Adjusted Scoring

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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Most of you are aware of BM67’s adjusted scoring system (link). Basically, the player who finishes second in a scoring category receives one point, and all other statistics are compared to that amount.

Example: Iginla 52 goals= 1.268293 points, Guerin, Sundin & Murray 41 goals= 1 point each, Naslund 40 goals= 0.97561 points

The main benefit of this system is that it put all players from all seasons on an even playing field. Since all players are compared to their peers in a given year, any major variables (ie length of the NHL schedule, level of offense, average ice time per player) are automatically taken into account by the statistic. Still, I think there are two weaknesses with his approach, and I’ve tried to improve on them.

The first weakness is that the results are a bit confusing. For example, when I’m told that Stan Mikita scored 14.913 career points and averaged 3.26 points per season over his prime, it’s hard to intuitively understand the number. The second weakness is that not all second place finishes are created equal – sometimes there’s really only one player who’s ahead of the pack (ie Gretzky scoring 183 points when there were several players 100-110 points) and other times there are a few players well ahead of the pack (ie Lemieux & Jagr each scoring 149+ points, when nobody else exceeded 120 points). The numbers may be skewed if you’re comparing a season with a strong player who finishes 2nd in scoring, to a season with a weak 2nd place finish.

Essentially my “revised BM67 scoring” system is calculated as follows:
  • I take the average of second through fourth place in goals. My rationale is that if you average a few top spots, the result is unlikely to be skewed by a single really strong or weak performance from whoever finishes in 2nd. The average is then awarded 50 goals. Each player’s total goals in a season is compared to this number.
  • Example: in 2002, the average of 2nd through 4th place was 41 goals. We pro-rate all goals by 50/41 = 1.219. So Iginla’s 52 goals are worth 63, Sundin, Guerin & Murray’s 41 goals are worth 50, Naslund’s 40 are worth 49, etc.
  • I do the same calculation for assists (fixing the average of 2nd to 4th place as 75 assists). Then I add goals and assists together to get total adjusted points.

Why this method makes sense:
  • Players are compared to their peers, so it doesn’t matter whether they played in a low- or high-scoring era, and other variables (ie length of schedule, average ice time, etc) are rendered irrelevant
  • The results make sense intuitively since they are all benchmarked to 50 goal & 75 assist milestones.
  • Since I use the average of 2nd through 4th place, it’s unlikely that a really good/bad performance by a single player will skew the results in any way

The disadvantages:
  • There is no adjustment for quality of era, so even obviously weaker eras (ie pre-consolidation from 1918-1925 and WWII from 1943-1945) are treated equally to eras with strong talent pools
  • Obviously this method looks at regular season scoring statistics only -- so playoff performances, defensive play, etc, are not included in this analysis

Let me know what you think about this method. Here are some statistical tables:
 
Last edited:

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,144
14,450
All-Time Adjusted Scoring Leaders (1-100)

