Aleksander 'Sasha' Barkov - Part II

Beezeral

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State pays the cops in Finland. They get nothing from the fines.
The state pays them and the state benefits from the fines. From a financial point of view, it is preferable to pull over someone like Barkov traveling 10km over the limit then his childhood friend driving 30km over the speed limit. The conflict of interest is obvious. If there is any sort of quota system, conflict. If there is a target revenue for the month, conflict.

Even if we assume that everything is on the up and up and there is absolutely no real incentive to pull over expensive cars the system still creates a subconscious incentive to target expensive cars. Good employees want to do what is best for their employer. Pulling over that expensive car means 40k for the state. So if two cars are going the exact same speed and the cop can only pull over one, which one do you think he's going to choose?


And the result is that two people committing the same crime suffer equal consequences.
this is false. The entire purpose of the system is that two people don't suffer equal consequences. Barkov paying a 40k+ fine is not equal to the fine I would receive if I was speeding in Finland.

I understand the purpose of the system is to make a punishment strong enough to actually prevent the behavior, but it still has negative consequences. just different ones.
 
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Acadmus

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ehhh. it incentivizes police to target expensive cars. It also results in a system where two people doing the same thing at the same time are punished differently.
The counter argument is that, since punishment is meant to be a deterrent, basing it on income makes sure it doesn't just deter poor people. That said, laws like this that are uneven in application make me uncomfortable. There's a reason why Lady Justice is depicted as blind with a set of scales. Same standard for everyone, and even punishment shouldn't discriminate based on anything other than the crime.

That said, anyone who pays attention knows that speeding tickets are seen not as a deterrent to dangerous driving habits, but as a source of revenue to whichever jurisdictions collect.

Is this off topic? I didn't see what the thread was :D
 

Acadmus

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Really starting to question his character. Should be exposed to Seattle. Can't have this behaviour in the locker room.
What, there's no sarcasm smiley anymore?:sarcasm:

On a completely unrelated note, I can't ignore posts by people (not you, I am not exposed) whose posting habits you find generally worthless and offensive anymore? Not much of an upgrade to lose that ability, you ask me.
 

Kahvi

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The state pays them and the state benefits from the fines. From a financial point of view, it is preferable to pull over someone like Barkov traveling 10km over the limit then his childhood friend driving 30km over the speed limit. The conflict of interest is obvious. If there is any sort of quota system, conflict. If there is a target revenue for the month, conflict..

Finland is one the most least corrupt countries in the world, and cops stop everyone who is speeding if they drive faster than the predetermined limits. There is absolutely no incentive for cops to stop guys like Barkov speeding, if anything it's the opposite because these tickets get worldwide coverage almost everytime and the cops get blamed even thought they are simply following the law :laugh:
 
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Kahvi

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The counter argument is that, since punishment is meant to be a deterrent, basing it on income makes sure it doesn't just deter poor people. That said, laws like this that are uneven in application make me uncomfortable. There's a reason why Lady Justice is depicted as blind with a set of scales. Same standard for everyone, and even punishment shouldn't discriminate based on anything other than the crime.

Actually fining by the income is equal. Everyone has more or less the same life expenancy, to 1 or 5 or 10 year at prison has the same effect. Giving $10.000 speeding tickets for minor speeding has a really different for a guy making minimun wage compared to Barkov. I'd even argue that the more you make, the less the % of the fine based on your income hurts you.

I make around 2800€ after taxes per month, if I was fined 50% that'd really hurt my budget. If Barkov was fined 50% of his montly income, he'd still be just fine financially
 

Beezeral

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Finland is one the most least corrupt countries in the world, and cops stop everyone who is speeding if they drive faster than the predetermined limits. There is absolutely no incentive for cops to stop guys like Barkov speeding, if anything it's the opposite because these tickets get worldwide coverage almost everytime and the cops get blamed even thought they are simply following the law :laugh:
not a criticism, but most least is incorrect grammar. It's either most or least.

As for your point, how do we know there is no incentive? And again, how do you account for a situation where multiple cars are speeding? Because of this policy the numbers will naturally go through his mind. He is going to have to make a decision.
 

