Agree or Disagree - Marchand Has Been A Top 3 Offensive Player The Last 3 Calendar Years

[Trap Jesus]

Regular Season

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Playoffs

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Since January 1 of 2017-present

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[Sidney the Kidney]

I was going to vote no but I don't want to be called out.

 

[Trap Jesus]

I was going to vote no but I don't want to be called out.

All I want is for one person to give a rational answer for voting no. Shouldn't be too much to ask for.

 

[heretik27]

He is quite easily the most offensive player in the league. I mean really, who the hell licks people?

 

[jetsforever]

I think it's just more likely that it's "no", without naming the exact top 3.
Marchand is 3rd in points, which is certainly impressive, although there are a bunch of others that are close behind (Kane, Crosby, etc.). There will be some variance in the direct skill-to-points ranking, and some of those other guys have worse linemates than Bergeron and Pastrnak. It's possible that Marchand still falls into the top 3 (assuming there is some magical way to objectively determine who's best) but I'd guess that he falls out.

 

[ookhaab]

I suppose my argument is that he has one of the best linemates, the other two are both in the top 30 on that list.

 

[Trap Jesus]

I think it's just more likely that it's "no", without naming the exact top 3.
Marchand is 3rd in points, which is certainly impressive, although there are a bunch of others that are close behind (Kane, Crosby, etc.). There will be some variance in the direct skill-to-points ranking, and some of those other guys have worse linemates than Bergeron and Pastrnak. It's possible that Marchand still falls into the top 3 (assuming there is some magical way to objectively determine who's best) but I'd guess that he falls out.

Look at the games played.

McDavid - 1.43 points per game
Kucherov - 1.33
Marchand - 1.31
Malkin - 1.17
Kane - 1.17
Draisaitl - 1.15
Crosby, MacKinnon, Stamkos - 1.14
Pastrnak - 1.13

And even if you want to say points matter and points per game doesn't with this massive sample size, Marchand is still top 3. If you want to use Crosby's playoffs to overcome the regular season gap, you have to use that against Kucherov. There's no legit argument that can be made to put Marchand out of the top 3.

 

[Trap Jesus]

I suppose my argument is that he has one of the best linemates, the other two are both in the top 30 on that list.

So what's your top 3?

 

[Regal]

I think it's just more likely that it's "no", without naming the exact top 3.
Marchand is 3rd in points, which is certainly impressive, although there are a bunch of others that are close behind (Kane, Crosby, etc.). There will be some variance in the direct skill-to-points ranking, and some of those other guys have worse linemates than Bergeron and Pastrnak. It's possible that Marchand still falls into the top 3 (assuming there is some magical way to objectively determine who's best) but I'd guess that he falls out.

This is what I'm thinking. I've never been a fan of calling anyone "top ___" unless they're clearly in that group, not someone who has a case for just inside the ranking but could be argued not due to others being close and playing in different conditions

 

[Trap Jesus]

This is what I'm thinking. I've never been a fan of calling anyone "top ___" unless they're clearly in that group, not someone who has a case for just inside the ranking but could be argued not due to others being close and playing in different conditions

Is this not a massive gap to you?

McDavid - 1.43 points per game
Kucherov - 1.33
Marchand - 1.31
Malkin - 1.17
Kane - 1.17
Draisaitl - 1.15
Crosby, MacKinnon, Stamkos - 1.14
Pastrnak - 1.13

Even if you take out the guys that have played fewer games like Malkin and Stamkos, we're talking about 11-18 less games over a sample size of 228 at the top end. How much does that even matter?

 

[ookhaab]

So what's your top 3?

McDavid
Kuch - I think he is just a bit better with similar support than Marchand.
Kane/Crosby - has done it with fairly bad supporting cast and/or revolving door of linemates.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The creator of a poll should not be putting his thumb on the scale. Disgraceful.

When you vote, you don't have someone standing over your shoulder asking you to defend your choice.

 

[Trap Jesus]

The creator of a poll should not be putting his thumb on the scale. Disgraceful.

When you vote, you don't have someone standing over your shoulder asking you to defend your choice.

Do whatever you want, you don't have to provide reasoning if you don't want to. When you click one or the other you would think there would be a reason you did so rather than just a random click. If you wish to divulge that reason it would be nice.

McDavid
Kuch - I think he is just a bit better with similar support than Marchand.
Kane/Crosby - has done it with fairly bad supporting cast and/or revolving door of linemates.

How big of a gap can you get though? 1.31 points/game vs. 1.17 or 1.14 is massive. Marchand hasn't missed a beat when either Bergeron/Pastrnak were injured or off his line. Kane was also playing with Panarin for a portion of this sample.

