Alex Nylander vs Tage Thompson

[Doug Prishpreed]

The measure isn't TT vs anyone. It's how well the team performs. It was sold as a culture thing. The measuring stick is wins/losses.

That’s the measuring stick for you, but not for most people.

Unless he wins a cup, he should be judged harshly for any missed opportunities to improve, or attempts to improve that ended up making the team worse than they’d otherwise be.

 

[sabremike]

Terrible meme. If Botterill wants to justify the trade the best way is for the team to win. The trade of RoR wasn't painted as one where the Sabres got the better player, it was to be a net improvement to the team's performance.

I'll leave the evaluation of that to others, in its designated thread.

If things were being done in a rational fashion then absolutely. Unfortunately this situation makes no sense. Why is a guy who it's painfully obvious is not nearly good enough at this point in his career to belong in this league being thrown out there on a nightly basis? Why is he not in the AHL where he can develope the skills to make himself an NHL player? I can't blame anyone who thinks this is Botts being stubborn.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Also, I don’t really like looking at statistics. If you watch the games, it’s plain as day quite frankly. But I’ll throw you some stats.

Corey Perry first full season- 12:28 ATOI 82-17-27-44
Blake Wheeler rookie year - 13:41 ATOI 81-21-24-45
Tage Thompson first full season - 12:42ATOI 41-6-4-10 (on pace for 12-8-20?Maybe??

Also Perry attempted 194 shots, and scored on 17 of them sooo...

Don’t get me wrong I think Thompson has Top 6 potential for sure but for that type of comparison when he’s done nothing ? When they aren’t even similar? Just because Thompson has had a couple nice little dekes that he hasn’t finished on?

Perry had 194 shots that season, he scored on 8.8% of them, this season Tage Thompson is shooting 8.0%. I don't think they kept shot attempt stats during Perry's first two years in the league.

NB: I don't think Tage Thompson is, or ever will be as good as Corey Perry; but the stats which were used to compare them qualitatively (missing the net high) didn't really hold up to quantitative examination.

 

[debaser66]

Anyways they should have given Nylander some time too and sent TT down.
He is still too inconsistent to be gifted a spot which is exactly what happened.
Not just at the start but through all his struggles.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

If things were being done in a rational fashion then absolutely. Unfortunately this situation makes no sense. Why is a guy who it's painfully obvious is not nearly good enough at this point in his career to belong in this league being thrown out there on a nightly basis? Why is he not in the AHL where he can develope the skills to make himself an NHL player? I can't blame anyone who thinks this is Botts being stubborn.

Tage Thompson is a marginal NHL player. He's currently very much in the realm of a bottom line forward, and wouldn't be out of place on too many teams in that role.

 

[Aladyyn]

Tage Thompson is a marginal NHL player. He's currently very much in the realm of a bottom line forward, and wouldn't be out of place on too many teams in that role.

He would be out of place because he's not an NHL player.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

That’s the measuring stick for you, but not for most people.

Unless he wins a cup, he should be judged harshly for any missed opportunities to improve, or attempts to improve that ended up making the team worse than they’d otherwise be.

Most people look at the RoR trade as an attempt to the improve the team through other than raw talent.

By your stated criterion he should be 'judged harshly' if he doesn't trade all his draft picks. Those picks could be used to improve the team.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

He would be out of place because he's not an NHL player.

I know you have your agenda you must relentlessly pursue, but many if not most teams have a player or two at his caliber.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Most people look at the RoR trade as an attempt to the improve the team through other than raw talent.

By your stated criterion he should be 'judged harshly' if he doesn't trade all his draft picks. Those picks could be used to improve the team.

I said nothing about raw talent, no idea what you’re talking about.

And no, by my criterion he wouldn’t be judged harshly if he doesn’t trade away the picks. That’s a ridiculous thing to take away from what I said — it’s trolling. Congrats, you got me to waste my time and respond.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

I said nothing about raw talent, no idea what you’re talking about.

And no, by my criterion he wouldn’t be judged harshly if he doesn’t trade away the picks. That’s a ridiculous thing to take away from what I said — it’s trolling. Congrats, you got me to waste my time and respond.

"missed opportunities to improve" how does that not include trading picks for players?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Alex Nylander has the higher ceiling. He just needs a chance to play top 9 mins. With 2nd PP time.

