AHL 2020-21 season start in February; 28 teams, five divisions; UPD: no playoffs?

Centrum Hockey

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If the NhL team owns the AHL team they can afford to lose money.

If owned by another party they need to make money.
New Jersey and Calgary are infamous for being so indifferent toward's minor league markets. To the point where their AHL team end's up moving every 5 years or so.
 
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Barclay Donaldson

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I'm pretty sure it's the money.
It's always the money.

That is only the case for the minority of teams. It is prospect development first, making money second as the league wide standard. Teams like Chicago Wolves are the last remnants. Check out AHL attendance for the bottom half of the league and look at the number of teams clearly not making money yet clearly entrenched in their market for the long term.
 

Centrum Hockey

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That is only the case for the minority of teams. It is prospect development first, making money second as the league wide standard. Teams like Chicago Wolves are the last remnants. Check out AHL attendance for the bottom half of the league and look at the number of teams clearly not making money yet clearly entrenched in their market for the long term.
San Jose choose's to keep their AHL team in the same city for optimal prospect development over potentially making more money and growing the sharks brand in another city in Northern CA.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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New Jersey and Calgary are infamous for being so indifferent toward's minor league markets. To the point where their AHL team end's up moving every 5 years or so.
also, a reminder.... Stockton has a renewal extension in play after 2021-22, it has nothing to do with New Jersey, Centrum.
 

Flukeshot

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I am really curious to see how much change and flexibility the AHL (or NHL parent) is going to have to implement.

What markets will have fans? Will travel restrictions force temporary homes for some teams? Will any independently owned franchises take the year off?
 

tarheelhockey

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If the NhL team owns the AHL team they can afford to lose money.

If owned by another party they need to make money.

There are a bunch of NHL teams that can't afford to just throw money down a hole for the hell of it. According to this thread, average AHL team budgets were in the $3-4M range a few years ago. That's not monopoly money, we're talking $3-4M that an actual person is signing over to a bunch of other people for no purpose other than holding a glorified prospect camp.

In cases where the teams aren't owned by NHL organizations, that will absolutely not happen. In cases where they're owned by NHL organizations, maybe half of them will be fine with it and the other half will have serious reservations. A bunch of owners are already being devastated in their primary lines of business, and furloughing or laying off NHL-level employees en masse. How are they supposed to feel about going further into the red for the sake of minor league development?

I could more easily see the NHL granting teams the option to carry their high-end prospects as black aces during the regular season, than see the entire AHL get up and running without revenue streams. It's just not gonna happen.
 

vorky

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There are a bunch of NHL teams that can't afford to just throw money down a hole for the hell of it. According to this thread, average AHL team budgets were in the $3-4M range a few years ago. That's not monopoly money, we're talking $3-4M that an actual person is signing over to a bunch of other people for no purpose other than holding a glorified prospect camp.

In cases where the teams aren't owned by NHL organizations, that will absolutely not happen. In cases where they're owned by NHL organizations, maybe half of them will be fine with it and the other half will have serious reservations. A bunch of owners are already being devastated in their primary lines of business, and furloughing or laying off NHL-level employees en masse. How are they supposed to feel about going further into the red for the sake of minor league development?

I could more easily see the NHL granting teams the option to carry their high-end prospects as black aces during the regular season, than see the entire AHL get up and running without revenue streams. It's just not gonna happen.
That is sad. Some people may dislike that development.
 

JMCx4

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... A bunch of owners are already being devastated in their primary lines of business, and furloughing or laying off NHL-level employees en masse. How are they supposed to feel about going further into the red for the sake of minor league development?

I could more easily see the NHL granting teams the option to carry their high-end prospects as black aces during the regular season, than see the entire AHL get up and running without revenue streams. It's just not gonna happen.
I'd like to see a list with citations backing up that statement in bold text. I'm curious who that "bunch" includes.