Beezeral

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Actually fining by the income is equal. Everyone has more or less the same life expenancy, to 1 or 5 or 10 year at prison has the same effect. Giving $10.000 speeding tickets for minor speeding has a really different for a guy making minimun wage compared to Barkov. I'd even argue that the more you make, the less the % of the fine based on your income hurts you.

I make around 2800€ after taxes per month, if I was fined 50% that'd really hurt my budget. If Barkov was fined 50% of his montly income, he'd still be just fine financially
it's still 50% of his income which is exponentially higher then what you pay. By sheer fact, that isn't equal. He pays way more then you do.
 

sashalaine

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From a financial point of view, it is preferable to pull over someone like Barkov traveling 10km over the limit then his childhood friend driving 30km over the speed limit.
The salary based dayfines only kick in if you drive 20+ km/h over the limit. That's why this what you suggest is not a problem. If you drive that much too fast anywhere, the police will stop you no matter what car you drive. And I've never heard anyone here even mention the idea that police would be targeting fast cars for speeding tickets.
 

Kahvi

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As for your point, how do we know there is no incentive? And again, how do you account for a situation where multiple cars are speeding? Because of this policy the numbers will naturally go through his mind. He is going to have to make a decision.

yes, police will try to stop every car that is speeding, if that is what you are saying. If there are several guys speeding, the cops will try to stop the one that is speeding the most or most likely to cause damage to third parties. There is no incentive, because police officers have montly salary and are not financed through tickets. If you know Finnish system better, please link some articles showing this.

Also this thing happens a lot with automatic traffic control, everyone gets a ticket regardless of the car they are driving.
 
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GrumpyKelly

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Wow that's an interesting system, a progressive one for sure. Although I'm a capitalist by heart this sounds actually fine, the government needs to gets money from somewhere and what better place is there than crimes done by rich people lol. The hammer coming down hard on them in these types of cases is pretty easily justified.
 

Kahvi

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For what it comes for automatic traffic control here in Finland, I know the limits and the reduction made by the police to make sure they fine only the people speeding. I have my cruise control set up around +%5 of the limit, and I've never had a ticket even thought the cameras have taken pictures few times (I guess they have settings put on "just to make sure if..."). Barkov should know this, and if he didn't he'll surely know it by now. And probably will be more careful with his driving, which is the point of these speeding tickets
 
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SoupyFIN

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The state pays them and the state benefits from the fines. From a financial point of view, it is preferable to pull over someone like Barkov traveling 10km over the limit then his childhood friend driving 30km over the speed limit. The conflict of interest is obvious. If there is any sort of quota system, conflict. If there is a target revenue for the month, conflict.

Even if we assume that everything is on the up and up and there is absolutely no real incentive to pull over expensive cars the system still creates a subconscious incentive to target expensive cars. Good employees want to do what is best for their employer. Pulling over that expensive car means 40k for the state. So if two cars are going the exact same speed and the cop can only pull over one, which one do you think he's going to choose?
There really isn't a conflict of interest and bringing in money for the government is the last thing on their mind when they're pulling people over (we have one of the highest tax rates in the world, traffic offenses are only a small part). Finnish police doesn't get any extra benefits for giving people more tickets, for the sake of giving people tickets. Whether you drive a broken down '80s Corolla or a brand spanking new Mercedes; if you drive like a jackass and cause them to pay attention to you, you're gonna get pulled over regardless of what you drive. Also your example of only pulling over one of two drivers is flawed, if it's excessive speeding and the cops have your license plate on video & it's visible who's driving, you'll still get the fine. And unless you have an extensive criminal record reaching beyond speeding (drugs, theft, violent crimes & the sort), it's very unlikely that police start following you because of the type of car you drive, as long as you're driving normally when you're around them or pass by going the opposite way.

