How is there no context? It's not like I'm using just his 22 games this year and saying "he's a 1.68 points per game player", this is spread out over years that he's been playing at this elite level.@Trap Jesus
Can you explain some things to me, please?
Why are you only using P/GP without context? There is a reason many consider them the best line in hockey and it isn't because Marchand is a top 3 offensive talent.
Do you think his on-ice shooting percentage of 20 will continue throughout the year?
You're using Cassidy's hiring as a maker of when to start judging him. Wouldn't that mean his success is more system-related and less about his actual talent?
Wouldn't you then concede that there are probably many other players who look better offensively than Marchand, but are putting up fewer points because they are in a less favorable system?
Would you think that players like Crosby, Ovechkin, MacKinnon, McDavid would put up elite points without a coach that needs to hold their hand?
Yet the results are divided and in favor of him not being top 3 despite the clear cut numbers. This is a poll to encourage discussion as to why rather than throwing out baseless answers.
Goals doesn't mean better player. Marchand is extremely versatile. He's selective with his shots but is deadly when he does shoot. His shooting percentage has always spoken for itself. Points/60, points/game, total points. None of it matters, Marchand is always going to be in that top 3.
How is there no context? It's not like I'm using just his 22 games this year and saying "he's a 1.68 points per game player", this is spread out over years that he's been playing at this elite level.
Pastrnak has certainly been very beneficial for Marchand, but he did play with Seguin before as well. It's just another factor that helps him but it's not the be-all-end-all, Marchand has just as much success without him. If you watch that line you'll know Bergeron is the defensive conscience that puts them in better spots, and Marchand is the very obvious driving force when the Bruins have the puck. Pastrnak is the elite finisher. I think Marchand's defensive game gets massively overrated, but his offense gets way underrated.
Have you seen what his shooting percentage is year to year? The only player with a better shooting percentage this entire decade is Stamkos. He's a selective shooter with an incredible shot. His percentage will come down as the year goes on but he's still going to be near or at the top of the league. And unlike other goal-scorers, his playmaking ability is as impressive or even more impressive than his goal-scoring.
Cassidy quote
All those players you listed have played with shackles off their entire career. Marchand is just getting the same opportunity as them now.
First of all, you aren't encouraging discussion and you are actively sabotaging your poll by @ing people and trying to be a tyrant. This is the internet, you will automatically have people vote opposite of what you want because you have shown such an emotional attachment to the "right" answer. I'm sure that some people might vote yes if they feel he is borderline, but switch it to no, because they realize it pisses you off. I haven't thrown out any baseless answers and your still climbing down my throat about how I don't see the obvious clear cut answer, that is Marchand being top 3 "offensively".
We aren't talking about Pasta being a better player. We talking about him being a better "offensive" player, you seem to be moving the goal posts...I've already stated that Marchand is more versatile than Patrick Kane, but in terms of strictly offensive skill, I don't consider Marchand to be better. Is goals not an effective measure of a players offensive ability? Why should anyone care about PK ability as an offensive measure? Versatility =/= offensive skill.
I am a fan of a Western team, I have no bias against Marchand, we have no playoff history and he hasn't done any dirty stuff to an Oilers player. We play them once/twice a year, but admittedly I laughed out loud when this happened: (Marchand's versatility on full display)
Is that enough to make me biased? You keep acting like everyone has an axe to grind with Marchand, when it's simply not true.
You can only use linemates to some degree, you're getting into crazy hypotheticals for everyone if you do that. What we do know with Marchand is that he's still produced at an excellent rate when both Bergeron and Pastrnak have gone down with injuries. Cassidy frequently has shifted Pastrnak off that line as well. You can say that with everyone as well. When most people's main go-to for this argument is MacKinnon, I don't see how it holds any weight.Still no context, I am asking how much being on the top line in the NHL should discredit his ppg.
It is why people argue Draisaitl's production, he is playing next to the best player offensive player in the league.
Marchand arguably isn't the best player on that line.
Would he still be a top 3 producer playing on Ottawa's top line?
Marchand - Pageau - Brown
doesn't look as good.