Meanwhile, my thought since the NHL expanded their 2020 playoff rosters to include more Black Aces was that the practice would continue into the next season (maybe opening even a few more roster slots per team) as a strategy to allow the AHL as an entity to pause for a year & let the pandemic pressures on AHL economics subside. Now I'm not sure what the AHL owners are up to, but a December restart just doesn't seem sustainable for any NA hockey league below the NHL. :dunno:
 

tarheelhockey

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I'd like to see a list with citations backing up that statement in bold text. I'm curious who that "bunch" includes.

The first one that jumps to mind is Jeremy Jacobs. Delaware North has had deep cuts and layoffs.

Alex Meruelo, Arizona owner, has been much discussed because of his ties to food service and casinos, two industries that are in panic mode right now.

Calgary's Tom Gaglardi is in hotels and restaurants. Speaks for itself.

Vincent Viola and Josh Harris are tied up in the markets. Also speaks for itself.

The Wirtzes are hard to judge, but they're heavily tied to sports/events, beverage distribution, insurance. That can't be going well for them right now. Leonsis, Burkle and Foley are in a similar position, diversified for stability but also tied to some struggling industries. The bottom line is they're ultimately also tied to market performance, which has tanked.

Islanders' Scott Malkin is leveraged in fashion retail outlets, which are doing terribly.

I have to think the Pegulas are losing money hand over fist, with so much of their wealth leveraged into pro sports. I know they've been laying people off from their parent company.

Calgary's Murray Edwards is an oil/gas guy. That industry was already a wreck before the pandemic dramatically reduced oil consumption.

Stan Kroenke (Colorado) is very heavily leveraged on pro sports. Same as the Pegulas.

Larry Tanenbaum's money comes from construction and public works. That's going to tank for a few years as budget shortfalls cascade into long term planning.

Of the ones I haven't named, most are very heavily leveraged in their ownership of their NHL teams/arenas -- Leipold for example. That group is going to end up losing a lot of money this year, by virtue of the NHL and arena-entertainment industry facing severe losses.

There are a few that are probably doing relatively OK, but even at that the situation has to be skittish for every single one of them.
 

kaiser matias

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The first one that jumps to mind is Jeremy Jacobs. Delaware North has had deep cuts and layoffs.

Alex Meruelo, Arizona owner, has been much discussed because of his ties to food service and casinos, two industries that are in panic mode right now.

Calgary's Tom Gaglardi is in hotels and restaurants. Speaks for itself.

Vincent Viola and Josh Harris are tied up in the markets. Also speaks for itself.

The Wirtzes are hard to judge, but they're heavily tied to sports/events, beverage distribution, insurance. That can't be going well for them right now. Leonsis, Burkle and Foley are in a similar position, diversified for stability but also tied to some struggling industries. The bottom line is they're ultimately also tied to market performance, which has tanked.

Islanders' Scott Malkin is leveraged in fashion retail outlets, which are doing terribly.

I have to think the Pegulas are losing money hand over fist, with so much of their wealth leveraged into pro sports. I know they've been laying people off from their parent company.

Calgary's Murray Edwards is an oil/gas guy. That industry was already a wreck before the pandemic dramatically reduced oil consumption.

Stan Kroenke (Colorado) is very heavily leveraged on pro sports. Same as the Pegulas.

Larry Tanenbaum's money comes from construction and public works. That's going to tank for a few years as budget shortfalls cascade into long term planning.

Of the ones I haven't named, most are very heavily leveraged in their ownership of their NHL teams/arenas -- Leipold for example. That group is going to end up losing a lot of money this year, by virtue of the NHL and arena-entertainment industry facing severe losses.

There are a few that are probably doing relatively OK, but even at that the situation has to be skittish for every single one of them.

