AHL announces divisions for 2015-16

[Tommy Hawk]

Yes, someone has said that.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=102601421&postcount=50



So you're defending someone that said the exact thing you just claimed no one claimed.

And I never once said traveling had "ZERO impact on the playoffs" or anything close to that.

So that's two fails for you.

I guess you completely fail to understand something called a differentiating factor. In those posts it NEVER says it is the ONLY reason they won. IT says they are better prepared for the playoffs than those that do not travel and the number of winners has proven that point. They are better prepared for the fianls. They also had other factors that helped them win the championship but travel was NOT THE ONLY reason.

You have failed on so many levels in your argument you have fallen well below Hutch level and have become irrelevant.

 

[210]

I guess you completely fail to understand something called a differentiating factor. In those posts it NEVER says it is the ONLY reason they won. IT says they are better prepared for the playoffs than those that do not travel and the number of winners has proven that point. They are better prepared for the fianls. They also had other factors that helped them win the championship but travel was NOT THE ONLY reason.

You have failed on so many levels in your argument you have fallen well below Hutch level and have become irrelevant.

Untrue. You chose to stop looking where the numbers are marginally in your favor. What do the numbers look like going back another 20 years when there were teams all over eastern Canada that traveled a lot? I'll save you the trouble of looking, it destroys your theory.

And there hasn't been one iota of proof shown by anyone that travel is the deciding factor. Not. One. If you're making that assertion, then prove it.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

OK, so in this scenario, the Kings for example would have two affiliates on the same tier of play, Ontario and Manchester. The Kings are likely to retain their more advanced players in nearby Ontario, if simply for logistical reasons. This leaves Manchester with lesser skilled players year after year. That wouldn't be as problematic if Manchester were on a lower tier than Ontario because all the other teams on that tier will have players of roughly the same level of skill. However, if the two affiliates are on the same tier, Ontario has a distinct advantage against the average team while Manchester has a distinct disadvantage. Ontario has a much better chance to place higher in the standings in its league than Manchester does in its league. This likely means Manchester would be a perennial cellar dwellar in the New England League (or whatever it would be called), while teams with closer NHL parents like Providence, Hartford, and Bridgeport would dominate the league. So I think there's value in retaining the two separate tiers.

Wouldn't it depend on the teams? I know they are leaving the AHL but say Worcester got one as the secondary of the Sharks as they used to be the primary. They would be on level ground theoretically with Manchester. But would they finish last? By getting less attention from their big club maybe they get more veterans to come to town because that playing time should be there. It really wouldn't affect Manchester and Ontario as a whole because they could only meet in the finals. Could happen but maybe not likely. Sadly to say hockey doesn't need a second tier when it comes to an organization. ECHL teams don't get many guys from the NHL organization and if they do its guys they don't want that are out of options. Not to say the league doesn't have its good players but you only need 23 players. So that's guys on your NHL team and prospects on your AHL team or juniors. I just don't see the point of having two affiliate leagues in hockey. I wish the ECHL would understand that but...

 

[Nightsquad]

Wouldn't it depend on the teams? I know they are leaving the AHL but say Worcester got one as the secondary of the Sharks as they used to be the primary. They would be on level ground theoretically with Manchester. But would they finish last? By getting less attention from their big club maybe they get more veterans to come to town because that playing time should be there. It really wouldn't affect Manchester and Ontario as a whole because they could only meet in the finals. Could happen but maybe not likely. Sadly to say hockey doesn't need a second tier when it comes to an organization. ECHL teams don't get many guys from the NHL organization and if they do its guys they don't want that are out of options. Not to say the league doesn't have its good players but you only need 23 players. So that's guys on your NHL team and prospects on your AHL team or juniors. I just don't see the point of having two affiliate leagues in hockey. I wish the ECHL would understand that but...

