AHL franchise in Sioux Falls

[Fan of Many]

If Sioux Falls wants to leave the USHL and go into pro hockey, the ECHL would be their best fit. It is geographically fits with Rapid City, Tulsa, Kansas City, Wichita to the west, and the Midwest teams to the east. They are right in the middle. I do not see this happening, unless there is some talk over there of this might be happening (which I have not heard of).

AHL would not work as they are too close to the Iowa Wild and I do not see Seattle or any other NHL team wanting to put their AHL affiliate out there. Plus the arena in Des Moines is much larger seating capacity wise and newer.

I still question whether Sioux Falls should be playing in a league that averages about 2k per game when they draw 6-7k. Maybe a better question....could the USHL do better and start going after markets like Sioux Falls? After all, it’s the United States Hockey League, not the Upper Midwest Hockey League. We’ve heard plenty of reasons why the USHL is a better choice for most places than the AHL. How about some USHL vs ECHL chatter?

 

[JMCx4]

... We’ve heard plenty of USHL-AHL comparisons. How about some USHL-ECHL ones?

USHL players are much younger (16 to 20 year olds), ECHL players are much older (oldest current rostered player is 45 years old, Utah goalie Jay Stevens, while four others are 36). ECHL play is far more physical than USHL play. Top USHL players have a good chance to make the NHL & stay, while ECHL players have far longer odds to make & stick in The Show. As a result, ECHL rosters are a bit more stable year-to-year. For fans, the attractions to either league depend on their hockey tastes.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

USHL is the equivalent of Hockey Canada, which as pointed above has not always worked in various models, there's also the NAHL, and its feeder league, the NA3EHL, where several known markets from other higher leagues have played in as well(notably Manchester and Binghamton under the old Senators moniker.....)

Maine has seen the Wild, which at one point had been derived from the Junior Pirates.... Lewiston has the Nordiques, which harkens back to an era prior to Portland becoming the center of pro hockey....

and then Auburn, has its new dual ice arena(Norway Savings Bank), AND has the Twin City Thunder

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

The more I’ve been reading opinions of the modern AHL, I don’t think it’s the best place for Sioux Falls, unless they could get the Wild’s affiliate, which probably isn’t happening(by the way, Sioux Falls has a newer arena than Des Moines). However, I still question whether Sioux Falls should be playing in a league that averages about 2k per game when they draw 6-7k. Maybe a better question....could the USHL do better and start going after markets like Sioux Falls? After all, it’s the United States Hockey League, not the Upper Midwest Hockey League. We’ve heard plenty of reasons why the USHL is a better choice for most places than the AHL. How about some USHL vs ECHL chatter?

Very difficult since a lot of markets have supported minor pro hockey in one version or another for a long time and convincing them to pay the same price to watch teenagers play, regardless of talent level, is a massive undertaking. There's very few success stories for markets who made the switch, with Johnstown and the NA South Division being the only ones popping out. There's been many more who haven't taken to it like Flint (with both the O & NA), Bloomington, Youngstown is still struggling, Rio Grande, Fresno, and a host of others. Manchester NH is having trouble convincing people to see ECHL hockey after they supported their AHL predecessor, despite their sustained on-ice results.

Before the junior hockey scene on the East Coast got all jumbled up, the USHL supposedly was looking at several locations for an East Division, like Erie, since the McDavid-era Otters nearly relocated to Hamilton, and Johnstown along with Lewiston, ME and a couple of others.. They ultimately chose not to go that route for the same reason that 4/6 NAHL East Division teams rely entirely on income not derived from ticket and sponsorship sales. That reason being the northeast is too saturated with hockey, especially New England. People's ranked hockey interest is NHL/NCAA D1&AHL/ECHL/NCAA D3, and juniors would go well below D3. And the NAHL only made that move to counter the USPHL, something which the USHL wasn't willing to do or delegated to the NAHL.

There's just not enough markets like Lewiston, where it's too far away from the dozens of easy and cheap hockey options, who have an arena and tangible fan base to make the USHL go east. Lewiston hasn't even joined the NA because of their geographic limitations, the USHL would be even worse. The USHL is on an island and there's even fewer options going west and south than east. They keep travel cheap and relatively easy. Muskegon, Youngstown, and Fargo have some longer trips, but no one is regularly spending more than 24 hours in a bus like you see in other leagues. That's why most of the UShow teams are able to get by pretty nicely with 3,000 people per game. Expanding is highly unlikely and relocations are difficult since they can't be very far away from their cluster of teams or else the team is very quickly not financially feasible.