He may not be the most physical player, but one thing about him is he can see the ice well and he has a good stick. He is also a very underrated play maker. Smart with the puck. Doesn't over handle it.

He has a nice shot, I think it is more accurate than his brother's. But really I think his play making is what people are going to like about him.

All he needs is a chance and opportunity. Hopefully not buried on the 4th line. This would be a disaster if he is IMO.

 

[ZZamboni]

Alex Nylander has the higher ceiling. He just needs a chance to play top 9 mins. With 2nd PP time.

He may not be the most physical player, but one thing about him is he can see the ice well and he has a good stick. He is also a very underrated play maker. Smart with the puck. Doesn't over handle it.

He has a nice shot, I think it is more accurate than his brother's. But really I think his play making is what people are going to like about him.

All he needs is a chance and opportunity. Hopefully not buried on the 4th line. This would be a disaster if he is IMO.

If he plays consistently like he give a fig, and not take games off, doesn’t coast around like his controller is disconnected and avoid physical contact, he’ll get his opportunity to succeed in the NHL.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

If he plays consistently like he give a fig, and not take games off, doesn’t coast around like his controller is disconnected and avoid physical contact, he’ll get his opportunity to succeed in the NHL.

This is a legitimate concern. The Nylander name is not one that one would associate with playing hard on the puck, in the corners, and in high traffic areas. I honestly am trying to recall this in Mississauga and it was not a concern of mine. But that was the juniors, and Mcleod and Bastian did the grunt work. Yep, he is going to have to grow up and be more assertive. He trained this past summer, noted it has helped his game. We shall see.

 

[ZZamboni]

This is a legitimate concern. The Nylander name is not one that one would associate with playing hard on the puck, in the corners, and in high traffic areas. I honestly am trying to recall this in Mississauga and it was not a concern of mine. But that was the juniors, and Mcleod and Bastian did the grunt work. Yep, he is going to have to grow up and be more assertive. He trained this past summer, noted it has helped his game. We shall see.

Yea, I don’t think we need Nylander to be physical like a Girgensons or Larsson. But as physical as say a Okposo or Mitts would be a nice goal. But engaged every shift.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

"missed opportunities to improve" how does that not include trading picks for players?

Improving the overall organization. Not improving the team on the ice this moment.

I’m not being unreasonable, just asking to not take legendary losses in overall value in a trade. Botterill made a generationally bad trade, and he’s made good moves too. He still needs to fill the hole he created before he can come close to justifying the trade in any way.

 

[Sabre the Win]

Hockey IQ is what separates players and Nylander has that in spades.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Improving the overall organization. Not improving the team on the ice this moment.

I’m not being unreasonable, just asking to not take legendary losses in overall value in a trade. Botterill made a generationally bad trade, and he’s made good moves too. He still needs to fill the hole he created before he can come close to justifying the trade in any way.

The RoR trade is not generationally bad. A first a second and Thompson could create overall value. Just not value now. By your own preamble that’s a plausible metric.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The RoR trade is not generationally bad. A first a second and Thompson could create overall value. Just not value now. By your own preamble that’s a plausible metric.

I agree. You have to look at the big picture. Trading ROR frees up a lot of salary to potentially sign Skinner too. I think most would prefer Skinner to ROR. In the cap era, there is only a certain amount of these players you can sign. Best to sign the right player.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Hockey IQ is what separates players and Nylander has that in spades.

That that the thought when he was picked...the IQ + shot. I hope he has the will and work ethic to keep improving.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

The RoR trade is not generationally bad. A first a second and Thompson could create overall value. Just not value now. By your own preamble that’s a plausible metric.

Of course, any trade that involves a first is automatically a huge unknown for a long time as far as judging the overall trade. It’s a lottery ticket - you could always get the next Gretzky.

But we’ve all watched more than enough promising first rounders become nothing to make it clear that it’s much more likely to turn out like every lottery ticket I’ve ever bought - break-even at best.

 

[sabrebuild]

I agree. You have to look at the big picture. Trading ROR frees up a lot of salary to potentially sign Skinner too. I think most would prefer Skinner to ROR. In the cap era, there is only a certain amount of these players you can sign. Best to sign the right player.

If our management can’t do basic cap math to fit a 7.5 first line quality center and 8ish first line winger, then we better get a new gm.