There is nothing for the ECHL to understand. The NHL is dictating the shifts and trends. The ECHL is merely accommodating what the NHL Teams are mandating and how it's trickling down to the AHL and apparently there is room for a role in development in minor pro (not including JR. And NCAA) hockey. Twenty years ago the ECHL was playing a smaller role in development of talent for many who were not yet ready for the AHL for whatever reason. Hell I can tell you the rosters of the Devils AHL teams over the last decade were not exactly made up of guys who were ready for AHL success let alone the NHL. Point in being the ECHL is not trying to be anything spectacular, it has always known its place and today is positioning itself at the request of the NHL teams for its own place in the hockey hierarchy and who can blame them? There are no independent unaffiliated minor pro hockey leagues out there in the United States folks other then the SPHL. If anyone here is under the delusion they have the intelligence and the finances to start up an independent pro hockey league in mid to large cities and in professional arenas to challenge the new landscape dictated by professional hockey then be my guest, chances are it would have already been in the works. This is the new reality for AHL fans, still think your parent club's priority is to win your team an AHL Cup or to increase fans in the seats? If you are an NHL owned AHL clubs's fan then think again, they have bigger things to worry about. Atleast an ECHL team's GM and Coach can make ECHL moves given the fact more then half of the roster are ECHL contract players.

 

[Lunatik]

No one EVER said the ONLY reason they won was because they traveled more. Ever. Never ever. NEver ever ever.

Axe and I just indicated that the teams that have traveled more have won more cups since the IHL was absorbed into the AHL. NEVER EVER did either of us say it was the ONLY reason.

You, on the other hand, said that traveling more had ZERO impact on the playoffs.

We proved you wrong so just move on.

You didn't prove anything.

I'm not saying you're wrong and they're right, or vice versa. But it is literally impossible to prove that travel as an impact on playoff outcomes, just like it is impossible to prove it has no impact. One can speculate, but since it is nothing that can be measured, it cannot be proven.

 

[RFA]

In 06-07 the Rats made the playoffs for the first time in many years. They also travelled to a few west teams- i.e. more travel. But they lost in 5. The year after they lost in 7. But with less travel. Last year Abbotsford made the playoffs- lots of travel. This year Adirondack didn't. Less- but still a good amount of- travel. And Utica played 6 in Abbotsford a continent away last year, but then 6 in Glens Falls this year, 90 minutes away. This year's team is doing better. And two of the three left are owned by NHL teams.

There are more decent players now, enough where a AAA-AA system could work. In baseball the AAA team is usually more of the "veterans" where the top prospects will spend more time in AA.

But there aren't baseball leagues around the world paying more than the AA or even AAA guys make, competing for the players. There also aren't players coming from other countries where $2,500 or $3000 a month for a six month season is money you can't turn down.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

There is nothing for the ECHL to understand. The NHL is dictating the shifts and trends. The ECHL is merely accommodating what the NHL Teams are mandating and how it's trickling down to the AHL and apparently there is room for a role in development in minor pro (not including JR. And NCAA) hockey. Twenty years ago the ECHL was playing a smaller role in development of talent for many who were not yet ready for the AHL for whatever reason. Hell I can tell you the rosters of the Devils AHL teams over the last decade were not exactly made up of guys who were ready for AHL success let alone the NHL. Point in being the ECHL is not trying to be anything spectacular, it has always known its place and today is positioning itself at the request of the NHL teams for its own place in the hockey hierarchy and who can blame them? There are no independent unaffiliated minor pro hockey leagues out there in the United States folks other then the SPHL. If anyone here is under the delusion they have the intelligence and the finances to start up an independent pro hockey league in mid to large cities and in professional arenas to challenge the new landscape dictated by professional hockey then be my guest, chances are it would have already been in the works. This is the new reality for AHL fans, still think your parent club's priority is to win your team an AHL Cup or to increase fans in the seats? If you are an NHL owned AHL clubs's fan then think again, they have bigger things to worry about. Atleast an ECHL team's GM and Coach can make ECHL moves given the fact more then half of the roster are ECHL contract players.

That's all true. The problem is there's exceptions to the rule. Quick is the latest example I can think of. But he was a goalie and that's different. Most NHL backups are guys who easily could be in the AHL the next season. So its a fickle position. But most of the echl guys are going nowhere but maybe an ahl shot at some point. The stars of the NHL don't play a day of minor league hockey. I can't speak of how the finances really work. I do know the AHL teams pay a fee annually. I don't know about ECHL teams but like you said rosters are different. Most of an AHL team is NHL contracted. You might have a couple of vets who are only AHL contracted but I believe still couldn't get signed by another NHL organization. ECHL teams I don't know. Affiliations are mainly a year so I don't know if they pay fees. But most ECHL rosters are signed by the team. Then you get a couple of send downs of guys AHL teams don't want. They probably could survive independently. The AHL likely not but the operating costs are a lot higher. No idea on what a team salary can be but the ECHL has a certain number. I don't quite remember it. I know that the NHL teams don't pay for anything for the AHL teams like a thank you for their services but I guess in a way they help them out by sending them players with NHL contracts so that it really cuts down on the price of an overall roster since if guys are two way they just get paid by the NHL club I believe.