 

[Fan of Many]

I recently found these three articles. They seem to contradict most of the AHL bashers on this thread. I still ponder what level (USHL/CHL, ECHL, or AHL) non-NHL markets that draw well (say...5000+ per game) should play. I guess there’s no one-size-fits-all, but saying a city would be better off with junior hockey as opposed to ONE LEVEL below the big leagues makes little sense to me. What city says they’d rather have single-A instead of triple-A baseball? Answer =none! I know that hockey has a culture of its own, but there are quirks I sometimes struggle to accept.

Multiple NHL Teams Looking At Salt Lake For AHL Affiliate - KSL Sports.

Players in the AHL are just one step away from fulfilling NHL dreams - NHL to SEATTLE

A SITDOWN WITH DES MOINES HOCKEY ICON BOB FERGUSON | Iowa Wild

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I recently found these three articles. They seem to contradict most of the AHL bashers on this thread. I still ponder what level (USHL/CHL, ECHL, or AHL) non-NHL markets that draw well (say...5000+ per game) should play. I guess there’s no one-size-fits-all, but saying a city would be better off with junior hockey as opposed to ONE LEVEL below the big leagues makes little sense to me. What city says they’d rather have single-A instead of triple-A baseball? Answer =none! I know that hockey has a culture of its own, but there are quirks I sometimes struggle to accept.

Multiple NHL Teams Looking At Salt Lake For AHL Affiliate - KSL Sports.

Players in the AHL are just one step away from fulfilling NHL dreams - NHL to SEATTLE

A SITDOWN WITH DES MOINES HOCKEY ICON BOB FERGUSON | Iowa Wild

Do you not understand the difference between talent level and type of play? AHL is a slight step below the NHL, but the type of play is slower, more drawn out, with tons of mistakes during the course of play. Most AHL players are young and inexperienced because the league is where future NHL prospects are blooded and improve. If they were NHL ready, they'd be in the NHL. The ECHL typically is a wide-open game with constant free flowing rushes going both ways. Juniors leans more towards the ECHL style of play rather than the AHL.

As for your claim that no market rejects the opportunity to host higher level hockey, I'm guessing you've never heard of Ft. Wayne or Toledo. They have attendances that would be towards the top of the AHL and have rejected multiple attempts to join. Indianapolis and Kansas City both rejected the Blues AHL affiliate offer in favor of staying in the ECHL. Florida Everblades were sought after for a long time as well.

This is hockey. The team with the most talent and ability doesn't win every game. The Lightning haven't won a cup yet despite having the most talented team in the league for a few years. Ovechkin couldn't carry his team to a cup, even during his best years and McDavid won't be able to do it either. Hockey is like every other marketable sport in history: a business. Fans don't show up to watch a good team, they show up for an entertaining team. Sometimes they're the same thing, but only sometimes.

These are quirks. Accept them. It's hockey.

 

[royals119]

I recently found these three articles. They seem to contradict most of the AHL bashers on this thread. I still ponder what level (USHL/CHL, ECHL, or AHL) non-NHL markets that draw well (say...5000+ per game) should play. I guess there’s no one-size-fits-all, but saying a city would be better off with junior hockey as opposed to ONE LEVEL below the big leagues makes little sense to me. What city says they’d rather have single-A instead of triple-A baseball? Answer =none! I know that hockey has a culture of its own, but there are quirks I sometimes struggle to accept.

Multiple NHL Teams Looking At Salt Lake For AHL Affiliate - KSL Sports.

Players in the AHL are just one step away from fulfilling NHL dreams - NHL to SEATTLE

A SITDOWN WITH DES MOINES HOCKEY ICON BOB FERGUSON | Iowa Wild

The thing is, it isn't a "city" that decides. It is the team owner. And for some owners (for example the ECHL Grizzlies) the advantages of an AHL team don't outweigh the costs. They would have to either pay the costs of leaving the ECHL and joining the AHL, plus any necessary upgrades to facilities, or have an NHL partner who was going to help with that, or sell the team and let the NHL team operate an AHL franchise in their place. Plus either the current owner of the Grizzlies or the NHL owner would have to find an AHL owner who is willing to sell, or convince the other AHL owners to help them force a sale like the reportedly did to Norfolk several years ago. It isn't just as simple as the local fans preferring a higher level of hockey.

That first article has several inaccurate statements, and appears to be more of an opinion piece by a local hockey fan trying to drum up interest than an actual news article.