Player|Games|Goals|Assists|Points|GPG|APG|PPG|PeakG|PeakA|PeakPts
Gordie Howe | 2061 | 1161 | 1739 | 2900 | 0.56 | 0.84 | 1.41 | 69 | 84 | 151
Wayne Gretzky | 1543 | 796 | 1882 | 2678 | 0.52 | 1.22 | 1.74 | 66 | 127 | 186
Stan Mikita | 1529 | 668 | 1237 | 1905 | 0.44 | 0.81 | 1.25 | 52 | 87 | 136
Alex Delvecchio | 1765 | 630 | 1258 | 1889 | 0.36 | 0.71 | 1.07 | 39 | 73 | 107
Mark Messier | 1808 | 645 | 1205 | 1850 | 0.36 | 0.67 | 1.02 | 40 | 71 | 104
Phil Esposito | 1369 | 780 | 1053 | 1833 | 0.57 | 0.77 | 1.34 | 66 | 86 | 151
Ron Francis | 1778 | 524 | 1295 | 1819 | 0.29 | 0.73 | 1.02 | 28 | 75 | 101
Jean Beliveau | 1292 | 702 | 1103 | 1805 | 0.54 | 0.85 | 1.4 | 54 | 79 | 130
John Bucyk | 1709 | 683 | 1098 | 1781 | 0.4 | 0.64 | 1.04 | 44 | 63 | 104
Jaromir Jagr | 1307 | 671 | 1066 | 1737 | 0.51 | 0.82 | 1.33 | 52 | 80 | 131
Steve Yzerman | 1561 | 649 | 1085 | 1734 | 0.42 | 0.69 | 1.11 | 49 | 66 | 109
Joe Sakic | 1400 | 626 | 1099 | 1724 | 0.45 | 0.78 | 1.23 | 47 | 74 | 113
Marcel Dionne | 1388 | 669 | 1042 | 1710 | 0.48 | 0.75 | 1.23 | 50 | 77 | 125
Norm Ullman | 1584 | 650 | 1053 | 1703 | 0.41 | 0.66 | 1.07 | 48 | 66 | 113
Maurice Richard | 1255 | 854 | 800 | 1654 | 0.68 | 0.64 | 1.32 | 70 | 60 | 122
Bobby Hull | 1203 | 820 | 819 | 1640 | 0.68 | 0.68 | 1.36 | 73 | 65 | 133
Mario Lemieux | 926 | 612 | 977 | 1590 | 0.66 | 1.06 | 1.72 | 58 | 83 | 140
Raymond Bourque | 1665 | 380 | 1153 | 1534 | 0.23 | 0.69 | 0.92 | 23 | 68 | 88
Henri Richard | 1420 | 489 | 1005 | 1494 | 0.34 | 0.71 | 1.05 | 38 | 73 | 109
Ted Lindsay | 1327 | 603 | 888 | 1491 | 0.45 | 0.67 | 1.12 | 51 | 85 | 131
Frank Mahovlich | 1328 | 682 | 799 | 1482 | 0.51 | 0.6 | 1.12 | 53 | 59 | 109
Andy Bathgate | 1236 | 494 | 984 | 1477 | 0.4 | 0.8 | 1.19 | 46 | 82 | 124
Mark Recchi | 1447 | 521 | 946 | 1467 | 0.36 | 0.65 | 1.01 | 38 | 69 | 104
Adam Oates | 1379 | 326 | 1136 | 1462 | 0.24 | 0.82 | 1.06 | 26 | 82 | 105
Jean Ratelle | 1371 | 535 | 921 | 1456 | 0.39 | 0.67 | 1.06 | 41 | 71 | 109
Paul Coffey | 1459 | 359 | 1094 | 1453 | 0.25 | 0.75 | 1 | 32 | 77 | 108
Brett Hull | 1309 | 730 | 699 | 1429 | 0.56 | 0.53 | 1.09 | 62 | 51 | 102
Mats Sundin | 1338 | 575 | 850 | 1424 | 0.43 | 0.63 | 1.06 | 41 | 59 | 99
Luc Robitaille | 1471 | 652 | 749 | 1401 | 0.44 | 0.51 | 0.95 | 46 | 53 | 96
Brendan Shanahan | 1527 | 653 | 748 | 1401 | 0.43 | 0.49 | 0.92 | 45 | 50 | 93
Doug Gilmour | 1518 | 423 | 977 | 1400 | 0.28 | 0.64 | 0.92 | 31 | 72 | 99
Mike Modano | 1343 | 534 | 833 | 1366 | 0.4 | 0.62 | 1.02 | 41 | 61 | 98
Red Kelly | 1565 | 424 | 941 | 1365 | 0.27 | 0.6 | 0.87 | 30 | 67 | 93
Pierre Turgeon | 1335 | 504 | 849 | 1354 | 0.38 | 0.64 | 1.01 | 38 | 60 | 93
Bryan Trottier | 1309 | 471 | 878 | 1349 | 0.36 | 0.67 | 1.03 | 41 | 76 | 115
Guy Lafleur | 1161 | 524 | 803 | 1328 | 0.45 | 0.69 | 1.14 | 53 | 79 | 131
Dave Andreychuk | 1687 | 611 | 703 | 1314 | 0.36 | 0.42 | 0.78 | 39 | 45 | 80
Gilbert Perreault | 1228 | 480 | 832 | 1312 | 0.39 | 0.68 | 1.07 | 40 | 66 | 101
Aurel Joliat | 1280 | 558 | 746 | 1304 | 0.44 | 0.58 | 1.02 | 48 | 65 | 106
Bernie Geoffrion | 1029 | 576 | 717 | 1292 | 0.56 | 0.7 | 1.26 | 52 | 66 | 113
Jari Kurri | 1295 | 527 | 749 | 1277 | 0.41 | 0.58 | 0.99 | 51 | 58 | 108
Nels Stewart | 1164 | 649 | 627 | 1276 | 0.56 | 0.54 | 1.1 | 55 | 52 | 102
Dale Hawerchuk | 1222 | 456 | 819 | 1275 | 0.37 | 0.67 | 1.04 | 41 | 67 | 102
Al MacInnis | 1453 | 327 | 947 | 1274 | 0.23 | 0.65 | 0.88 | 25 | 61 | 83
Howie Morenz | 1062 | 526 | 741 | 1267 | 0.5 | 0.7 | 1.19 | 54 | 74 | 123
Jeremy Roenick | 1347 | 503 | 762 | 1265 | 0.37 | 0.57 | 0.94 | 41 | 58 | 95
Dave Keon | 1417 | 486 | 769 | 1255 | 0.34 | 0.54 | 0.89 | 40 | 55 | 87
Rod Gilbert | 1156 | 470 | 779 | 1249 | 0.41 | 0.67 | 1.08 | 40 | 66 | 102
Vincent Damphousse | 1420 | 418 | 827 | 1245 | 0.29 | 0.58 | 0.88 | 32 | 59 | 86
Dean Prentice | 1566 | 527 | 717 | 1244 | 0.34 | 0.46 | 0.79 | 36 | 56 | 86
Bobby Clarke | 1185 | 348 | 895 | 1244 | 0.29 | 0.76 | 1.05 | 33 | 79 | 107
Teemu Selanne | 1096 | 560 | 680 | 1241 | 0.51 | 0.62 | 1.13 | 52 | 64 | 109
Sergei Fedorov | 1226 | 488 | 741 | 1229 | 0.4 | 0.6 | 1 | 40 | 56 | 95
Phil Housley | 1542 | 317 | 911 | 1228 | 0.21 | 0.59 | 0.8 | 24 | 60 | 76
Mike Gartner | 1480 | 633 | 593 | 1226 | 0.43 | 0.4 | 0.83 | 43 | 43 | 82
Denis Savard | 1245 | 422 | 802 | 1224 | 0.34 | 0.64 | 0.98 | 36 | 71 | 104
Milt Schmidt | 1087 | 420 | 784 | 1204 | 0.39 | 0.72 | 1.11 | 39 | 70 | 108
Bill Cowley | 910 | 370 | 825 | 1194 | 0.41 | 0.91 | 1.31 | 41 | 89 | 125
Larry Murphy | 1668 | 267 | 917 | 1183 | 0.16 | 0.55 | 0.71 | 20 | 56 | 72
Elmer Lach | 917 | 356 | 826 | 1182 | 0.39 | 0.9 | 1.29 | 38 | 88 | 123
Syd Howe | 1190 | 470 | 706 | 1176 | 0.39 | 0.59 | 0.99 | 42 | 66 | 103
Hooley Smith | 1299 | 403 | 768 | 1171 | 0.31 | 0.59 | 0.9 | 36 | 69 | 101
Frank Boucher | 1025 | 309 | 858 | 1167 | 0.3 | 0.84 | 1.14 | 33 | 88 | 117
Rod Brind'Amour | 1360 | 425 | 741 | 1166 | 0.31 | 0.55 | 0.86 | 31 | 54 | 82
Joe Nieuwendyk | 1296 | 554 | 605 | 1160 | 0.43 | 0.47 | 0.89 | 42 | 44 | 82
Theoren Fleury | 1120 | 458 | 686 | 1144 | 0.41 | 0.61 | 1.02 | 44 | 60 | 95
Bernie Nicholls | 1177 | 430 | 700 | 1129 | 0.37 | 0.59 | 0.96 | 40 | 57 | 97
Dino Ciccarelli | 1279 | 547 | 570 | 1116 | 0.43 | 0.45 | 0.87 | 41 | 46 | 84
Peter Stastny | 1002 | 391 | 724 | 1115 | 0.39 | 0.72 | 1.11 | 39 | 72 | 110
Darryl Sittler | 1131 | 451 | 656 | 1107 | 0.4 | 0.58 | 0.98 | 39 | 62 | 100
Toe Blake | 941 | 442 | 659 | 1101 | 0.47 | 0.7 | 1.17 | 46 | 64 | 108
Busher Jackson | 1087 | 479 | 612 | 1091 | 0.44 | 0.56 | 1 | 48 | 57 | 105
George Armstrong | 1368 | 426 | 664 | 1090 | 0.31 | 0.49 | 0.8 | 30 | 49 | 77
Keith Tkachuk | 1085 | 523 | 560 | 1083 | 0.48 | 0.52 | 1 | 45 | 49 | 91
Brian Leetch | 1244 | 248 | 832 | 1080 | 0.2 | 0.67 | 0.87 | 20 | 67 | 85
Alexander Mogilny | 1023 | 464 | 612 | 1076 | 0.45 | 0.6 | 1.05 | 44 | 49 | 90
Billy Harris | 1812 | 394 | 682 | 1076 | 0.22 | 0.38 | 0.59 | 27 | 45 | 70
Doug Weight | 1162 | 270 | 803 | 1073 | 0.23 | 0.69 | 0.92 | 24 | 70 | 92
Cy Denneny | 917 | 497 | 575 | 1072 | 0.54 | 0.63 | 1.17 | 57 | 78 | 129
Doug Bentley | 827 | 378 | 687 | 1065 | 0.46 | 0.83 | 1.29 | 45 | 78 | 122
Dit Clapper | 1436 | 437 | 628 | 1064 | 0.3 | 0.44 | 0.74 | 41 | 50 | 84
Bobby Orr | 700 | 293 | 764 | 1057 | 0.42 | 1.09 | 1.51 | 39 | 103 | 142
Paul Kariya | 936 | 410 | 642 | 1053 | 0.44 | 0.69 | 1.12 | 44 | 65 | 105
Max Bentley | 876 | 421 | 627 | 1048 | 0.48 | 0.72 | 1.2 | 47 | 76 | 120
Bernie Federko | 1025 | 326 | 718 | 1044 | 0.32 | 0.7 | 1.02 | 32 | 65 | 95
Doug Mohns | 1572 | 346 | 696 | 1043 | 0.22 | 0.44 | 0.66 | 32 | 48 | 78
Nicklas Lidstrom | 1280 | 223 | 819 | 1042 | 0.17 | 0.64 | 0.81 | 18 | 66 | 83
Bryan Hextall | 1302 | 470 | 571 | 1040 | 0.36 | 0.44 | 0.8 | 50 | 56 | 103
Mike Bossy | 771 | 508 | 530 | 1038 | 0.66 | 0.69 | 1.35 | 57 | 61 | 115
Pat Verbeek | 1471 | 491 | 544 | 1035 | 0.33 | 0.37 | 0.7 | 38 | 38 | 74
Michel Goulet | 1110 | 477 | 557 | 1034 | 0.43 | 0.5 | 0.93 | 47 | 51 | 97
Denis Potvin | 1089 | 284 | 738 | 1022 | 0.26 | 0.68 | 0.94 | 26 | 67 | 93
Reg Noble | 1248 | 327 | 686 | 1013 | 0.26 | 0.55 | 0.81 | 38 | 68 | 102
Ted Kennedy | 907 | 375 | 636 | 1011 | 0.41 | 0.7 | 1.12 | 42 | 66 | 100
Bert Olmstead | 995 | 269 | 742 | 1011 | 0.27 | 0.75 | 1.02 | 27 | 75 | 98
Ken Hodge | 1086 | 392 | 613 | 1005 | 0.36 | 0.56 | 0.93 | 43 | 57 | 100
Peter Forsberg | 739 | 267 | 738 | 1004 | 0.36 | 1 | 1.36 | 29 | 78 | 107
Yvan Cournoyer | 1039 | 477 | 526 | 1003 | 0.46 | 0.51 | 0.97 | 43 | 49 | 90
Glenn Anderson | 1173 | 443 | 556 | 999 | 0.38 | 0.47 | 0.85 | 41 | 48 | 88
Murray Oliver | 1253 | 352 | 644 | 996 | 0.28 | 0.51 | 0.8 | 31 | 58 | 86