This seems to indicate you think Marchand is benefitting a lot from the line he is on, and his production is inflated because of it, you seem to be helping me out with my points. You can't claim someone is "A Top 3 Offensive Player The Last 3 Calendar Years" without context.
Asked about his oish%, it is 20% this year, that is insane. It means when he is on the ice, 1/5 shots go in.
Both his sh% and oish% will come down.
We seem to agree that coaching is a huge influence on a player's production, so maybe what I said is right and there are players around the league who are way better than Marchand offensively but are being kept back by coaching.
You follow a lot of other teams coaching systems, it is amazing you have enough time to watch all those games and post here.
The vote itself isn't what I'm looking at, I'm just interested in the discussion of why. I'm interested in seeing arguments from people that don't come into it with a bias of not liking Marchand or not liking me. It's a very simple agree or disagree question, if they choose to vote through some crazy factor that they don't like the OP, they can do that.OP, you ruined the poll right off the bat, people are going to vote against Marchand in spite of your bias. It's a well known voting behavioral theory
You can only use linemates to some degree, you're getting into crazy hypotheticals for everyone if you do that. What we do know with Marchand is that he's still produced at an excellent rate when both Bergeron and Pastrnak have gone down with injuries. Cassidy frequently has shifted Pastrnak off that line as well. You can say that with everyone as well. When most people's main go-to for this argument is MacKinnon, I don't see how it holds any weight.
At what point do you think that maybe Marchand's ability to beat the on-ice shooting percentage to put up points isn't because of skill? How large of a sample size do you need here, how many more hundreds of games?
OK, who is currently being held back because of coaching? List some examples and we'll debate your hypotheticals. I'm no longer dealing with hypotheticals with Marchand, it's based on production, it just reinforces that there was weight to him being held back for production to some degree by being used in a more defensive role.
Lmao how many times have I told you yes? Bergeron has dealt with two significant absences during this stretch and Pasta one. Marchand trucks along with his year-to-year consistency regardless.MacKinnon is putting up great numbers with his linemates down right now, does Marchand still produce like a top 3 offensive player when Pasta and Bergeron are down?
Crosby continually puts up good numbers with anyone put beside him.
I'll say McDavid, MacKinnon and Crosby are all definitely better than Marchand offensively in my opinion.
My crazy hypotheticals are to show you that your limited view of what a "top 3 offensive player" is, is crazy, you can't just throw a P/GP up and say "settled".
Marchand's oISH% last year was 10%, this year it is 20% so far. I'll take the 82 game sample size over the 20 game one.
Max Domi, putting up better points than Marchand under Julien, he is clearly better and just needs the shackles to be let off.
Then why did you create a poll? I mean, obviously to pump your team's tires like 95% of your threads.The vote itself isn't what I'm looking at, I'm just interested in the discussion of why. I'm interested in seeing arguments from people that don't come into it with a bias of not liking Marchand or not liking me. It's a very simple agree or disagree question, if they choose to vote through some crazy factor that they don't like the OP, they can do that.
To discuss/argue hockey with people, that's what this forum is about. Marchand is a lightning rod for people having different views (particularly outside the Bruins fanbase) for a number of reasons, I knew it would generate discussion.Then why did you create a poll? I mean, obviously to pump your team's tires like 95% of your threads.
There is another subforum if you just wanted to have a discussion of a player.
It's the best at putting up offense, it's pretty simple. You can be the best offensive player and the best defensive player, it's not like you're defined by the definition. He'd be 4th in points because he missed games, the points per game (which is consistent every year), would still be in the top 3.In a few days Draisaitl will pass him in "calendar year" points. Such a cherry picked statistic. If we said last 3 seasons Marchand would be 4th in points and that's way less sexy. I think Marchand has evolved into one of the elite players in the NHL but I don't think he's a top 3 offensive player. Would Burns or Karlsson be considered offensive players since their D game is so trash?
It's the best at putting up offense, it's pretty simple. You can be the best offensive player and the best defensive player, it's not like you're defined by the definition. He'd be 4th in points because he missed games, the points per game (which is consistent every year), would still be in the top 3.