As for Barkov, according to the news story he was driving on a generic Finnish highway (which makes for most of our roads, we don't have that many motorways) where the most common speed limits are 100 & 80 km/h, with the occasional 60 km/h around more populated areas or intersections with poor visibility for cars joining the highway. If I had to guess, Barkov was probably driving on a highway where the limit is 100 for the majority of time (and he may have had cruise control on), when the road changed to a 80 zone and then a 60 zone soon after. It doesn't help that Barkov's Finnish road knowledge isn't that good I'd imagine, as he just got his driving license when his rookie NHL season was about to start and after that he's only had the couple months of summer to spend here. So he's had four summers worth of driving here and let's be honest, how much spare time does he have to just drive around for fun? With his training schedule, I'd say next to nothing.
 

SotasicA

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Maybe they had a problem with millionaires constantly speeding with their Porsches and laughing at tickets?
 

KW

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Finland is one the most least corrupt countries in the world, and cops stop everyone who is speeding if they drive faster than the predetermined limits. There is absolutely no incentive for cops to stop guys like Barkov speeding, if anything it's the opposite because these tickets get worldwide coverage almost everytime and the cops get blamed even thought they are simply following the law :laugh:
Cops don't stop anyone for speeding in Finland, haven't for decades. I've been gone decades, you're there and should know it.

Barky probably got the camera flash going 100 after the speed limit suddenly changed to 60. They place cameras like that purposely, right after the speed is reduced. It's secondarily for safety, primarily for revenue, for some reason the government there doesn't think they tax people enough.
 

Ratsreign

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There really isn't a conflict of interest and bringing in money for the government is the last thing on their mind when they're pulling people over (we have one of the highest tax rates in the world, traffic offenses are only a small part). Finnish police doesn't get any extra benefits for giving people more tickets, for the sake of giving people tickets. Whether you drive a broken down '80s Corolla or a brand spanking new Mercedes; if you drive like a jackass and cause them to pay attention to you, you're gonna get pulled over regardless of what you drive. Also your example of only pulling over one of two drivers is flawed, if it's excessive speeding and the cops have your license plate on video & it's visible who's driving, you'll still get the fine. And unless you have an extensive criminal record reaching beyond speeding (drugs, theft, violent crimes & the sort), it's very unlikely that police start following you because of the type of car you drive, as long as you're driving normally when you're around them or pass by going the opposite way.

As for Barkov, according to the news story he was driving on a generic Finnish highway (which makes for most of our roads, we don't have that many motorways) where the most common speed limits are 100 & 80 km/h, with the occasional 60 km/h around more populated areas or intersections with poor visibility for cars joining the highway. If I had to guess, Barkov was probably driving on a highway where the limit is 100 for the majority of time (and he may have had cruise control on), when the road changed to a 80 zone and then a 60 zone soon after. It doesn't help that Barkov's Finnish road knowledge isn't that good I'd imagine, as he just got his driving license when his rookie NHL season was about to start and after that he's only had the couple months of summer to spend here. So he's had four summers worth of driving here and let's be honest, how much spare time does he have to just drive around for fun? With his training schedule, I'd say next to nothing.
Your local knowledge of driving in Finland, and your knowledge of the actual story would be a nice addition to the thread on main board about Barkov's ticket.
 
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KW

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It’s amazing to me how many posters here think fining someone this much for speeding is reasonable.

I don’t have any illusions about changing anybody’s opinion, I’m only expressing my surprise for the amount of support.
 
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Kaako Kappo

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this is false. The entire purpose of the system is that two people don't suffer equal consequences. Barkov paying a 40k+ fine is not equal to the fine I would receive if I was speeding in Finland.

I understand the purpose of the system is to make a punishment strong enough to actually prevent the behavior, but it still has negative consequences. just different ones.
No. 200 € is not equal amount of money for Barkov and someone who works a blue collar job. So it's not equal. Even 46k is chump change for Barkov. He's lucky he got to keep his drivers licence.... a normal person would've gotten his suspended.
 

Kahvi

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Cops don't stop anyone for speeding in Finland, haven't for decades. I've been gone decades, you're there and should know it.