This cap argument is one of the least compelling arguments for this stupid trade.

 

[sabrebuild]

The RoR trade is not generationally bad. A first a second and Thompson could create overall value. Just not value now. By your own preamble that’s a plausible metric.

Let’s trade Jack for a couple firsts and a couple b prospects.

Then we would have value.

 

[buffalowing88]

I like the idea of a top 9, where line 1, 2, and 3 are all scoring lines but in order of talent, skill and abilities. (Hecht-Briere-Pominville: line 1, X-Drury-Grier: line 2, Vanek-Roy-Afinogenov: line 3)

I think Nylander can play on a Vanek-Roy- type of line.

Girgensons and Larsson form an excellent 4th shutdown line that can be used in all situations with potentially more ice-time than the 3rd to shutdown opponents. With the talent that the Sabres have, (although young and inexperienced) I see no reason why we have to fall back to the "top 6 or bust" theory. Why not 3 scoring lines? Vegas mastered this and they went to the finals.


In 2019, there's no more Peters-Mair-Kaleta lines anymore. Just a thought.



*Also,
I think Nylander is the type of player that'll have better numbers in the NHL than much of his AHL stats because he’ll be playing with actual talent and not AHL scrubs who can’t hit the net. (I say that lovingly) I think Nylander is similar to his brother in that if you put him on a scoring line (hypothetical Vanek-Roy-Nylander situation) He can produce complementarily. I think in that situation and based on seeing him play I can imagine a 15-35 rookie season. 50 point pace in the NHL. For a 20 year old on a team devoid of NHL caliber wingers, I’ll take it. We need to see more games with Nylander. I don’t want to burn his ELC though and I don’t think he’s quite ready. I could be wrong, I haven’t seen him play in awhile but that’s why I’m not the GM! I’d like to see 9 games at some point, and if he fits, he stays. Smith has earned a spot before him though of right now.


**Regarding ceiling, I don't think there's really any way to know. Thompson has shown flashes of brilliance and is at least playing in the NHL. Nylander has more pure potential I'd say, but I'd need to see him on the same team as Thompson to really make a discernment. I'd say of now, I'd rather have Thompson in the NHL- but long-term, I can see Nylander edging him but it likely wouldn't be by a significantly different margin if they both reach their potential.

We also rolled that Kotalik-Connolly-Afinogenov combo for awhile that was magic in a bottle.

 

[joshjull]

Also, I don’t really like looking at statistics. If you watch the games, it’s plain as day quite frankly. But I’ll throw you some stats.

Corey Perry first full season- 12:28 ATOI 82-17-27-44
Blake Wheeler rookie year - 13:41 ATOI 81-21-24-45
Tage Thompson first full season - 12:42ATOI 41-6-4-10 (on pace for 12-8-20?Maybe??

Also Perry attempted 194 shots, and scored on 17 of them sooo...

Don’t get me wrong I think Thompson has Top 6 potential for sure but for that type of comparison when he’s done nothing ? When they aren’t even similar? Just because Thompson has had a couple nice little dekes that he hasn’t finished on?

Its worth noting that the seasons you reference are not the same as the one Tage is in.

Tage is in his D+3 year.

Perry was in his D+4 season. He started emerging as a star in his D+6 season.

Wheeler was in his D+5 season. The player we see now didn't emerge until his D+8 season when he became a Jet.

Thompson is young and has time to develop before we can realistically gauge what he will or wont be.

 

[OkimLom]

I agree. You have to look at the big picture. Trading ROR frees up a lot of salary to potentially sign Skinner too. I think most would prefer Skinner to ROR. In the cap era, there is only a certain amount of these players you can sign. Best to sign the right player.

The big picture could’ve included ROR AND Skinner in it. Even then you have two guys who can play in the top 6 and one who can play winger or centerman and has chemistry with Eichel and Reinhart. Though one can argue the trade wasn’t to make room for salary this offseason but for guys 2-3 years from now. But even then you could trade him down the road, not at a time when a guy like Mittelstadt needs time to develop. It’s a bad trade and I don’t believe for one second that ROR’s attitude in the ice makes a difference on our record, but I’m pretty damn sure his talent would have an impact on record in the standings, assuming Housley doesn’t run him into the ground. Bad trade all around, though the players may have some worth.