 

[Fan of Many]

Wow, there’s a lot of love for the ECHL out there! What would happen if an average USHL team played an average ECHL?Is realize there’s a big age difference that favors the ECHL, but the USHL has about 2x as many former players in the NHL. Would it even be competitive? One thing I like about the ECHL is that it’s full of cities (for the most part) that actually give a damn about their team.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Wow, there’s a lot of love for the ECHL out there. Perhaps I need to change the name of this post! How much better is the ECHL than the USHL? I realize there’s a big age difference that favors the ECHL, but the USHL has about 2x as many former players in the NHL. What would happen if an average USHL team played an average ECHL? Would it even be competitive? One thing I like about the ECHL is that it’s full of cities (for the most part) that actually give a damn about their team.

It was not love for the ECHL. It was rejecting your assertion that all cities want the AHL because it is the league that offers the highest level of hockey. They give a damn about their team, and advancing to the AHL means their team goes from caring about winning to serving a higher power, with results put on the back burner over developing precious talent.

If an ECHL team played a USHL team, it would be a toss-up. An older, more experienced, and more physically developed team against a younger, more skilled team. It would be competitive. The USHL to NHL numbers are artificially propped up by the inclusion of the USNTDP. In the first round of the 2019 NHL Entry Draft, 8 members of the UDNTDP were chosen and 1 player from the rest of the league. It will advertise 9 total USHL draft picks, but it's borderline false advertising.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Very difficult since a lot of markets have supported minor pro hockey in one version or another for a long time and convincing them to pay the same price to watch teenagers play, regardless of talent level, is a massive undertaking. There's very few success stories for markets who made the switch, with Johnstown and the NA South Division being the only ones popping out. There's been many more who haven't taken to it like Flint (with both the O & NA), Bloomington, Youngstown is still struggling, Rio Grande, Fresno, and a host of others. Manchester NH is having trouble convincing people to see ECHL hockey after they supported their AHL predecessor, despite their sustained on-ice results.

Before the junior hockey scene on the East Coast got all jumbled up, the USHL supposedly was looking at several locations for an East Division, like Erie, since the McDavid-era Otters nearly relocated to Hamilton, and Johnstown along with Lewiston, ME and a couple of others.. They ultimately chose not to go that route for the same reason that 4/6 NAHL East Division teams rely entirely on income not derived from ticket and sponsorship sales. That reason being the northeast is too saturated with hockey, especially New England. People's ranked hockey interest is NHL/NCAA D1&AHL/ECHL/NCAA D3, and juniors would go well below D3. And the NAHL only made that move to counter the USPHL, something which the USHL wasn't willing to do or delegated to the NAHL.

There's just not enough markets like Lewiston, where it's too far away from the dozens of easy and cheap hockey options, who have an arena and tangible fan base to make the USHL go east. Lewiston hasn't even joined the NA because of their geographic limitations, the USHL would be even worse. The USHL is on an island and there's even fewer options going west and south than east. They keep travel cheap and relatively easy. Muskegon, Youngstown, and Fargo have some longer trips, but no one is regularly spending more than 24 hours in a bus like you see in other leagues. That's why most of the UShow teams are able to get by pretty nicely with 3,000 people per game. Expanding is highly unlikely and relocations are difficult since they can't be very far away from their cluster of teams or else the team is very quickly not financially feasible.

The AHL model really isn’t all that great of a business unless your really close to a parent club and or are a city that has a built in hockey culture that can sustain losing game after game for the sake of developing players. If you where a fan in Idaho being in the echl with a competitive product and invested local owners makes sense over a AHl club that’s purpose is to develop prospects your are not invested in.

 

[PCSPounder]

Oh darn, I blew my joke quotient on this subject already on the BoH board by advocating for Flin Flon to the NHL (see the Halifax-to-NHL thread). That means I may have to settle for Climax, Saskatchewan to the A.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Oh darn, I blew my joke quotient on this subject already on the BoH board by advocating for Flin Flon to the NHL (see the Halifax-to-NHL thread). That means I may have to settle for Climax, Saskatchewan to the A.

Intercourse, Pennsylvania will be the next great AHL market, change my mind. Flin Flon has too many people and too much to do.

 

[Fan of Many]

It was not love for the ECHL. It was rejecting your assertion that all cities want the AHL because it is the league that offers the highest level of hockey. They give a damn about their team, and advancing to the AHL means their team goes from caring about winning to serving a higher power, with results put on the back burner over developing precious talent.

