Alex Galchenyuk Thread 8.0 - "Time on Ice" Edition

[habsfanatics*]

So you think going back to the OHL for 25 games will help him 'dominate games on his own' once he reaches the NHL?

Seems kind of an odd conclusion to reach...

the OHL is the OHL...the NHL is the NHL

Dominating in one league, doesn't guarantee domination in the other (see Corey Locke, or a million other players who've dominated the CHL).

Very few NHL players 'dominate a game on their own' on a consistent basis, so if this is the expectation for Galchenyuk, then I think we need a reality check. Again, i'd like someone to explain what the benefit is for Galchenyuk to dominate the OHL?

Once more, he's been dominating that league since he's been 16yrs old...what will 3 more months do?

I think the better question is. What will 3more months hurt? There is no potential downside imo of sending a Jr player back to junior after missing an entire season of potential development. He still has holes that are better suited to be worked on in jr than learning on the job in Montreal.

His knee still needs to be tested completely, before putting him in a schedule that will see him play four games a week against stronger men.

 

[Montreal Impact FC]

Maybe his knee need more testing... maybe not, he personally insisted over and over he is fine 100% recovered... habs are convinced hence his 3th spot selection, now maybe his skating needs work... that is something that is mostly work during off season anyways.. its not like playing in montreal would give him a disadvantage on that regard.. au contraire. we dont want Gally regressing either like Huberdeau...even tough Huberdeau has done it all already.. so i know its not exactly the same situation. I am in for a 9 game trial.. (if they have such a thing this season.. if there is a season lol) then we will see. If he has clearly a spot on this team (any top 3 lines)... well so be it. If not finnish the year in the O. Then next year is the year. I dont think Bergy will think about losing a year but more of gaining a half a season of getting him ready to establish himself as an top 6 NhL'er as soon as next season. I trust Bergevin and co will take the good decision for Galchenyuk and the canadiens.

 

[Account Terminated]

Sorry...wasn't meant as a criticism, it's much appreciated, i'm sure it's pain-staking work.

I just mean that while those kinds of reports are informative, they also provide over-analysis IMO.

Gotta be careful to not draw too many conclusions based on a shift-to-shift report...

Don't be sorry, no offence was taken.

I was a bit skeptical at first when it came to writing down what happened during each shift. I wanted to start off by just posting the time of the shift and any stats involved (i.e. Galchenyuk shift: 1:12. 1 assist, 1 takeaway). Then I started to get DMs of people begging me to write a short analysis of each shift. I tried it out and people loved it.

I definitely hear you on drawing too many conclusions though. Sometimes he can turn the puck over 3-4 times a game in Sarnia, and I'll have to explain to those that ask that, for one he carries the puck more than almost anyone else on the team (Sarault is up there) and two, he passes the puck a lot more than anyone else on the team too. Bound to turn the puck over more when you're passing it 100 times, over someone passing it 10-15 times.

 

[habsfanatics*]

Maybe his knee need more testing... maybe not, he personally insisted over and over he is fine 100% recovered... habs are convinced hence his 3th spot selection, now maybe his skating needs work... that is something that is mostly work during off season anyways.. its not like playing in montreal would give him a disadvantage on that regard.. au contraire. we dont want Gally regressing either like Huberdeau...even tough Huberdeau has done it all already.. so i know its not exactly the same situation. I am in for a 9 game trial.. (if they have such a thing this season.. if there is a season lol) then we will see. If he has clearly a spot on this team (any top 3 lines)... well so be it. If not finnish the year in the O. Then next year is the year. I dont think Bergy will think about losing a year but more of gaining a half a season of getting him ready to establish himself as an top 6 NhL'er as soon as next season. I trust Bergevin and co will take the good decision for Galchenyuk and the canadiens.

Regressing like Huberdeau? Care to explain?

 

[habsfanatics*]

Don't be sorry, no offence was taken.

I was a bit skeptical at first when it came to writing down what happened during each shift. I wanted to start off by just posting the time of the shift and any stats involved (i.e. Galchenyuk shift: 1:12. 1 assist, 1 takeaway). Then I started to get DMs of people begging me to write a short analysis of each shift. I tried it out and people loved it.

I definitely hear you on drawing too many conclusions though. Sometimes he can turn the puck over 3-4 times a game in Sarnia, and I'll have to explain to those that ask that, for one he carries the puck more than almost anyone else on the team (Sarault is up there) and two, he passes the puck a lot more than anyone else on the team too. Bound to turn the puck over more when you're passing it 100 times, over someone passing it 10-15 times.