Discussion
  • Peak goals refers to the average number of adjusted goals a player scored over their five best season (not necessarily consecutive).
  • Howe is so far ahead of everyone else in goal-scoring that it nearly defies description; he was in the top five in 14 different seasons. Adjusted for era, Richard and Hull join the 800-goal category while Gretzky drops down into the 700 goal club. Beliveau leaps from 507 to 702 goals.
  • Nels Stewart (who was the NHL's all-time leading goal scorer as late as 1952) soars to 649 goals.
  • If you're surprised at seeing Mikita in 3rd place, you shouldn't be. He routinely scored 80-95 points per year in the low-scoring, short-length early 1960s; this translate to an average of 131 points per year in the six seasons leading up to expansion. Throw in a few more 100+ point seasons after expansion, then nearly a full decade as a solid point-per-game player, and you end up with over 1,800 career points.
  • As expected, Jagr looks even better due to adjusted scoring. He picks up around 150 points, or nearly 10% of his career total.
  • In adjusted scoring, Sakic is 10 points behind Yzerman despite playing 161 fewer games. Even if you argue that Yzerman had a better peak (which is debatable), Sakic was definitely more consistent.
 
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Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
9,144
14,450
All-Time Adjusted Scoring Leaders (101-200)

Player|Games|Goals|Assists|Points|GPG|APG|PPG|PeakG|PeakA|PeakPts
Bill Mosienko | 937 | 421 | 575 | 996 | 0.45 | 0.61 | 1.06 | 43 | 62 | 101
Tony Amonte | 1206 | 433 | 554 | 987 | 0.36 | 0.46 | 0.82 | 42 | 49 | 88
Frank Nighbor | 924 | 281 | 706 | 987 | 0.3 | 0.76 | 1.07 | 37 | 86 | 122
Dave Taylor | 1135 | 381 | 600 | 982 | 0.34 | 0.53 | 0.87 | 36 | 54 | 90
Alex Kovalev | 1104 | 385 | 593 | 978 | 0.35 | 0.54 | 0.89 | 36 | 54 | 89
Joe Mullen | 1109 | 448 | 528 | 977 | 0.4 | 0.48 | 0.88 | 40 | 44 | 83
Syl Apps Sr | 681 | 396 | 580 | 976 | 0.58 | 0.85 | 1.43 | 44 | 72 | 113
Phil Goyette | 1070 | 281 | 692 | 973 | 0.26 | 0.65 | 0.91 | 30 | 67 | 95
Bobby Rousseau | 1047 | 324 | 646 | 970 | 0.31 | 0.62 | 0.93 | 35 | 65 | 97
Chris Chelios | 1660 | 174 | 789 | 962 | 0.1 | 0.48 | 0.58 | 14 | 51 | 61
Eric Lindros | 790 | 390 | 570 | 960 | 0.49 | 0.72 | 1.22 | 44 | 60 | 103
Bill Gadsby | 1493 | 198 | 760 | 958 | 0.13 | 0.51 | 0.64 | 17 | 64 | 78
Peter Bondra | 1114 | 526 | 429 | 955 | 0.47 | 0.39 | 0.86 | 49 | 38 | 82
Pit Martin | 1181 | 366 | 587 | 954 | 0.31 | 0.5 | 0.81 | 32 | 55 | 85
Lanny McDonald | 1141 | 451 | 500 | 951 | 0.4 | 0.44 | 0.83 | 44 | 48 | 89
Daniel Alfredsson | 853 | 350 | 601 | 951 | 0.41 | 0.7 | 1.11 | 37 | 60 | 97
Dale Hunter | 1459 | 290 | 660 | 950 | 0.2 | 0.45 | 0.65 | 23 | 48 | 67
Sweeney Schriner | 819 | 418 | 528 | 946 | 0.51 | 0.64 | 1.15 | 47 | 67 | 108
Bob Nevin | 1243 | 384 | 561 | 945 | 0.31 | 0.45 | 0.76 | 36 | 49 | 81
Bobby Smith | 1102 | 313 | 631 | 944 | 0.28 | 0.57 | 0.86 | 29 | 58 | 85
Dickie Moore | 840 | 374 | 568 | 943 | 0.45 | 0.68 | 1.12 | 47 | 71 | 113
Brian Bellows | 1232 | 436 | 503 | 939 | 0.35 | 0.41 | 0.76 | 37 | 40 | 76
Markus Naslund | 1043 | 399 | 538 | 936 | 0.38 | 0.52 | 0.9 | 45 | 62 | 103
Sid Abel | 850 | 329 | 605 | 934 | 0.39 | 0.71 | 1.1 | 42 | 71 | 110
Steve Thomas | 1276 | 405 | 528 | 933 | 0.32 | 0.41 | 0.73 | 33 | 44 | 75
Steve Larmer | 1056 | 393 | 539 | 932 | 0.37 | 0.51 | 0.88 | 38 | 52 | 85
Bob Pulford | 1228 | 390 | 541 | 931 | 0.32 | 0.44 | 0.76 | 33 | 46 | 77
Charlie Conacher | 796 | 447 | 483 | 930 | 0.56 | 0.61 | 1.17 | 63 | 53 | 110
Rick Middleton | 1030 | 401 | 528 | 929 | 0.39 | 0.51 | 0.9 | 40 | 52 | 91
Brad Park | 1154 | 205 | 724 | 929 | 0.18 | 0.63 | 0.81 | 20 | 59 | 78
Greg Adams | 1655 | 405 | 524 | 929 | 0.24 | 0.32 | 0.56 | 36 | 48 | 83
Pat LaFontaine | 893 | 419 | 507 | 926 | 0.47 | 0.57 | 1.04 | 42 | 51 | 92
Marty Barry | 885 | 393 | 532 | 925 | 0.44 | 0.6 | 1.05 | 48 | 63 | 102
Kirk Muller | 1393 | 329 | 591 | 920 | 0.24 | 0.42 | 0.66 | 29 | 50 | 77
Larry Robinson | 1422 | 188 | 731 | 919 | 0.13 | 0.51 | 0.65 | 15 | 58 | 73
Rick Tocchet | 1180 | 413 | 506 | 918 | 0.35 | 0.43 | 0.78 | 34 | 40 | 74
John LeClair | 998 | 431 | 482 | 913 | 0.43 | 0.48 | 0.92 | 48 | 51 | 98
Jacques Lemaire | 894 | 381 | 532 | 912 | 0.43 | 0.59 | 1.02 | 38 | 56 | 92
Doug Harvey | 1315 | 133 | 779 | 912 | 0.1 | 0.59 | 0.69 | 11 | 66 | 75
Cliff Ronning | 1169 | 303 | 609 | 912 | 0.26 | 0.52 | 0.78 | 24 | 49 | 71
