Advanced Analytics and Youth Sports

[hockey38]

No, I am not suggesting crazy dad calculate corsi for his son's mite team.

I am wondering how the use of analytics on the pro level will change, if at all, how kids are coached at the youth level.

Will there be an increased emphasis on puck possession, a decrease of dump and chase, etc.?

Thoughts?

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[Canadiens1958]

Youth Hockey

No, I am not suggesting crazy dad calculate corsi for his son's mite team.

I am wondering how the use of analytics on the pro level will change, if at all, how kids are coached at the youth level.

Will there be an increased emphasis on puck possession, a decrease of dump and chase, etc.?

Thoughts?

Trend is to more and more emphasis on basics. Concussion prevention, safety issues trump tactics.

 

[diceman934]

I have coached minor hockey for many years and the NHL has always influenced minor hockey, not always in the best ways. The trap or left wing lock era, severely hurt skill development for many years. Dump and chase will always be used by teams that are not as skilled as others in their Leagues.

I hope that skill development is the primary focus of teams, but sadly winning is always the priority. I think in the older age groups at the higher skill levels that teaching different tactics should be a focus and that using one PP system and one PK system in all zones is very limiting to player development. A good coach of a highly skilled team should be focusing on knowledge and implementing different tactics and systems to challenge the players and advance their thinking of the game.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

I have coached minor hockey for many years and the NHL has always influenced minor hockey, not always in the best ways. The trap or left wing lock era, severely hurt skill development for many years. Dump and chase will always be used by teams that are not as skilled as others in their Leagues.

I hope that skill development is the primary focus of teams, but sadly winning is always the priority. I think in the older age groups at the higher skill levels that teaching different tactics should be a focus and that using one PP system and one PK system in all zones is very limiting to player development. A good coach of a highly skilled team should be focusing on knowledge and implementing different tactics and systems to challenge the players and advance their thinking of the game.

A few months back I spoke with a prominent former NHLer, and he mentioned this as a big reason why the US has really caught up to Canada in terms of talent and thinks the US could even overtake Canada in that regard down the road. Canada focuses a lot on systems at such a young age, the US just lets talent take over. Perhaps not as conductive for winning games at that level, but obviously better for development.


As for the question, I think if NHL teams begin to put more emphasis on puck possession as a whole, you will see a trickle down effect. However, less talented teams on all levels will likely turn to tactics like the dump and chase to try and beat it, and then you'll see a prominence in just that.

 

[badtakemachine]

Analytics would be quite different for youth hockey. IMO an underlying assumption in the 'analytics' of professional sports is that the plays can be predictable, assuming that players are trained enough to behave predictably in certain situations and that players can and do play in an organized team system. IMO for anything below the highest levels of high school hockey, analytics would be difficult to interpret.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Systems

A few months back I spoke with a prominent former NHLer, and he mentioned this as a big reason why the US has really caught up to Canada in terms of talent and thinks the US could even overtake Canada in that regard down the road. Canada focuses a lot on systems at such a young age, the US just lets talent take over. Perhaps not as conductive for winning games at that level, but obviously better for development.


As for the question, I think if NHL teams begin to put more emphasis on puck possession as a whole, you will see a trickle down effect. However, less talented teams on all levels will likely turn to tactics like the dump and chase to try and beat it, and then you'll see a prominence in just that.

There is a strong drift away from systems in Canada.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Evaluations

Analytics would be quite different for youth hockey. IMO an underlying assumption in the 'analytics' of professional sports is that the plays can be predictable, assuming that players are trained enough to behave predictably in certain situations and that players can and do play in an organized team system. IMO for anything below the highest levels of high school hockey, analytics would be difficult to interpret.

Actually skill evaluations and the fairness of same down to the intro level is a growing area.

 

[Thesensation19*]

Trend is to more and more emphasis on basics. Concussion prevention, safety issues trump tactics.

That is great and all but I think advanced stats are always welcome to competition. It even opens up new doors for kids to enjoy a differ part of the game, which is math and stats for a future outside of the game.

It doesnt have to be too advanced. But you can surely learn your progress through this and that is great

 

[diceman934]

There is a strong drift away from systems in Canada.

That simply is not true....systems is being taught out west at every level and even Novice age. I was hired last year as the head coach of a very large organization and systems were being taught for the majority of a practice at all levels of Rep hockey. I implemented a percentage limit on systems that varies at depending on the age group. Hockey Canada has a suggestion as to what should be taught per age group.