I love the work you do crimson. It's up to the individual to decipher/interpret the information you provide. Posters making ill-informed conclusions based on the data you provide is on them, not you. If it's not a bother to you, or something you enjoy doing, I'd love for you to continue, if it's becoming a pain, then it's fair for you to discontinue.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Don't be sorry, no offence was taken.

I was a bit skeptical at first when it came to writing down what happened during each shift. I wanted to start off by just posting the time of the shift and any stats involved (i.e. Galchenyuk shift: 1:12. 1 assist, 1 takeaway). Then I started to get DMs of people begging me to write a short analysis of each shift. I tried it out and people loved it.

I definitely hear you on drawing too many conclusions though. Sometimes he can turn the puck over 3-4 times a game in Sarnia, and I'll have to explain to those that ask that, for one he carries the puck more than almost anyone else on the team (Sarault is up there) and two, he passes the puck a lot more than anyone else on the team too. Bound to turn the puck over more when you're passing it 100 times, over someone passing it 10-15 times.

Well said.

There is another variable in play that may not be evident to some of our less experienced posters. Puck support from your linemates is a huge factor when looking at passing efficiency and puck possession skills. In junior, hockey players are generally weak in the area of understanding where to position themselves to receive passes and provide a viable and safe option for the puck carrier. The result is that the puck carrier is often forced to hold on to the puck longer than they would like due to the lack of puck support and defenders are able to take away space from the carrier. This results in the puck carrier either having to dump the puck, use high risk maneuvers to allude the defender or make a lower percentage pass to a teammate who is in a less than optimal position to receive it.

The good news is that players in the NHL have a vastly greater understanding of this aspect of the game and players like Galchenyuk are huge benefactors as their passing effeiciency often is greatly improved. Kuraly is an example of a player who doesn't have a clue about puck support and plays with a very low hockey IQ which has proven to be very detrimental to Galchenyuk's overall performance at the WJC's.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Regressing like Huberdeau? Care to explain?

Huberdeau definitely hasn't regressed. His progression may have stalled a little but to label it as regression seems a little too harsh. I do think that he is overrated and won't be a franchise player but he will be a legitimate top six player on any team.

 

[Montreal Impact FC]

Regressing like Huberdeau? Care to explain?

Indeed it needs more explanations.. i think the heart isnt there anymore for huberdeau at junior level he is just too good.. at some point you get annoyed.. start playing for playing.. losing the drive that makes u better start just doing what u have to do... of course nothing is proven.. but imo huberdeau is spenimg 1 year he didnt need. He is regressing in terms of is learning curve isnt the same... while if huberdeau would have been in the nhl this year he would i am sure working his butt off and 100% motivated.

 

[417]

What's 3 months in the NHL on a likely bad team going to do? Sending him to the OHL saves his entry level contract from being wasted on a write off 48 game season.

What's 3 months in the nhl going to do? Are you serious?

At this point in his development, Galchenyuk would benefit more, IMO, from being in the NHL, practicing, travelling, learning how to be a pro, etc (this is assuming that he shows he's ready at camp) as opposed to racking up points in the OHL...

Again, he's CLEARLY, one of the top 3 players in the OHL, if not THE best... IF he's ready, then it's not even a debate imo, he should be in the NHL, even if he's playing a minor role or even in the press box a few times...

He's too good for the OHL, the only reason he should be there, is if he comes to camp and looks over matched, which I think is highly unlikely

As for his entry level contract, it should be a consideration but it should never be he reason why he doesn't make the team

Again, if he comes to camp and can't hack it... Then send him back... But if he comes to camp and he an presence makes the team, a better team, then the habs would be foolish to send him back

 

[417]

I think the better question is. What will 3more months hurt? There is no potential downside imo of sending a Jr player back to junior after missing an entire season of potential development. He still has holes that are better suited to be worked on in jr than learning on the job in Montreal.

His knee still needs to be tested completely, before putting him in a schedule that will see him play four games a week against stronger men.

I think there's a lot of potential downside... He could develop bad habits, become lackadaisical, uninterested, etc.

It's quite clear he's too good for that level...

As far as he said knee.... Don't know why people keep bringing this up, it's been over 1 year since he got injured, it's not an issue anymore

The only concern I have is the schedule... But that's why you manage his ice time

 

[Whitesnake]

I think there's a lot of potential downside... He could develop bad habits, become lackadaisical, uninterested, etc.

It's quite clear he's too good for that level...