Gary Roberts | 1207 | 420 | 491 | 911 | 0.35 | 0.41 | 0.76 | 37 | 37 | 72
Lorne Carr | 978 | 395 | 510 | 905 | 0.4 | 0.52 | 0.93 | 43 | 54 | 95
Phil Watson | 960 | 273 | 631 | 905 | 0.28 | 0.66 | 0.94 | 29 | 73 | 97
Brian Propp | 1037 | 371 | 533 | 904 | 0.36 | 0.51 | 0.87 | 35 | 47 | 81
Woody Dumart | 1089 | 397 | 507 | 904 | 0.37 | 0.47 | 0.83 | 41 | 50 | 87
Ray Ferraro | 1303 | 395 | 506 | 901 | 0.3 | 0.39 | 0.69 | 32 | 40 | 71
Butch Goring | 1144 | 357 | 541 | 898 | 0.31 | 0.47 | 0.79 | 32 | 50 | 80
Owen Nolan | 1102 | 405 | 492 | 897 | 0.37 | 0.45 | 0.81 | 40 | 45 | 83
Trevor Linden | 1420 | 371 | 524 | 895 | 0.26 | 0.37 | 0.63 | 30 | 38 | 66
Ralph Backstrom | 1165 | 369 | 525 | 894 | 0.32 | 0.45 | 0.77 | 35 | 45 | 77
Claude Provost | 1158 | 364 | 529 | 893 | 0.31 | 0.46 | 0.77 | 36 | 53 | 88
Scott Stevens | 1684 | 180 | 710 | 890 | 0.11 | 0.42 | 0.53 | 15 | 51 | 62
Don McKenney | 931 | 336 | 553 | 889 | 0.36 | 0.59 | 0.95 | 37 | 59 | 94
Mush March | 1306 | 308 | 579 | 887 | 0.24 | 0.44 | 0.68 | 28 | 53 | 76
Johnny Gottselig | 1022 | 351 | 531 | 882 | 0.34 | 0.52 | 0.86 | 36 | 53 | 85
Bill Cook | 843 | 443 | 437 | 881 | 0.53 | 0.52 | 1.04 | 57 | 53 | 102
Alexei Yashin | 881 | 362 | 517 | 879 | 0.41 | 0.59 | 1 | 40 | 53 | 92
Scott Mellanby | 1472 | 365 | 511 | 876 | 0.25 | 0.35 | 0.6 | 27 | 36 | 60
Paul Thompson | 1028 | 329 | 546 | 874 | 0.32 | 0.53 | 0.85 | 41 | 61 | 100
Roy Conacher | 696 | 423 | 450 | 873 | 0.61 | 0.65 | 1.25 | 52 | 63 | 108
Jarome Iginla | 860 | 406 | 464 | 871 | 0.47 | 0.54 | 1.01 | 45 | 50 | 95
Jason Arnott | 999 | 353 | 517 | 870 | 0.35 | 0.52 | 0.87 | 30 | 45 | 70
King Clancy | 1217 | 275 | 593 | 868 | 0.23 | 0.49 | 0.71 | 27 | 59 | 81
Joe Thornton | 754 | 259 | 609 | 868 | 0.34 | 0.81 | 1.15 | 32 | 81 | 110
Vic Hadfield | 1097 | 372 | 491 | 864 | 0.34 | 0.45 | 0.79 | 33 | 48 | 81
Bill Barber | 929 | 390 | 471 | 861 | 0.42 | 0.51 | 0.93 | 40 | 47 | 84
Eric Nesterenko | 1395 | 354 | 505 | 860 | 0.25 | 0.36 | 0.62 | 25 | 37 | 59
Sergei Zubov | 1082 | 161 | 698 | 860 | 0.15 | 0.65 | 0.79 | 14 | 58 | 70
Don Marshall | 1346 | 372 | 486 | 858 | 0.28 | 0.36 | 0.64 | 34 | 41 | 73
Neal Broten | 1148 | 256 | 600 | 857 | 0.22 | 0.52 | 0.75 | 26 | 57 | 81
Garry Unger | 1151 | 419 | 434 | 853 | 0.36 | 0.38 | 0.74 | 41 | 42 | 82
Bill Guerin | 1138 | 413 | 436 | 849 | 0.36 | 0.38 | 0.75 | 41 | 41 | 80
Herb Cain | 961 | 393 | 455 | 848 | 0.41 | 0.47 | 0.88 | 45 | 51 | 88
Ivan Boldirev | 1084 | 334 | 513 | 847 | 0.31 | 0.47 | 0.78 | 31 | 44 | 73
Dick Duff | 1181 | 396 | 445 | 841 | 0.34 | 0.38 | 0.71 | 37 | 37 | 71
Ray Whitney | 936 | 301 | 536 | 837 | 0.32 | 0.57 | 0.89 | 31 | 55 | 84
Wayne Cashman | 1068 | 271 | 563 | 834 | 0.25 | 0.53 | 0.78 | 27 | 52 | 79
Dennis Maruk | 910 | 319 | 513 | 832 | 0.35 | 0.56 | 0.91 | 38 | 55 | 90
Pavel Bure | 731 | 443 | 389 | 831 | 0.61 | 0.53 | 1.14 | 55 | 46 | 99
Gary Suter | 1189 | 191 | 640 | 831 | 0.16 | 0.54 | 0.7 | 17 | 53 | 69
Vyacheslav Kozlov | 1076 | 336 | 492 | 828 | 0.31 | 0.46 | 0.77 | 30 | 48 | 74
John MacLean | 1236 | 393 | 431 | 824 | 0.32 | 0.35 | 0.67 | 36 | 35 | 69
Clint Smith | 794 | 300 | 524 | 824 | 0.38 | 0.66 | 1.04 | 39 | 66 | 102
Alex Zhamnov | 838 | 270 | 553 | 823 | 0.32 | 0.66 | 0.98 | 30 | 56 | 84
Tom Lysiak | 944 | 267 | 550 | 818 | 0.28 | 0.58 | 0.87 | 27 | 53 | 77
Georges Boucher | 1130 | 240 | 576 | 815 | 0.21 | 0.51 | 0.72 | 28 | 73 | 98
Tomas Sandstrom | 1027 | 368 | 446 | 815 | 0.36 | 0.43 | 0.79 | 35 | 40 | 73
Pavol Demitra | 761 | 308 | 507 | 814 | 0.4 | 0.67 | 1.07 | 37 | 61 | 98
Bobby Holik | 1287 | 338 | 476 | 813 | 0.26 | 0.37 | 0.63 | 29 | 43 | 71
Bill Thoms | 930 | 287 | 526 | 813 | 0.31 | 0.57 | 0.87 | 34 | 59 | 92
Stephane Richer | 1121 | 403 | 408 | 811 | 0.36 | 0.36 | 0.72 | 38 | 33 | 69
Pete Mahovlich | 924 | 290 | 520 | 810 | 0.31 | 0.56 | 0.88 | 35 | 60 | 88
Jean Pronovost | 1039 | 386 | 418 | 804 | 0.37 | 0.4 | 0.77 | 40 | 40 | 77
Andrew Cassels | 1047 | 207 | 597 | 804 | 0.2 | 0.57 | 0.77 | 20 | 56 | 74
Ziggy Palffy | 707 | 350 | 454 | 804 | 0.49 | 0.64 | 1.14 | 42 | 53 | 93
Harry Watson | 1048 | 393 | 409 | 802 | 0.37 | 0.39 | 0.76 | 38 | 38 | 74
Ron Stewart | 1544 | 391 | 406 | 798 | 0.25 | 0.26 | 0.52 | 26 | 34 | 58
Babe Siebert | 1063 | 274 | 522 | 796 | 0.26 | 0.49 | 0.75 | 29 | 53 | 77
Camille Henry | 842 | 399 | 394 | 793 | 0.47 | 0.47 | 0.94 | 45 | 42 | 83
Bun Cook | 842 | 309 | 483 | 792 | 0.37 | 0.57 | 0.94 | 36 | 58 | 89
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,144
14,450
Highest Peak Value, adjusted scoring (1-100)