Yeah, defensemen can be judged for this. No D-man is in the same sphere as any of the forwards right now, at least I don't think many would argue that.Points per game are nice but actual points are better. How do we judge defenders in terms of putting up offense? Do they get the same treatment as forwards or do we increase their points totals artificially? Do breakout passes count for offense generated?
Yeah, defensemen can be judged for this. No D-man is in the same sphere as any of the forwards right now, at least I don't think many would argue that.
Who cares? This isn't creating a poll where Marchand put up 5 points in 1 game and Crosby put up 5 in 2 or something, we're talking about a sample size of over 200 games. It's not like points per game is some fairy tale idea when you're talking about 210 games vs. 220 games.
Regardless, he's third in points for this sample size, even if you throw points per game out the window. You can say anything you want about the sample size itself, but if you voted no, you're voting based on the sample size in the OP.They're not a fairy tale with that sample size but they also are not recorded in the NHL statistics because he wasn't playing in the games he missed. I hate the term "the best ability is availability" but it applies here. Marchand's insane PIM number compared to other top scorers has to be a negative in terms of being an offensive player because when you put your team short handed you're defending 99% of the time. He's pree good on the PK though from what I've seen of him (16 SHP) despite his league lead (in 3 calendar years) of shorthanded giveaways.
Regardless, he's third in points for this sample size, even if you throw points per game out the window. You can say anything you want about the sample size itself, but if you voted no, you're voting based on the sample size in the OP.
Discipline doesn't have anything to do with offense at all really, you're most often taking penalties when you're playing defense. Again, this is only about offense, it has nothing to do with other aspects of the game.
OK, all I'm asking is why? Who was better over this period, and why?The reality of the situation is that he currently has the third most points over the duration you've outlined but I personally wouldn't have him top three in my list.
OK, all I'm asking is why? Who was better over this period, and why?
What does this even mean? Its a pretty simple question. You can't say I'm correct but then say it's a personal preference, that makes no sense. It's not like points are the only possible measure of this, but when you're including someone who scored at at under a point per game pace for over half of this sample, it doesn't add up. And Ovechkin scored 0.56 goals per game to Marchand's 0.54. Is this the gap that accounts for the absolutely massive gap for other areas of offense?It's more of a preference of player rather than raw point totals, for me. If you want to use the specific time frame and points scored then you're correct but I just wouldn't have him there according to my own thoughts.
McDavid
Draisaitl
Kucherov
Kane
Ovechkin
Marchand
would be a quick and not very thought out list of mine.
What does this even mean? Its a pretty simple question. You can't say I'm correct but then say it's a personal preference, that makes no sense. It's not like points are the only possible measure of this, but when you're including someone who scored at at under a point per game pace for over half of this sample, it doesn't add up. And Ovechkin scored 0.56 goals per game to Marchand's 0.54. Is this the gap that accounts for the absolutely massive gap for other areas of offense?
I'm not talking about his defense at all, I think Marchand gets massively overrated for defense. The whole analytics argument really is just from playing with Bergeron. I think the impact a winger can have defensively is minimal anyways. His PK ability is legit, he's incredible shorthanded, but when it comes to 5-on-5 defense, he's nothing special whatsoever.
When I'm talking about versatility, I'm talking about offensive versatility. The only real tool he doesn't have is a one-timer, which is something that is Pastrnak's main strength.
In terms of shot, he beats squared up, unscreened goalies from the left side more frequently than any player I've ever seen. You can copy and paste this exact shot countless times throughout his career:
His backhand numbers have always been off the charts as well, and while he's always struggles in shootouts like some of the best players seem to do for some reason, he's always been fantastic on breakaways, either with his backhand or going fivehole.
His playmaking and puck control are kind of intertwined, he possesses the puck more than any of the other Bruin down low, and is always drawing people in to pass off into the slot or finding people in space. His ability to use leverage and quick turns for puck protection is insane, it reminds me a lot of Crosby. He's also incredibly effective in transition gaining the blueline without needing to dump it in. For a player that takes as many risks as he does when he has the puck, he should be turning it over WAY more. Pastrnak is another player that does this a lot, but he turns it over far more. He just doesn't have as tight of a grasp on the puck when he has it.