As far as he said knee.... Don't know why people keep bringing this up, it's been over 1 year since he got injured, it's not an issue anymore

The only concern I have is the schedule... But that's why you manage his ice time

Seems that the kid doesn't have the persona to develop bad habits, at least that's what Timmins keeps selling so we shouldn't worry about that. And I know that junior isn't the NHL....but what about bringing his team far in the playoffs. Sarnia didn't seem to be that great at the start, seems that him, Goldobin a few others took care of that...but till when and how far? Would be interesting to know, as the go-to-guy, where he can bring his team that everybody thought would be a seller and is now a buyer. Finish the job you started. He will be a Habs in a full season next year.

And actually, in the category of "stupid point" please don't mention it...I already did.....less Gally means more chances to finish low in the standings....THIS IS THE 2013 DRAFT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Seems that the kid doesn't have the persona to develop bad habits, at least that's what Timmins keeps selling so we shouldn't worry about that. And I know that junior isn't the NHL....but what about bringing his team far in the playoffs. Sarnia didn't seem to be that great at the start, seems that him, Goldobin a few others took care of that...but till when and how far? Would be interesting to know, as the go-to-guy, where he can bring his team that everybody thought would be a seller and is now a buyer. Finish the job you started. He will be a Habs in a full season next year.

And actually, in the category of "stupid point" please don't mention it...I already did.....less Gally means more chances to finish low in the standings....THIS IS THE 2013 DRAFT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!

It couldn't hurt for him to have another off season of training to prepare for the NHL. He is relatively strong for a junior player but any gains made would help protect him at the next level. A little improvement in his skating would also be nice to see......

The risks outweigh the rewards imo at this point in having him join the big club. Let him finish his season in junior and come to camp in September so he can battle for a roster spot with a full slate of pre-season games. As excited as some people are to see him in Montreal, I believe this is the correct course of action. He should make the team based on merit and to do so he will have to beat out incumbents. In order to do so it will require a pre-season, which there won't be any time for if play resumes later this month.

 

[417]

Seems that the kid doesn't have the persona to develop bad habits, at least that's what Timmins keeps selling so we shouldn't worry about that. And I know that junior isn't the NHL....but what about bringing his team far in the playoffs. Sarnia didn't seem to be that great at the start, seems that him, Goldobin a few others took care of that...but till when and how far? Would be interesting to know, as the go-to-guy, where he can bring his team that everybody thought would be a seller and is now a buyer. Finish the job you started. He will be a Habs in a full season next year.

And actually, in the category of "stupid point" please don't mention it...I already did.....less Gally means more chances to finish low in the standings....THIS IS THE 2013 DRAFT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!

Fully agreed 100%...but again, if he shows he's ready at camp. How can you really justify sending him back?

This is not like we're talking about an obscur 5th round pick who impresses at camp (see Gallagher last yaer). There's a reason why Gally went 3rd overall despite missing an entire year.

Obviously the Habs feel he has what it takes to possibly make the team, hence why he'll be given an opportunity to challenge for a spot.

Bringing Sarnia deep in the playoffs is great, but learning how to be a pro in the NHL is even better IMO.

This is all premature though, first thing he needs to do is come to the Habs camp and show he's not only ready for the NHL, but show that he can make the team better. If he does that, then there's no scenario IMO, that would justify sending him back down.

 

[habsfanatics*]

I think there's a lot of potential downside... He could develop bad habits, become lackadaisical, uninterested, etc.

It's quite clear he's too good for that level...

As far as he said knee.... Don't know why people keep bringing this up, it's been over 1 year since he got injured, it's not an issue anymore

The only concern I have is the schedule... But that's why you manage his ice time

Three months of OHL is likely to lead to bad habits that haven't occurred in 3 years? I think you're grasping here to defend your position tbh.

The knee and the schedule go hand in hand.

 

[Grant McCagg]

I think it has been quite evident at the WJC that Gally has not been picking up bad habits - his play without the puck has been solid, as has his effort. I'm fine with him staying in junior, also fine with him making the Habs if/when he earns it.

 

[417]

Three months of OHL is likely to lead to bad habits that haven't occurred in 3 years? I think you're grasping here to defend your position tbh.

The knee and the schedule go hand in hand.

That's not what I was implying...I don't think there's any risk of sending him back down to Sarnia, like WS said, I don't suspect he's the type of player who would let bad habits creep into his game, so that's not necessarily a concern for me

Again, this is all assuming that he comes to camp and shows that he's ready for spot...then I don't see how it would be MORE beneficial to him to return to Sarnia, as opposed to staying with the Habs, even if he's in a limited role.

