think Kunin can displace Pominville on the third line.
I was talking about the callup situation. It also depends on the position being filled. If it's a bottom-6 role I think Kunin is a better option for that role, top-6 I think Tuch is the better option. Mentality/mindset/playstyle is what I'm going off of from last season.

I agree they shouldn't give up on Kunin as a center before he's even gotten his feet wet as a pro.
Completely disagree. Tuch with his size is better suited for a bottom 6 role. Kunin with his goal scoring mindset is better suited for the top 6.
 

TaLoN

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Yeah, back when you weren't allowed to pass the puck over a line, or like, up ice at all ;)

Hell... that was just before the first of the two recent lockouts as well though. Which makes the sheer number of breakaways Gaborik used to get all the more impressive! No two line passes allowed in those days...

Anyways... back to Kunin. I think he will for sure be tried at center first this coming season, and I'd be shocked if he was considered the first RW callup over Tuch and would also likely be the 2nd center call up too if Ek were to start the year in the AHL.

Hey may get an NHL cup of coffee at some point like Tuch this year, but I'd be surprised if he got more than that at this point. Let him adjust his game to the pros in the AHL for a year first. No need to rush him... he has room to grow down there yet.
 

Dr Jan Itor

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I think Kunin's best bet to play on Minnesota is at right wing. He's not replacing any of Parise, Zucker, Nino ( or Granlund). Nor is he replacing Koivu, Staal, or Haula/Ek. Right wing has Coyle, Granlund, and Pominville. I think Kunin can displace Pominville on the third line.

Depends on if you're thinking 2 years from now or later. 2 years, then yes, right wing is the best bet. But a center spot will open up a couple years after that, so if they're serious about developing him as a center, then I think it's best to take it slower.
 
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