 

[Thesensation19*]

A few months back I spoke with a prominent former NHLer, and he mentioned this as a big reason why the US has really caught up to Canada in terms of talent and thinks the US could even overtake Canada in that regard down the road. Canada focuses a lot on systems at such a young age, the US just lets talent take over. Perhaps not as conductive for winning games at that level, but obviously better for development.


As for the question, I think if NHL teams begin to put more emphasis on puck possession as a whole, you will see a trickle down effect. However, less talented teams on all levels will likely turn to tactics like the dump and chase to try and beat it, and then you'll see a prominence in just that.

USA is a long ways away from knocking out Canada as the top spot of hockey dominance. Can USA Hockey's best at whatever age be the best? Yes. They have shown so on many levels. But Canada can produce a couple, if not several, competitive teams in each international tournament. Olympics for example, USA can barely put together a medal worthy team. Canada can put together at least 3 Gold Medal winning teams. Juniors. Same thing. Maybe more. U-17. Same thing. Womens. Same thing. More players in the NHL are Canadian. More players in the world, are Canadian.

So how can you say Canada has done anything wrong with how its developed players? More rinks, more popularity, more programs, more successful players.

USA has basically stolen its entire model from Europe. Upon my first interview with a USA Hockey affiliate in youth hockey, they told me they follow USA Hockey by the books and its online app. And that it was heavily influenced by the European model of developing players. Small sided drills, stations, focus on quick play and skating. Even hitting has been retaught to help kids properly play defense and not just blow guys up.

The reason USA hockey has grown because more rinks are being built, more programs are being created and USA hockey has updated it tactics. Its much simpler for coaches now for the most part

 

[Canadiens1958]

Well

That simply is not true....systems is being taught out west at every level and even Novice age. I was hired last year as the head coach of a very large organization and systems were being taught for the majority of a practice at all levels of Rep hockey. I implemented a percentage limit on systems that varies at depending on the age group. Hockey Canada has a suggestion as to what should be taught per age group.

10-15 years ago it was mainly systems down to single letter "C". Player could barely skate but at least would fall in close proximity of the proper spot on the ice.

Today the local Midget AAA spends a good part of the first week on evaluations. Then teaching with systems creeping in toward the second half.

 

[diceman934]

10-15 years ago it was mainly systems down to single letter "C". Player could barely skate but at least would fall in close proximity of the proper spot on the ice.

Today the local Midget AAA spends a good part of the first week on evaluations. Then teaching with systems creeping in toward the second half.

Local Midget AAA here, are working on systems all the time. The Saskatchewan Midget League is the best Midget league in the land. They usually win the Canada Midget Championship.

Bantam Major is the year that players get drafted to the Dub( WHL ) and systems is the major focus of the players at the AA level as there is no AAA in Saskatchewan at the Bantam and below levels.

 

[Canadiens1958]

17 Year Olds

Local Midget AAA here, are working on systems all the time. The Saskatchewan Midget League is the best Midget league in the land. They usually win the Canada Midget Championship.

Bantam Major is the year that players get drafted to the Dub( WHL ) and systems is the major focus of the players at the AA level as there is no AAA in Saskatchewan at the Bantam and below levels.

Québec has medaled in 36 out of the 41 Midget finals. Saskatchewan has medaled in 30 out of 41.

Issue is the number of 17 year olds per Midget AAA team. Midget AAA in Québec is virtaully all 15 and 16 year olds with a minimal number of weak 17 year olds who hang around to graduate from high school. Saskatchewan always has a few players who will be 18 by the time the Midget Championship rolls around. Like app 1/2 of Prince Albert last season including some who were eligible for the NHL draft:

http://www.smaaahl.com/leagues/rosters.cfm?leagueID=9165&clientID=3433

Québec Midget AAA are at least one year away from being NHL draft eligible, usually two or three years. Count the number of Minto players born before September 16, 1996.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

10-15 years ago it was mainly systems down to single letter "C". Player could barely skate but at least would fall in close proximity of the proper spot on the ice.

Today the local Midget AAA spends a good part of the first week on evaluations. Then teaching with systems creeping in toward the second half.