This theory that he needs to 'dominate' the OHL is pretty silly if you ask me, he's been doing that from the moment he's stepped onto the ice.

I'm not grasping at any straws here and I certainly don't need to 'defend my position'...

My position is clear...if he comes to camp and shows that he can make the Habs a better team, then he should stay, if he comes to camp and doesn't show this...then he should return.

Whether or not Galchenyuk plays with the Habs this year will come down to him...not some perceived handicap with his knee, not some Habs fans insecurity in needing to see him finish atop the leading scorers of the OHL, or any other cliché reason to not have him in the NHL.

 

[417]

I think it has been quite evident at the WJC that Gally has not been picking up bad habits - his play without the puck has been solid, as has his effort. I'm fine with him staying in junior, also fine with him making the Habs if/when he earns it.

Exactly...if he EARNS a spot, how can you justifiy sending him back for reasons like his knee isn't 100% or that it's better for him to dominate in juniors.

That's complete nonsense if you ask me...

 

[Blind Gardien]

I'd rather not see him make the Habs if he's going to get pressbox nights with much frequency or play 8 minutes a game with 4th liners. In that scenario, which is realistically a "fair" setup for many young players just starting out, I'd rather see him playing in the OHL for the rest of this year. But I also don't think it ultimately ought to matter. It won't make or break him either way. It's just a personal preference. If he's good enough to play every night for the Habs and get 12+ minutes and maybe even some PP time or scoring line opportunities, then I want him on the Habs, if he's not, then just let him keep rolling in the OHL. For this mini-year.

I can't guess yet whether he's ready for the level of role I'd want to see him in as a Hab. Despite watching him in the OHL and WJC. Maybe it will even be hard to tell in an initial handful of NHL games while the NHLers are still ramping themselves up too.
But I would tend to say the WJC is at least making me lean towards guessing that he's "not ready" yet.

 

[417]

I'd rather not see him make the Habs if he's going to get pressbox nights with much frequency or play 8 minutes a game with 4th liners. In that scenario, which is realistically a "fair" setup for many young players just starting out, I'd rather see him playing in the OHL for the rest of this year. But I also don't think it ultimately ought to matter. It won't make or break him either way. It's just a personal preference. If he's good enough to play every night for the Habs and get 12+ minutes and maybe even some PP time or scoring line opportunities, then I want him on the Habs, if he's not, then just let him keep rolling in the OHL. For this mini-year.

I can't guess yet whether he's ready for the level of role I'd want to see him in as a Hab. Despite watching him in the OHL and WJC. Maybe it will even be hard to tell in an initial handful of NHL games while the NHLers are still ramping themselves up too.
But I would tend to say the WJC is at least making me lean towards guessing that he's "not ready" yet.

I guess it is all perception...because his play at the WJC has just reinforced my belief that he's ready for the NHL.

Other than perhaps leading the Sting to a deep playoff run, I don't really think he has anything left to learn in the OHL. He's way too good for that level and has been ever since he stepped on the ice as a 16yr old.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Exactly...if he EARNS a spot, how can you justifiy sending him back for reasons like his knee isn't 100% or that it's better for him to dominate in juniors.

That's complete nonsense if you ask me...

The problem is that he won't have a chance to "earn" a spot this season. There isn't going to be a pre-season in which he can do this. Just arbitrarily handing him a spot makes very little sense to me given the contactual downside and risks involved with an 18 year old playing in a men's league.

I have no problem with playing your best players regardless of outside factors but I don't see how they can determine his place in the depth chart without guaging him against other NHLers in actual game situations.

 

[Blind Gardien]

I guess it is all perception...because his play at the WJC has just reinforced my belief that he's ready for the NHL.

Interesting, I definitely don't focus on him or USA players in general, but have at least watched all their televised games, and felt like he was generally just "blending in", aside from the occasional flash. Obviously there are players on his team who are standing out more and grabbing the headlines, but I would have liked to see Galchenyuk be in that group of headliners before I felt like he could clearly be categorized as "NHL ready".

Other than perhaps leading the Sting to a deep playoff run, I don't really think he has anything left to learn in the OHL. He's way too good for that level and has been ever since he stepped on the ice as a 16yr old.