Player|PeakG|PeakA|PeakP
Wayne Gretzky | 66 | 127 | 186
Phil Esposito | 66 | 86 | 151
Gordie Howe | 69 | 84 | 151
Bobby Orr | 39 | 103 | 142
Mario Lemieux | 58 | 83 | 140
Stan Mikita | 52 | 87 | 136
Bobby Hull | 73 | 65 | 133
Jaromir Jagr | 52 | 80 | 131
Guy Lafleur | 53 | 79 | 131
Ted Lindsay | 51 | 85 | 131
Jean Beliveau | 54 | 79 | 130
Cy Denneny | 57 | 78 | 129
Marcel Dionne | 50 | 77 | 125
Bill Cowley | 41 | 89 | 125
Andy Bathgate | 46 | 82 | 124
Howie Morenz | 54 | 74 | 123
Elmer Lach | 38 | 88 | 123
Maurice Richard | 70 | 60 | 122
Frank Nighbor | 37 | 86 | 122
Doug Bentley | 45 | 78 | 122
Max Bentley | 47 | 76 | 120
Frank Boucher | 33 | 88 | 117
Bryan Trottier | 41 | 76 | 115
Mike Bossy | 57 | 61 | 115
Norm Ullman | 48 | 66 | 113
Joe Sakic | 47 | 74 | 113
Bernie Geoffrion | 52 | 66 | 113
Syl Apps Sr | 44 | 72 | 113
Dickie Moore | 47 | 71 | 113
Joe Thornton | 32 | 81 | 110
Peter Stastny | 39 | 72 | 110
Sid Abel | 42 | 71 | 110
Charlie Conacher | 63 | 53 | 110
Newsy Lalonde | 45 | 64 | 110
Jean Ratelle | 41 | 71 | 109
Steve Yzerman | 49 | 66 | 109
Henri Richard | 38 | 73 | 109
Teemu Selanne | 52 | 64 | 109
Frank Mahovlich | 53 | 59 | 109
Toe Blake | 46 | 64 | 108
Sweeney Schriner | 47 | 67 | 108
Milt Schmidt | 39 | 70 | 108
Paul Coffey | 32 | 77 | 108
Jari Kurri | 51 | 58 | 108
Roy Conacher | 52 | 63 | 108
Alex Delvecchio | 39 | 73 | 107
Peter Forsberg | 29 | 78 | 107
Bobby Clarke | 33 | 79 | 107
Aurel Joliat | 48 | 65 | 106
Adam Oates | 26 | 82 | 105
Busher Jackson | 48 | 57 | 105
Paul Kariya | 44 | 65 | 105
Gordie Drillon | 51 | 56 | 104
John Bucyk | 44 | 63 | 104
Denis Savard | 36 | 71 | 104
Mark Recchi | 38 | 69 | 104
Mark Messier | 40 | 71 | 104
Joe Primeau | 23 | 81 | 104
Bryan Hextall | 50 | 56 | 103
Babe Dye | 58 | 46 | 103
Markus Naslund | 45 | 62 | 103
Syd Howe | 42 | 66 | 103
Eric Lindros | 44 | 60 | 103
Clint Smith | 39 | 66 | 102
Bill Cook | 57 | 53 | 102
Nels Stewart | 55 | 52 | 102
Reg Noble | 38 | 68 | 102
Rod Gilbert | 40 | 66 | 102
Marty Barry | 48 | 63 | 102
Brett Hull | 62 | 51 | 102
Dale Hawerchuk | 41 | 67 | 102
Gilbert Perreault | 40 | 66 | 101
Hooley Smith | 36 | 69 | 101
Ron Francis | 28 | 75 | 101
Bill Mosienko | 43 | 62 | 101
Darryl Sittler | 39 | 62 | 100
Ted Kennedy | 42 | 66 | 100
Lynn Patrick | 42 | 59 | 100
Ken Hodge | 43 | 57 | 100
Paul Thompson | 41 | 61 | 100
Pavel Bure | 55 | 46 | 99
Mats Sundin | 41 | 59 | 99
Doug Gilmour | 31 | 72 | 99
Billy Taylor | 29 | 70 | 99
Georges Boucher | 28 | 73 | 98
Bert Olmstead | 27 | 75 | 98
Mike Modano | 41 | 61 | 98
Pavol Demitra | 37 | 61 | 98
John LeClair | 48 | 51 | 98
Bobby Rousseau | 35 | 65 | 97
Michel Goulet | 47 | 51 | 97
Paul Ronty | 28 | 68 | 97
Bernie Nicholls | 40 | 57 | 97
Phil Watson | 29 | 73 | 97
Daniel Alfredsson | 37 | 60 | 97
Marian Hossa | 43 | 55 | 96
Luc Robitaille | 46 | 53 | 96
Theoren Fleury | 44 | 60 | 95
Bernie Federko | 32 | 65 | 95
Jeremy Roenick | 41 | 58 | 95

Discussion

  • Note the absence of Turgeon, Andreychuk, Gartner, Ciccarelli, Nieuwendyk and others who had long, consistent careers but were rarely (or never) elite offensive players. Also note the huge discrepancies for Robitaille (29th in career points but only 97th in peak value and Francis (7th in career points but 74th in peak value).
  • Conversely, this metric really helps players who had dominant peaks but short careers. Bobby Orr soars from 82nd in career scoring to 4th (!) in peak value; Frank Nighbor jumps from 103rd to 19th; Syl Apps rises from 107th to 28th. The most extreme example might be Newsy Lalonde who is 449th in career scoring but ranks 34th in peak value.
  • Joe Thornton is already in the top thirty according to this metric -- he's been a truly stunning, consistent playmaker over past several years and, if not for a weak playoff resume, would likely already be a lock for the Hall of Fame.
  • This statistic shows how dominant Gordie Howe really was. Trapped in a low-scoring era with shorter season lengths, Howe's raw statistics are artificially distorted. In his best year he scored 95 points when only a single player (his linemate Ted Lindsay) scored more than 61 points -- this works out to 168 adjusted points, more points than any player other than Gretzky scored in a single season.
 