 

[HansH]

You mean inter conference is all there is. You mean out of conference?

INTERconference IS "out of conference". Games within the same conference are INTRAconference.

INTER: Between
INTRA: Within

And now you know.

 

[HansH]

And let's just end this whole farcical "merge the ECHL and AHL" right here and now with one incontrovertible fact.

PLAYER SALARIES.

The costs to the AHL team for players is either the cost of the affiliation for the independent owners (a couple of million a year or so, someone may have better numbers), or the actual cost of the players' salaries for the NHL-owned teams, which is typically MORE than the cost of an affiliation.

Meanwhile, the ECHL's salary cap is a quarter of a million dollars or so. For all players. For the WHOLE SEASON.

There is a MASSIVE financial difference just on that scale alone between running an AHL team and running an ECHL team. That's why while there may indeed be more cases where AHL markets become ECHL markets and vice versa, this idea of "merging the leagues cause they're just the same anyway" is a nonstarter that should have been put in its grave one post after it was originally floated.

 

[210]

Meanwhile, the ECHL's salary cap is a quarter of a million dollars or so. For all players. For the WHOLE SEASON.

Just as FYIs...

ECHL salary cap this season was $12,615 per week for the first month of the season and then $12,200 per week for the rest of the season. Salary floor was $9,100.

Player minimum was $415/week for rookies and $460/week for everyone else.

Housing costs are paid by the teams and are not counted against the team salary cap or player minimums.

 

[HansH]

Just as FYIs...

ECHL salary cap this season was $12,615 per week for the first month of the season and then $12,200 per week for the rest of the season. Salary floor was $9,100.

Player minimum was $415/week for rookies and $460/week for everyone else.

Housing costs are paid by the teams and are not counted against the team salary cap or player minimums.

Thank you -- I was going off of a prior CBA where the cap was about 10k (maybe 10,500) a week.

So, with the math, that makes the cap under $320k for the whole season (housing excepted). Less than a third of a million, compared to the 1-2 million for an AHL affiliation, still making my point significant.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

But this isn't the NHL....NBA....mlb....or NFL. Granted 3 of the 4 have salary caps. What difference is the cap going to make when atleast half of an ahl roster is made up of prospects. It would still come down to how a franchise wants to build a team. A lot of teams in the minors don't even want to waste a spot on vets. I'm too lazy to look every team up over the past decade but especially in the echo I know not every team actually utilizes all the vet spots. Then for who teams you have to factor NHL owned teams who don't at all give a damn about the team. There's more factors than just a cap.

 

[HansH]

But this isn't the NHL....NBA....mlb....or NFL. Granted 3 of the 4 have salary caps. What difference is the cap going to make when atleast half of an ahl roster is made up of prospects.

If you don't understand the economic difference between two million dollars a year and one-third of a million dollars a year on the scale of a minor league sports business, you have no business commenting on anything involving the business of hockey.

 

[Rumblick]

I'm not sure how the AHL can have a "cap" given the placement of some very high-priced vets on some rosters. I think many of them have a "budget" which would guide them in signing players to AHL-only, or AHL-ECHL deals. BTW, I put both words in quotes because I know there's some dealing going on between AHL teams and their parents as far as who to sign, who to keep, and who to wave bye-bye to.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

If you don't understand the economic difference between two million dollars a year and one-third of a million dollars a year on the scale of a minor league sports business, you have no business commenting on anything involving the business of hockey.

I understand the difference but I'm guessing some of that two million goes to...the affiliation. Never figured it out but to join the ECHL is over one million. I think it might be two. Really no idea why given the roster structure. But that money difference in the minors wouldn't necessarily make a difference in the on ice product. Where the difference would be is total operating costs. ECHL teams don't pay affiliation fees that I know of for example.

 

[210]

I understand the difference but I'm guessing some of that two million goes to...the affiliation. Never figured it out but to join the ECHL is over one million. I think it might be two. Really no idea why given the roster structure. But that money difference in the minors wouldn't necessarily make a difference in the on ice product. Where the difference would be is total operating costs. ECHL teams don't pay affiliation fees that I know of for example.