So you're basing this on your local Midget AAA team? I played minor hockey 10-15 years ago, but I'm not going to try and base any opinions on those experiences, as it'd be foolish. Like I said, this was something a prominent former player, Hall of Famer who's currently employed by an NHL team, to be precise, mentioned. I can't tell you for sure whether he's right or wrong, but I'll certainly take his word for it over yours.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Comparison

So you're basing this on your local Midget AAA team? I played minor hockey 10-15 years ago, but I'm not going to try and base any opinions on those experiences, as it'd be foolish. Like I said, this was something a prominent former player, Hall of Famer who's currently employed by an NHL team, to be precise, mentioned. I can't tell you for sure whether he's right or wrong, but I'll certainly take his word for it over yours.

The comparison was in response to a local Saskatchewan Midget AAA. So it was quite apt.

The coach of the local Midget AAA in Magog, happens to be Felix Potvin who last season took a last place team and lead them to a division championship and a semi-final spot, losing to the eventual Telus Cup finalist.

Involved with Midget AAA hockey in Quebec since its inception 42 seasons ago.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

The comparison was in response to a local Saskatchewan Midget AAA. So it was quite apt.

The coach of the local Midget AAA in Magog, happens to be Felix Potvin who last season took a last place team and lead them to a division championship and a semi-final spot, losing to the eventual Telus Cup finalist.

Involved with Midget AAA hockey in Quebec since its inception 42 seasons ago.

The post I quoted had nothing to do with Sask AAA, just that you are saying that Hockey Canada as a whole is creeping away from systems, and basing that on one team. Even with them, they obviously implement them.

That's not the point, and the point definitely had little to do with midget leagues. Systems are being implemented at seriously early ages, and that's the trouble, as some believe it's hindering development.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Oh Well

The post I quoted had nothing to do with Sask AAA, just that you are saying that Hockey Canada as a whole is creeping away from systems, and basing that on one team. Even with them, they obviously implement them.

That's not the point, and the point definitely had little to do with midget leagues. Systems are being implemented at seriously early ages, and that's the trouble, as some believe it's hindering development.

Bolded. Never mentioned Hockey Canada.So what is your point again?

Sadly you overlook the trend to school hockey that is prevailing in Québec and elsewhere. Hockey Canada has little jurisdiction over school hockey although there is some movement from certain school groups to join HC.

Local Midget AAA is the pinnacle of the region. Players do not have the freedom to move outside a region. Québec hockey is governed by regions unlike hockey in Saskatchewan where the players have freedom of movement. As such Midget AAA tends to be reflective of the norms in the region. The use of system is declining in favour of skill enhancement and completion.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Bolded. Never mentioned Hockey Canada.So what is your point again?

Sadly you overlook the trend to school hockey that is prevailing in Québec and elsewhere. Hockey Canada has little jurisdiction over school hockey although there is some movement from certain school groups to join HC.

Local Midget AAA is the pinnacle of the region. Players do not have the freedom to move outside a region. Québec hockey is governed by regions unlike hockey in Saskatchewan where the players have freedom of movement. As such Midget AAA tends to be reflective of the norms in the region. The use of system is declining in favour of skill enhancement and completion.

I'm not ignoring anything, I'm relaying something I was told, that's it. You're ignoring the country as a whole and basing everything off your local midget AAA team and that's about it.

You can disagree, again, I'm just relaying what someone in the know said, that there's too much systems being taught at a young age and it's negatively affecting development.

Also, your talking about Quebec having no movement for it's AAA programs is pointless and saying it affects lower levels is absurd. All different coaches you're dealing with, who deal with things on their own. Not to mention, while you can move around in Sask Midget AAA, it doesn't happen that often. Guys typically try out for the team closest to them, that's fairly normal.

 

[Canadiens1958]

School Hockey

I'm not ignoring anything, I'm relaying something I was told, that's it. You're ignoring the country as a whole and basing everything off your local midget AAA team and that's about it.

You can disagree, again, I'm just relaying what someone in the know said, that there's too much systems being taught at a young age and it's negatively affecting development.

Also, your talking about Quebec having no movement for it's AAA programs is pointless and saying it affects lower levels is absurd. All different coaches you're dealing with, who deal with things on their own. Not to mention, while you can move around in Sask Midget AAA, it doesn't happen that often. Guys typically try out for the team closest to them, that's fairly normal.

School hockey is a national phenomena in hockey, around longer that community hockey. Rebounding very strongly, allowing the use of dormant arena ice roughly M-F 8 AM - 5PM uring the school year from. So my views represent a much broader picture.