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Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,144
14,450
Total Milestone Seasons (1-100)

Player|Goals|Assists|Points|Total
Wayne Gretzky | 5 | 16 | 16 | 37
Gordie Howe | 11 | 6 | 19 | 36
Mario Lemieux | 5 | 7 | 10 | 22
Phil Esposito | 7 | 7 | 8 | 22
Bobby Hull | 9 | | 10 | 19
Maurice Richard | 8 | | 10 | 18
Jaromir Jagr | 5 | 4 | 9 | 18
Jean Beliveau | 4 | 5 | 9 | 18
Stan Mikita | 3 | 6 | 9 | 18
Andy Bathgate | 1 | 7 | 9 | 17
Frank Boucher | | 7 | 7 | 14
Guy Lafleur | 4 | 4 | 6 | 14
Ted Lindsay | 3 | 3 | 7 | 13
Marcel Dionne | 3 | 4 | 6 | 13
Joe Sakic | 1 | 2 | 9 | 12
Mike Bossy | 5 | | 7 | 12
Bill Cowley | | 5 | 7 | 12
Bobby Orr | | 6 | 6 | 12
Cy Denneny | 4 | 3 | 5 | 12
Elmer Lach | 1 | 4 | 6 | 11
Doug Bentley | 2 | 2 | 6 | 10
Frank Mahovlich | 5 | | 5 | 10
Howie Morenz | 4 | 1 | 5 | 10
Max Bentley | 1 | 4 | 5 | 10
Adam Oates | | 6 | 4 | 10
Frank Nighbor | | 4 | 5 | 9
Teemu Selanne | 5 | | 4 | 9
Steve Yzerman | 3 | | 5 | 8
Toe Blake | 2 | 1 | 5 | 8
Sid Abel | 2 | 2 | 4 | 8
Joe Thornton | | 4 | 4 | 8
Paul Coffey | | 4 | 4 | 8
Charlie Conacher | 5 | | 3 | 8
Newsy Lalonde | 3 | 2 | 3 | 8
Babe Dye | 6 | | 2 | 8
Roy Conacher | 5 | 1 | 2 | 8
Jean Ratelle | | 1 | 6 | 7
Bernie Geoffrion | 2 | | 5 | 7
Alex Delvecchio | | 2 | 5 | 7
Bryan Trottier | | 2 | 5 | 7
Peter Stastny | | 2 | 5 | 7
Peter Forsberg | | 3 | 4 | 7
Brett Hull | 4 | | 3 | 7
Bryan Hextall | 3 | 1 | 3 | 7
Dickie Moore | 2 | 2 | 3 | 7
Norm Ullman | 1 | | 5 | 6
Aurel Joliat | 2 | | 4 | 6
Jari Kurri | 2 | | 4 | 6
Denis Savard | | 2 | 4 | 6
Syl Apps Sr | | 2 | 4 | 6
Sweeney Schriner | 1 | 2 | 3 | 6
Bobby Clarke | | 3 | 3 | 6
Joe Primeau | | 3 | 3 | 6
Bill Cook | 4 | | 2 | 6
Nels Stewart | 4 | | 2 | 6
Busher Jackson | 1 | | 4 | 5
Billy Boucher | 2 | | 3 | 5
Joe Malone | 2 | | 3 | 5
Gordie Drillon | 1 | 1 | 3 | 5
Milt Schmidt | 1 | 1 | 3 | 5
Henri Richard | | 2 | 3 | 5
Ron Francis | | 2 | 3 | 5
Jarome Iginla | 3 | | 2 | 5
Marty Barry | 2 | 1 | 2 | 5
Art Chapman | | 3 | 2 | 5
Bert Olmstead | | 3 | 2 | 5
Pavel Bure | 4 | | 1 | 5
Ace Bailey | 1 | | 3 | 4
Bill Thoms | 1 | | 3 | 4
Dany Heatley | 1 | | 3 | 4
John Bucyk | 1 | | 3 | 4
Kenny Wharram | 1 | | 3 | 4
Lynn Patrick | 1 | | 3 | 4
Markus Naslund | 1 | | 3 | 4
Clint Smith | | 1 | 3 | 4
Hooley Smith | | 1 | 3 | 4
Rod Gilbert | | 1 | 3 | 4
John LeClair | 2 | | 2 | 4
Bill Mosienko | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Cecil Dillon | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Reg Noble | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Buddy O'Connor | | 2 | 2 | 4
Doug Gilmour | | 2 | 2 | 4
Harry Cameron | | 2 | 2 | 4
Jack Darragh | | 2 | 2 | 4
Mark Messier | | 2 | 2 | 4
Pete Mahovlich | | 2 | 2 | 4
Herb Cain | 2 | 1 | 1 | 4
Dale Hawerchuk | | | 3 | 3
Gilbert Perreault | | | 3 | 3
Ken Hodge | | | 3 | 3
Mike Modano | | | 3 | 3
Paul Kariya | | | 3 | 3
Pavol Demitra | | | 3 | 3
Alex Ovechkin | 1 | | 2 | 3
Alexei Yashin | 1 | | 2 | 3
Bernie Nicholls | 1 | | 2 | 3
Bronco Horvath | 1 | | 2 | 3
Gaye Stewart | 1 | | 2 | 3
Larry Aurie | 1 | | 2 | 3
Lorne Carr | 1 | | 2 | 3
Mats Sundin | 1 | | 2 | 3
Paul Thompson | 1 | | 2 | 3
Rick MacLeish | 1 | | 2 | 3
Theoren Fleury | 1 | | 2 | 3
Todd Bertuzzi | 1 | | 2 | 3
Vincent Lecavalier | 1 | | 2 | 3
Billy Taylor | | 1 | 2 | 3
Bobby Rousseau | | 1 | 2 | 3
Darryl Sittler | | 1 | 2 | 3
Jason Allison | | 1 | 2 | 3
Mark Recchi | | 1 | 2 | 3
Martin St. Louis | | 1 | 2 | 3
Paul Ronty | | 1 | 2 | 3
Sidney Crosby | | 1 | 2 | 3
Ted Kennedy | | 1 | 2 | 3
Ilya Kovalchuk | 2 | | 1 | 3
Mickey Redmond | 2 | | 1 | 3
Tony Amonte | 2 | | 1 | 3
Punch Broadbent | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Phil Watson | | 2 | 1 | 3

Discussion
  • This table shows the total 50+ goal seasons, 75+ assist seasons, and 100+ point seasons and is fairly strongly correlated with the chart above (showing highest peak value)
  • I like how Jagr, Beliveau and Mikita all ended up at the same level. A lot of modern fans (correctly) note that Jagr was stuck in a low scoring era but fail to acknowledge that the same was true for Mikita and (especially) Beliveau.
  • Despite Hull and (especially) Richard's relatively mediocre playmaking, they each ended up with ten 100+ point seasons.
  • This list is a testament to Sakic's quiet consistency and versatility. Despite having only one adjusted 50-goal season (2001) and two adjusted 75-assist seasons (1995 and 2002) he had nine 100+ point seasons (1991, 1995, 1996, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2007). He's one of the most balanced and well-rounded elite scorers in NHL history.
  • Crosby & Ovechkin each have three "milestone" seasons through three years...
 