And regarding layoffs, the Canucks announced 49 adminstrative cuts the other day, and likely more to follow (the 49 was to avoid labour law regulations about notice before mass layoffs, which starts at 50 people). I believe other teams have done similar.
 

tarheelhockey

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And regarding layoffs, the Canucks announced 49 adminstrative cuts the other day, and likely more to follow (the 49 was to avoid labour law regulations about notice before mass layoffs, which starts at 50 people). I believe other teams have done similar.

Yeah, I didn't mention Dundon because I really don't know how he's faring. But I do know the Hurricanes have furloughed a bunch of staff and put those who were retained on very restrictive contract renewals. That led to John Forslund leaving the organization a couple of weeks ago, because he wasn't going to get paid if they didn't have home games next year.

Dundon plays hardball regardless, but I think this specific behavior was driven by COVID related losses.
 

bleedblue94

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Scott Howden flat out said on 31 thoughts podcast that if the league can't have fans than they can't operate. There are still privately owned teams that cant survive without them in the building, now (my words not his) is it possibile the NHL agrees to fund losses for the ahl so there is a functioning development league operating? there is no way the ahl can operate without hemorrhaging money, especially with all the additional safety and health expenses. Mix in that you'd basically be operating as MLB does now traveling location to location but on busses with young 20 something year olds you will have covid issues everywhere. The majority of those kids will not be as responsible as the older guys, it's just how it goes. Ahl is banking on a vaccine coming out near that time.
 
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patnyrnyg

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Sep 16, 2004
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New Jersey and Calgary are infamous for being so indifferent toward's minor league markets. To the point where their AHL team end's up moving every 5 years or so.
I never understand why they do this. Was told the Devils had a pretty good following in Albany. Close enough to get players to the big club in an emergency, but far enough that they can develop their own base. I understood when the Rangers moved from Binghamton to Hartford when the Whalers left, same for the Sens moving to Binghamton. The constant changing just doesn't make sense to me.
 
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CHRDANHUTCH

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I never understand why they do this. Was told the Devils had a pretty good following in Albany. Close enough to get players to the big club in an emergency, but far enough that they can develop their own base. I understood when the Rangers moved from Binghamton to Hartford when the Whalers left, same for the Sens moving to Binghamton. The constant changing just doesn't make sense to me.
the Devils relationship isn't what it was the 2nd time....that's the business side of hockey....
 

Centrum Hockey

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I never understand why they do this. Was told the Devils had a pretty good following in Albany. Close enough to get players to the big club in an emergency, but far enough that they can develop their own base. I understood when the Rangers moved from Binghamton to Hartford when the Whalers left, same for the Sens moving to Binghamton. The constant changing just doesn't make sense to me.
Binghamton offered to absorb all losses for the devils to keep the AHL in the city.
 

Barclay Donaldson

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I never understand why they do this. Was told the Devils had a pretty good following in Albany. Close enough to get players to the big club in an emergency, but far enough that they can develop their own base. I understood when the Rangers moved from Binghamton to Hartford when the Whalers left, same for the Sens moving to Binghamton. The constant changing just doesn't make sense to me.

They did not have a pretty good following in Albany. They were regularly last in the AHL in attendance and only averaged more than 3500 fans per game during one season. The Albany River Rats before them did somewhat well in what has always been linked to "shiny new team in a shiny new arena" effect before they too fizzled out. Albany is heavy NY Rangers territory as well.

New Jersey is hardly the first team to not care about their AHL affiliate. Most NHL teams have the want and will to develop their prospects well. New Jersey doesn't. It takes a lot of time, money, and dedication. It is a waste unless you have all three <<in spades>> so to say.
 
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Stumbledore

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Jan 1, 2018
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I am really curious to see how much change and flexibility the AHL (or NHL parent) is going to have to implement.

What markets will have fans? Will travel restrictions force temporary homes for some teams? Will any independently owned franchises take the year off?

Unless the USA smartens up and decides to stop the magic thinking and actually address the virus with science, Canada will continue to close its border with America.

Good luck running the AHL with all the Canadian teams temporarily domiciled in the USA.
 

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