Yes they do if you go fast enough, I've seen that happen myself maybe 2 years ago. I was driving south from Juva, there was this 1-2km long extra lane for passing. The guy behind me decided to pass the car + boat trailer even though the lane was ending so he hit the pedal. Unfortunately for him, cops were there just where the lane ended, and pulled him at the next intersection to the abandoned gas station parking lot. There was also a motorcycle cop waiting at the intersection if anyone tried to escape. But most of the speeding control is done by cameras, you are correct in that sense.

Barky probably got the camera flash going 100 after the speed limit suddenly changed to 60. They place cameras like that purposely, right after the speed is reduced. It's secondarily for safety, primarily for revenue, for some reason the government there doesn't think they tax people enough.

The current government wanted to raise the smallest speeding ticket, and said it's because they want more income that way. The people who monitor legislation, not sure what's the correct term here, basically said that speeding tickets are not for collecting revenue, it's a punishment, and the law was not changed.
 

SoupyFIN

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Cops don't stop anyone for speeding in Finland, haven't for decades. I've been gone decades, you're there and should know it.

Barky probably got the camera flash going 100 after the speed limit suddenly changed to 60. They place cameras like that purposely, right after the speed is reduced. It's secondarily for safety, primarily for revenue, for some reason the government there doesn't think they tax people enough.
I got a ticket (my first and to this date only one, 104 in a 80 zone while overtaking in the winter) about 4 years ago and I know at least a dozen people who've got a ticket (the manual pulled over -kind) within the last few years.

It's very likely that Barkov got pulled over, since the part about him having one passenger was added. I don't recall that info ever being added when someone famous has got a camera ticket.

The cameras are placed in intersections where there is a history of people speeding and thus causing accidents for a reason. You're naive if you think removing (or relocating) those said cameras would make things better. For example where I live, there's a 60 zone for the highway where it passes by the town center. But because there's no camera on either of the two intersections (where car accidents happen on a regular basis, despite there being decent visibility), trucks don't slow down and most of them go through it at 85-90 (depending on the limiter they have). So while you may not agree on the money aspect of it, the cameras are important for decreasing accidents on dangerous intersections.

Your local knowledge of driving in Finland, and your knowledge of the actual story would be a nice addition to the thread on main board about Barkov's ticket.
I looked through the thread and several posters had mentioned it already.
 

KW

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I got a ticket (my first and to this date only one, 104 in a 80 zone while overtaking in the winter) about 4 years ago and I know at least a dozen people who've got a ticket (the manual pulled over -kind) within the last few years.

It's very likely that Barkov got pulled over, since the part about him having one passenger was added. I don't recall that info ever being added when someone famous has got a camera ticket.

The cameras are placed in intersections where there is a history of people speeding and thus causing accidents for a reason. You're naive if you think removing (or relocating) those said cameras would make things better. For example where I live, there's a 60 zone for the highway where it passes by the town center. But because there's no camera on either of the two intersections (where car accidents happen on a regular basis, despite there being decent visibility), trucks don't slow down and most of them go through it at 85-90 (depending on the limiter they have). So while you may not agree on the money aspect of it, the cameras are important for decreasing accidents on dangerous intersections.

I looked through the thread and several posters had mentioned it already.
You’re correct, I do not agree with the money aspect. Finnish speeding fines are way too high and grossly disproportionate to what should not be a crime but a civil infraction of speeding.

Finnish driving culture and laws are unpleasant to deal with for a place that has relatively little traffic. There’s no right on red, and other such things that could help reduce driver frustrations are not instituted. On highways, when the speed limit is 120 (in the summer), everybody goes 120, which creates these hurds of cars and trucks that essentially trap people. Differential speeds between drivers are helpful for traffic flow.

It’s not surprising then that some drivers lose their cool at times and want to go a bit faster. But in order to do that, you have to pass masses of humanity going 120.

Or if someone is going 118, people pass them going 121. Because they’re afraid there might be a camera if they go 127.

Driving in Finland, the land of some of the world’s best rally and F-1 drivers, could be a joy, but the government agencies in charge don’t want to make it that way. It’s a shame.
 

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