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kruezer

Registered User
Apr 21, 2002
6,721
276
North Bay
Great work HO, as always.

With regard to the averaging of second through fourth in goals, seems like a solid way of doing it, I keep trying to think of a solid way to do adjusted scoring using the median NHL scorer and benchmarking from there (and maybe compare the median to the changes in GPG of the league, just to see if it correlates) but I haven't perfected anything.

Interesting results though. Gretzky still killed at his peak.

I would have intuitively thought this would have helped Mario and hurt Howe more than it did, but it makes Howe look amazing, he gains more of my respect everyday.

Beliveau's PPG is pretty eyepopping as well. Could you post the top one hundred sorted by PPG as well? That would be interesting to see.

Also: I just had another thought, maybe it would be worth pulling out the defensemen and correlating themselves to each other instead of to the league? pre and post Orr defensemen just can't really compare offensively otherwise.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,125
7,208
Regina, SK
Nice work as usual, HO. At first glance I think it is an improvement over BM's existing method. However, I think it still inherits what I feel is the biggest problem with that system - I posted this in my ATD series thread but he must have missed it:

- I like your formula a lot, but I do have concerns that it is a form of "adjusted points" which can be misleading. Now I like that adjusted points take the era into account by adjusting for scoring levels, roster sizes, and assists per goal. But, if you compiled adjusted points for every player in history and posted a top-100 list, it would look fairly similar to the current top-100 list of actual points. The reason for this is that there is a built-in advantage for players who played in leagues with more teams.

In a 21-team NHL there are 63 first line forwards who all get first-line minutes and, aside from the worst ones, in the 1980's, most had a good shot at 75 points. If that league was 6 teams, not only do some of those forwards not have jobs at all, some are on 2nd lines and some have to check just to stay in the league. But they're still better than players who couldn't break in.

A standard top-50 scorers list from the 80's would have the usual suspects with 110+ points, a few who stand out with 95+, and then a whole ton of players scoring 70-95. http://www.hockey-reference.com/leag...5_skaters.html In 1985, the player in 20th spot had 70% what the 2nd place scorer had. 30th place had 62%, 40th place had 55% and 50th place had 53%. In 1955, http://www.hockey-reference.com/leag...5_skaters.html 20th, 30th, 40th, and 50th had 54%, 46%, 39%, and 32% of the 2nd leading scorer's total. Under your formula, wouldn't the player in 20th place in 1955 get more or less the same "score" as the player in 50th place in 1985?

Your thoughts?
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,144
14,450
Could you post the top one hundred sorted by PPG as well? That would be interesting to see.

Player|GPG|APG|PPG
Wayne Gretzky | 0.52 | 1.22 | 1.74
Mario Lemieux | 0.66 | 1.06 | 1.72
Newsy Lalonde | 0.63 | 0.89 | 1.52
Bobby Orr | 0.42 | 1.09 | 1.51
Sidney Crosby | 0.46 | 0.97 | 1.44
Syl Apps Sr | 0.58 | 0.85 | 1.43
Gordie Howe | 0.56 | 0.84 | 1.41
Jean Beliveau | 0.54 | 0.85 | 1.4
Bobby Hull | 0.68 | 0.68 | 1.36
Peter Forsberg | 0.36 | 1 | 1.36
Mike Bossy | 0.66 | 0.69 | 1.35
Phil Esposito | 0.57 | 0.77 | 1.34
Jaromir Jagr | 0.51 | 0.82 | 1.33
Maurice Richard | 0.68 | 0.64 | 1.32
Bill Cowley | 0.41 | 0.91 | 1.31
Alex Ovechkin | 0.66 | 0.65 | 1.31
Gordie Drillon | 0.62 | 0.68 | 1.3
Elmer Lach | 0.39 | 0.9 | 1.29
Doug Bentley | 0.46 | 0.83 | 1.29
Bernie Geoffrion | 0.56 | 0.7 | 1.26
Roy Conacher | 0.61 | 0.65 | 1.25
Stan Mikita | 0.44 | 0.81 | 1.25
Dany Heatley | 0.55 | 0.69 | 1.24
Marcel Dionne | 0.48 | 0.75 | 1.23
Joe Sakic | 0.45 | 0.78 | 1.23
Eric Lindros | 0.49 | 0.72 | 1.22
Max Bentley | 0.48 | 0.72 | 1.2
Andy Bathgate | 0.4 | 0.8 | 1.19
Howie Morenz | 0.5 | 0.7 | 1.19
Jason Spezza | 0.38 | 0.81 | 1.19
Toe Blake | 0.47 | 0.7 | 1.17
Charlie Conacher | 0.56 | 0.61 | 1.17
Cy Denneny | 0.54 | 0.63 | 1.17
Joe Primeau | 0.24 | 0.92 | 1.16
Sweeney Schriner | 0.51 | 0.64 | 1.15
Joe Thornton | 0.34 | 0.81 | 1.15
Guy Lafleur | 0.45 | 0.69 | 1.14
Frank Boucher | 0.3 | 0.84 | 1.14
Pavel Bure | 0.61 | 0.53 | 1.14
Ziggy Palffy | 0.49 | 0.64 | 1.14
Teemu Selanne | 0.51 | 0.62 | 1.13
Ilya Kovalchuk | 0.59 | 0.54 | 1.13
Paul Kariya | 0.44 | 0.69 | 1.12
Ted Lindsay | 0.45 | 0.67 | 1.12
Dickie Moore | 0.45 | 0.68 | 1.12
Harry Cameron | 0.36 | 0.76 | 1.12
Bobby Bauer | 0.47 | 0.65 | 1.12
Frank Mahovlich | 0.51 | 0.6 | 1.12
Ted Kennedy | 0.41 | 0.7 | 1.12
Daniel Alfredsson | 0.41 | 0.7 | 1.11
Peter Stastny | 0.39 | 0.72 | 1.11
Kent Nilsson | 0.4 | 0.71 | 1.11
Steve Yzerman | 0.42 | 0.69 | 1.11
Milt Schmidt | 0.39 | 0.72 | 1.11
Sid Abel | 0.39 | 0.71 | 1.1
Nels Stewart | 0.56 | 0.54 | 1.1
Billy Taylor | 0.31 | 0.78 | 1.09
Brett Hull | 0.56 | 0.53 | 1.09
Pavel Datsyuk | 0.34 | 0.75 | 1.09
Rod Gilbert | 0.41 | 0.67 | 1.08
Norm Ullman | 0.41 | 0.66 | 1.07
Pavol Demitra | 0.4 | 0.67 | 1.07
Alex Delvecchio | 0.36 | 0.71 | 1.07
Frank Nighbor | 0.3 | 0.76 | 1.07
Gilbert Perreault | 0.39 | 0.68 | 1.07
Mats Sundin | 0.43 | 0.63 | 1.06
Bill Mosienko | 0.45 | 0.61 | 1.06
Jean Ratelle | 0.39 | 0.67 | 1.06
Adam Oates | 0.24 | 0.82 | 1.06
Marian Hossa | 0.46 | 0.59 | 1.06
Joe Malone | 0.56 | 0.5 | 1.06
Alexander Mogilny | 0.45 | 0.6 | 1.05
Henri Richard | 0.34 | 0.71 | 1.05
Bobby Clarke | 0.29 | 0.76 | 1.05
Jack Darragh | 0.29 | 0.76 | 1.05
Marty Barry | 0.44 | 0.6 | 1.05
Bill Cook | 0.53 | 0.52 | 1.04
Dale Hawerchuk | 0.37 | 0.67 | 1.04
John Bucyk | 0.4 | 0.64 | 1.04
Clint Smith | 0.38 | 0.66 | 1.04
Pat LaFontaine | 0.47 | 0.57 | 1.04
Bryan Trottier | 0.36 | 0.67 | 1.03
Henrik Zetterberg | 0.44 | 0.58 | 1.03
Brad Richards | 0.29 | 0.73 | 1.03
Alex Tanguay | 0.31 | 0.71 | 1.03
Buddy O'Connor | 0.32 | 0.7 | 1.02
Ron Francis | 0.29 | 0.73 | 1.02
Mark Messier | 0.36 | 0.67 | 1.02
Bud Poile | 0.43 | 0.6 | 1.02
Theoren Fleury | 0.41 | 0.61 | 1.02
Jacques Lemaire | 0.43 | 0.59 | 1.02
Aurel Joliat | 0.44 | 0.58 | 1.02
Bernie Federko | 0.32 | 0.7 | 1.02
Mike Modano | 0.4 | 0.62 | 1.02
Bert Olmstead | 0.27 | 0.75 | 1.02
Lynn Patrick | 0.39 | 0.62 | 1.01
Mark Recchi | 0.36 | 0.65 | 1.01
Pierre Turgeon | 0.38 | 0.64 | 1.01
Jarome Iginla | 0.47 | 0.54 | 1.01
Paul Ronty | 0.28 | 0.73 | 1.01