$3 million for an expansion franchise.

 

[MM658]

Having trouble with this one:

How do we categorize the Utica Comets if they win the Cup this season? Are they a "bus league" team because they played two-thirds of their road games either in New York State or against the two nearby Canadian teams? Or are they a "travel team" because they made four big-boy multi-game trips during the season?

 

[Disengage]

I understand the difference but I'm guessing some of that two million goes to...the affiliation. Never figured it out but to join the ECHL is over one million. I think it might be two. Really no idea why given the roster structure. But that money difference in the minors wouldn't necessarily make a difference in the on ice product. Where the difference would be is total operating costs. ECHL teams don't pay affiliation fees that I know of for example.

I feel like most of your posts are prefaced with "I don't actually know but I think..."

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

I feel like most of your posts are prefaced with "I don't actually know but I think..."

Most people on here qualify with that category but even lack thoughts. The point is even with whatever the operation difference not every minor league team runs the same. Hell the Devils for example might as well run Albany like an ECHL team. They don't go out and sign them any real quality minor league players and it shows with Devils affiliates the last decade plus only making the playoffs a couple of times. Not everyone operated like Hershey. Furthermore why the hell do teams need to pay an affiliation fee? Like these NHL teams are hurting for money. Granted they aren't all making money like the mlb and NFL. But I would highly doubt that affiliation fee makes the difference on if an nhl team will be in the red or black in a given season.

 

[UticaHockey]

Having trouble with this one:

How do we categorize the Utica Comets if they win the Cup this season? Are they a "bus league" team because they played two-thirds of their road games either in New York State or against the two nearby Canadian teams? Or are they a "travel team" because they made four big-boy multi-game trips during the season?

The Comets were toughened up in the playoffs eating airline peanuts and pretzels with free soft drinks......

 

[RFA]

Comets flew from Grand Rapids to Albany, bus to Utica. Grand Rapids bussed to Utica. Utica won.

Devils brought in Paul Thompson, Joe Whitney, Tim Sestito- decent/good AHL players if you look at their numbers. New GM/Coach in NJ, wonder if it will be any different.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

The Comets were toughened up in the playoffs eating airline peanuts and pretzels with free soft drinks......

No peanuts and pretzels on flights any more.

 

[HansH]

Furthermore why the hell do teams need to pay an affiliation fee? Like these NHL teams are hurting for money. Granted they aren't all making money like the mlb and NFL. But I would highly doubt that affiliation fee makes the difference on if an nhl team will be in the red or black in a given season.

Because if they didn't, there would be zero motivation for the NHL team to supply the players to the AHL team.

This is a learning opportunity for you, I suggest you take it.

The affiliation paid by the AHL team ownership to the NHL team is the price for the NHL team to supply the players to the AHL team, and in some cases the coach and staff as well. The NHL team continues to actually pay the players while they play for the AHL team -- in fact, usually the salary of those players is greater than the cost of the affiliation agreement. So, yes, the NHL team loses some money, as the cost of player development -- but they gain flexibility in terms of not themselves having to own and bear the cost of the whole AHL team infrastructure, both on and off the ice.

You are technically right that the affiliation fee is almost certainly not the difference between red or black ink for the NHL team. But if I'm an NHL team and I have an AHL team saying "sure, send me your players and keep paying their salaries and I'll take all the ticket revenue I get for putting them of the ice", and another AHL team saying "send me your players, keep paying their salaries, but I'll send you back some money, unlike that other guy", then which place am I going to put my AHL players?

Hint: The place that pays me money, over the place that doesn't. Therefore, affiliation fees exist in the AHL. THEY ARE THE COST OF HAVING PLAYERS FOR THE AHL TEAM.

 

[RFA]

In baseball, there aren't affiliation fees. There are way more minor league baseball teams. The teams supply basically the same goods and services, on both sides of the agreements. So it's a perfectly valid point/question.

 

[210]

In baseball, there aren't affiliation fees. There are way more minor league baseball teams. The teams supply basically the same goods and services, on both sides of the agreements. So it's a perfectly valid point/question.

MiLB teams pay a portion of each ticket sold to the MLB club they are affiliated with.