Well, I saw him more at 16 than at 18, and he was definitely not too good for the league at 16. Very good for a 16-year old. But not remotely too good for the league. Even now, he's a bona fide superstar in the OHL, but not "too good" for the league. Leagues have their superstars, it doesn't mean the superstar is too good for the league, the way I look at it. I don't know if playing 20+ minutes of superstar duty every night at the OHL level is better or worse for his development than 8 minutes a week of spot duty in the NHL (but practicing at NHL pace)... my guess is that it shouldn't matter much either way. His team isn't going on a deep playoff run in the OHL, nor likely in the NHL. It doesn't sound like he'll be traded in the OHL. If he gets any late season action in the AHL, they aren't going deep there either. Maybe there actually won't even be an NHL season, still, of course. I'm ok with whatever happens. Marc will be relieved to know that, I'm sure.

 

[Aspirine]

Man are we stressed up about this one not busting out!

 

[417]

Interesting, I definitely don't focus on him or USA players in general, but have at least watched all their televised games, and felt like he was generally just "blending in", aside from the occasional flash. Obviously there are players on his team who are standing out more and grabbing the headlines, but I would have liked to see Galchenyuk be in that group of headliners before I felt like he could clearly be categorized as "NHL ready".

Agreed, he hasn't had as many headlines as some of his teamates, but he also hasn't gotten as many opportunities. But when he has, I've found that he's been very good personally. I don't think the quality of his linemates really emphasizes how well he thinks the game out there.

Take for example his last point, his assist to Barber on that goal...the way he walked into the slot, 95% of players in that position would of taken a shot and the goalie played the percentages on that too. But Gally knew exactly where Barber was and fed him a perfect pass at the perfect time. Looks like a simple play because he made it look so easy, but it's not a play many players, especially at that age, can make...but he consistently makes these types of reads. Unfortunately, on Team USA at least, his linemates haven't always been able to read what he's doing, I can just imagine how he'll look when he has an NHL-quality linemate playing next to him...

I think people tend to put too much of an emphasis on the WJC's, so there wasn't anything that Gally was going to do or not do, to make me change my opinion of him.

Well, I saw him more at 16 than at 18, and he was definitely not too good for the league at 16. Very good for a 16-year old. But not remotely too good for the league. Even now, he's a bona fide superstar in the OHL, but not "too good" for the league. Leagues have their superstars, it doesn't mean the superstar is too good for the league, the way I look at it. I don't know if playing 20+ minutes of superstar duty every night at the OHL level is better or worse for his development than 8 minutes a week of spot duty in the NHL (but practicing at NHL pace)... my guess is that it shouldn't matter much either way. His team isn't going on a deep playoff run in the OHL, nor likely in the NHL. It doesn't sound like he'll be traded in the OHL. If he gets any late season action in the AHL, they aren't going deep there either. Maybe there actually won't even be an NHL season, still, of course. I'm ok with whatever happens. Marc will be relieved to know that, I'm sure.

Fair statement...however, I think the last month and a half, Galchenyuk has shown that he's too good for this league. Maybe it's a hot stretch, and that's also a fair statement. But I think it's just his natural maturation as a player.

I personally think that these days...alot more 18-19yr olds are read for the NHL, but because of the eligibility rules, which are somewhat archaic if you ask me, they get stuck no man's land for 1 or 2 years.

Either way...we'll have to see how he performs at camp, all of this is moot until then.

 

[417]

The problem is that he won't have a chance to "earn" a spot this season. There isn't going to be a pre-season in which he can do this. Just arbitrarily handing him a spot makes very little sense to me given the contactual downside and risks involved with an 18 year old playing in a men's league.

I have no problem with playing your best players regardless of outside factors but I don't see how they can determine his place in the depth chart without guaging him against other NHLers in actual game situations.

Also a fair statement, but we're not sure how things will proceed when/if an NHL season begins...let's just see how the process plays out.

My initial thinking was that the Habs would give him every opportunity to make the team since he's got an invite to camp whenever the NHL resumes activities...so obvioulsy, they're going to give him an opportunity to prove his worth

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

I think if you are going to keep an 18 year (or 19 year) old up, you have to be nearly certain he can play a considerable role for your team for most of the season. Like RNH, Hall, Landeskog, Larsson, Couturier, Skinner, etc did right after being drafted. The one exception is Seguin, but I would argue he was ready to do so, the Bruins simply decided to not put him into that role since they were contending. Basically, the kid has to be a top 6 forward or a defenceman who plays at least 18 minutes a night - or in Couturier's case the top defensive forward on the squad.

The list of players who were kept up for the whole season at 18 or 19, could not play those considerable roles and ended up being disappointments is VERY long.

After what I have seen at the WJC, I am not certain Galchenyuk could play that considerable role in what is essentially a 3 month season that will be played at a breakneck pace on a questionable team in transition under a brand new system.