If an ECHL team played a USHL team, it would be a toss-up. An older, more experienced, and more physically developed team against a younger, more skilled team. It would be competitive. The USHL to NHL numbers are artificially propped up by the inclusion of the USNTDP. In the first round of the 2019 NHL Entry Draft, 8 members of the UDNTDP were chosen and 1 player from the rest of the league. It will advertise 9 total USHL draft picks, but it's borderline false advertising.

I’ve recently been a bit curious whether the USHL and ECHL are on the same level of competition. I’ve done a few searches and come up with nothing. Thanks, you’ve been the first to answer that question! So, the ECHL really isn’t a Double-A like a lot of people say it is? Double-A is probably the NCAA and CHL? Single-A is USHL and ECHL?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I’ve recently been a bit curious whether the USHL and ECHL are on the same level of competition. I’ve done a few searches and come up with nothing. Thanks, you’ve been the first to answer that question! So, the ECHL really isn’t a Double-A like a lot of people say it is? Double-A is probably the NCAA and CHL? Single-A is USHL and ECHL?

The ECHL is AA in terms of talent. Most of the players there are at that AA talent level. The AHL-level players who are only there to get more playing time are few and far between.

Trying t0 rank non-professional league talent with "A's" won't yield accurate results. League talent is too comparable. Use qualitative or comparative rankings rather than quantitative rankings. A lot of scouts put the USHL level or above the OHL, which is typically the most talented major junior league. The WHL is typically level or just behind the OHL and the QMJHL is far behind, so grouping the CHL together is not advisable.

And each league has its own style of play, which makes ranking talent more difficult. I would suggest watching games and making the decision for yourself. The argument over NCAA and major junior has been going on for decades and everyone has an opinion.

 

[210]

I’ve recently been a bit curious whether the USHL and ECHL are on the same level of competition. I’ve done a few searches and come up with nothing. Thanks, you’ve been the first to answer that question! So, the ECHL really isn’t a Double-A like a lot of people say it is? Double-A is probably the NCAA and CHL? Single-A is USHL and ECHL?

The ECHL is a legitimate AA league. Right now, based on points, Worcester is the worst ECHL team. They would absolutely destroy any USHL, NCAA, or CHL team. It wouldn't be close.

 

[Fan of Many]

Thanks for the reply. That’s some serious contrast! One guy says a USHL-ECHL matchup would be very competitive and you say the USHL would take an absolute beating. We might need a few more to weigh in on this topic.

 

[210]

Thanks for the reply. That’s some serious contrast! One guy says a USHL-ECHL matchup would be very competitive and you say the USHL would take an absolute beating. We might need a few more to weigh in on this topic.

Who said this?

 

[JMCx4]

Who said this?

"One guy ..." If it'd been "Two guy" there'd be no room for argument.

 

[JMCx4]

... We might need a few more to weigh in on this topic.

Since the topic is: "AHL franchise in Sioux Falls," I don't think this side discussion will yield much value.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

the veteran rule has nothing to do with that, you want to place blame it lies solely at the feet of Don Levin and the Wolves, tommy, why not abolish the folly that is the 3 on 3 shootout and who brought that into the AHL, Yup, Levin and his cronies from the IHL..... Want to bring back Independent teams, too, we can start with the Wolves

I can remember the days where veterans could be directly added from the European leagues and signed to AHL SPC's

What??? Shootout was brought in from the NHL, not Levin. The lack of veterans in the AHL leaves teams with lack of marketing and recognition. The marketing "come see possible future NHLers aint really a draw.

You used to be able to see former NHLers play that were in the twilight of their careers. Now you see 20 somethings without a career.

With Seattle joining the NHL, the AHL will expand in the next few years. When Vegas came in they chose not to buy the expansion franchise, setting off a series of moves. Will Seattle do the same, causing another domino effect where more than one team changes affiliates, will they buy the AHL franchise themselves and own their team, or will they find a new AHL owner to buy the franchise and affiliate with them? Lots of possibilities out there. I agree Sioux Falls is probably not in the running, but some city will get a new team, and there might be other teams affected when it happens.

Yep.

The USHL is the equivalent (or slightly lower) of the average Major Junior teams. They are also amateurs and most are there so college coaches can see them compete and they are trying to get scholarships. They stay in the homes of parents and go to local schools or get home schooled. Sioux Falls has an excellent base of fans, they bring the codes and they support hen children that are playing the game.

Going from USHL to AHL would be like going from high school to AHL and killing the high school team. Not everyone wants to see a bunch of stuck up a-holes who think they are the next coming of Mark Messier and trash the community in which they play.

ECHL is a professional league. End of story.