 

[Connor McConnor]

Great player but I have McDavid, MacKinnon, Kucherov, and Kane over him. He has a shot at the 5th spot vs. Crosby and Ovi.

 

[Trap Jesus]

Great player but I have McDavid, MacKinnon, Kucherov, and Kane over him. He has a shot at the 5th spot vs. Crosby and Ovi.

Really interested to hear this. I genuinely do not understand how someone can have this opinion. It's such an obvious linemates comparable, which is the usual go-to for Marchand.

End of 2017

Marchand - 54 in 41 (1.32)
MacKinnon - 28 in 46 (0.61)

2017/18

Marchand - 85 in 68 (1.25)
MacKinnon - 97 in 74 (1.31)

2018/19

Marchand - 100 in 79 (1.27)
MacKinnon - 99 in 82 (1.21)

2019/20

Marchand 37 in 22 (1.68)
MacKinnon - 32 in 22 (1.45)

Total

Marchand - 276 in 210 (1.31)
MacKinnon - 256 in 224 (1.14)

 

[Connor McConnor]

Really interested to hear this. I genuinely do not understand how someone can have this opinion. It's such an obvious linemates comparable, which is the usual go-to for Marchand.

It's just my eye test. MacK may not be as complete of a player but he's more dominant on the offensive end and this poll is about offensive guys. His points and PPG would be up there even closer than Marchand if not ahead if he wasn't playing with complete scrubs in 16/17 and down on confidence. Since then he's the most dominant offensive player outside of McDavid.

If you want to say that MacK has been playing with similar linemates, I'd argue they are quite a bit worse because of the difference between Bergeron and Landeskog (I think Pasta/Rants are as close to a push there is). Also, Bergeron playing the C means less responsibilities for Marchy compared to MacK.

Again, all those guys are very close but pure counting stats don't tell the whole story.

 

[Trap Jesus]

It's just my eye test. MacK may not be as complete of a player but he's more dominant on the offensive end and this poll is about offensive guys. His points and PPG would be up there even closer than Marchand if not ahead if he wasn't playing with complete scrubs in 16/17 and down on confidence. Since then he's the most dominant offensive player outside of McDavid.

If you want to say that MacK has been playing with similar linemates, I'd argue they are quite a bit worse because of the difference between Bergeron and Landeskog (I think Pasta/Rants are as close to a push there is). Also, Bergeron playing the C means less responsibilities for Marchy compared to MacK.

Again, all those guys are very close but pure counting stats don't tell the whole story.

Marchand still outpaces MacKinnon since the start of 2017/18. 1.31 to 1.28. Not only that, but the end of 2017 is still part of this poll.

 

[LeafsNation149]

I voted yes but in reality he's probably 4th or 5th

Kucherov
McDavid

for sure

Kane
MacKinnon

tied

 

[vancityluongo]

voting no just to spite OP

 

[Trap Jesus]

Since it seems I will likely get @ for voting opposite of what you wanted to see...


I think for that time period I would have him fourth behind Kane. But a very close fourth.

I consider regular season only, because its equal opportunity. As a two way player hes definitely top, Kane and Kucherov do not play on the PK and I would consider SH-points to be related to a players defense more than offense, any of those guys could score 16SHP, if they got the puck, but none of them are near Marchand in two way play. Offensively I think they are better, and Kane was certainly better offensively last year. Draisaitl is catching up, but was not the player he is today, in 2017, so for this time-frame I would have him 5/6 with MacKinnon.

I think Marchand is unreal right now, but strictly offensively speaking, I'd have him a close fourth.

If you remove PK points (absurd, but OK), you're still looking at Marchand outpacing Kane for ES + PP points (1.19 vs. 1.19). Not to mention with Kane averaging 17:43 ES per game and 3:26 PP per game, he's way ahead of Marchand's 14:52 ES and 3:07 PP time per game. I can't believe Marchand killing penalties is used as something against him. DOes this not count for offense?

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Not even top 5.

 

[Trap Jesus]

To me, he’s not even the best offensive player on his line. That’s Pastrnak for me.

Guys like Eichel and Panarin who don’t put up as many points but carry a much bigger offensive load are better offensive players, imo.

That’s not to mention your McDavids, Crosby, Kane, Kucherov, Mackinnon, Malkin etc.

To me Marchand is on the same level offensively as guys like Wheeler and Kessel.

Uhhhh, I don't even no how to respond to this one. Completely delusional.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

There's no legit argument that can be made to put Marchand out of the top 3.

Why even do a poll then?

 

[Trap Jesus]

Why even do a poll then?

Look at the results, it's a minority opinion despite all the evidence to the contrary. I'm just creating a forum where people can actually explain themselves rather than just lazily disagreeing with nothing to back it up as is usually the case.

 

[J T Money]

Voted no purely because of the OP