Discussion
  • Even after taking into account that Gretzky spent more time in a higher-scoring era, he still has the edge of Lemieux in PPG.
  • Crosby (5th) and Ovechkin (16th) are off to pretty decent starts to their careers.

Also: I just had another thought, maybe it would be worth pulling out the defensemen and correlating themselves to each other instead of to the league? pre and post Orr defensemen just can't really compare offensively otherwise.

That would be useful, but unfortunately I don't have enough data to do this (yet).

Interesting results though. Gretzky still killed at his peak.

He has the top six single seasons in NHL history (from 1982 to 1987, he scored 180, 181, 192, 186, 184 and 188 adjusted points).

The only players with multiple 150+ point seasons are Orr (2), Howe (3), Esposito (2) and Gretzky (8).
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,271
2,807
Great work HO. I like this system, it definitely catches some things that simply adjusting for league scoring level doesn't.

I take the average of second through fourth place in goals. My rationale is that if you average a few top spots, the result is unlikely to be skewed by a single really strong or weak performance from whoever finishes in 2nd.

I agree that this is better than benchmarking to 2nd place only. I've run adjusted stats in a similar way before (but only for individual cases) and my preference was for a benchmark of 4rd through 7th or something like that, in case there are a few superstars in the league. This doesn't work as well in the early NHL when there were only a few top scorers, so the 2nd-4th average is probably best for comparing all of NHL history.

Then I add goals and assists together to get total adjusted points.

I think this is my main quibble with the method. Why not adjust for points in the same way as you adjusted for goals and assists? It seems like you are just introducing more error into the calculation of points by making it the sum of goals and assists.

I can understand if you wanted to keep adjusted goals and adjusted assists summing to adjusted points, although I wouldn't agree, but the peak rates appear to have points calculated separately, not as a sum of peak goals and peak assists.

Also: I just had another thought, maybe it would be worth pulling out the defensemen and correlating themselves to each other instead of to the league? pre and post Orr defensemen just can't really compare offensively otherwise.

I calculated numbers for a few defensemen like this in the top 100 project, and I agree that it's certainly an interesting way of calculating defensemen scoring. As I recall, Orr pretty much breaks the system, scoring 120 points in 1970 when the 2nd place defenseman scored 44.

Nice work as usual, HO. At first glance I think it is an improvement over BM's existing method. However, I think it still inherits what I feel is the biggest problem with that system - I posted this in my ATD series thread but he must have missed it:



Your thoughts?

I'll be interested to see what HO says about this but for now here are my thoughts.

I don't think it's possible to set up an adjusted scoring system that accounts for the number of scoring line spots available in the league.

"Jim Pappin scored 32 points in 1967, but in 1993 with 24 teams he would have been a 1st line winger and scored 88 points."

"Miroslav Satan scored 75 points in 2003, but in 1964 he would have played in the AHL and been an occasional call-up, scoring 5 points in 15 games for the Detroit Red Wings."

OK, but seriously, if you think that the 10th best player over time is always at about the same level, and the 50th best player over time is always at about the same level, I don't think any adjusted points scoring system will get you there. You're better off just looking at ranking within the league (as I believe you do.) I think this adjusted points system adds a lot more than league rank does when evaluating players who were among the top scorers in the league, and especially in separating the Gretzkys from the Schriners among the league leaders. Of course there's still a ton of context to take into account, but that's the same with any stat - stats can only approach measuring the player's performance, and will never do so exactly.
 
Last edited:

raleh

Registered User
Oct 17, 2005
1,764
9
Dartmouth, NS
Well done, HO. What I think is the most interesting aspect is how high up all the lists Mikita is. The more info I get about him the more I start to realize that he's probably the front runner for the raleh underrated award (see my original top100 list).
 

FissionFire

Registered User
Dec 22, 2006
12,606
1,136
Las Vegas, NV
www.redwingscentral.com
I like seeing Syd Howe placing pretty well on the lists. Not sure if the overall opinion on him has gone up lately (it seemed pretty low in ATD9) but I feel he's arguably the most underrated player around here.

Also love seeing Gordie Howe's showing. I'm on of the few who feels he deserved to be #1 on the Top 100 list and this is just something else for me to use in that debate.

Would it be possible to compile something like this for the WHA as well? Might be useful for evaluating some of the players who were in both leagues.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,144
14,450
I agree that this is better than benchmarking to 2nd place only. I've run adjusted stats in a similar way before (but only for individual cases) and my preference was for a benchmark of 4rd through 7th or something like that, in case there are a few superstars in the league. This doesn't work as well in the early NHL when there were only a few top scorers, so the 2nd-4th average is probably best for comparing all of NHL history.

Good point. I think I started looking at 3rd through 7th, or something like that, but the numbers didn't look right for the early years. As an extreme example it looks like there were only 26 regular skaters in the NHL in 1918, and going down as low as 7th place made the top scorers that year look unrealistically good.

I think this is my main quibble with the method. Why not adjust for points in the same way as you adjusted for goals and assists? It seems like you are just introducing more error into the calculation of points by making it the sum of goals and assists.

I've struggled with this. So far I just calculated goals and assists and added them together to get total points. I like the idea that total points should be exactly equal to goals and assists.

The disadvantage of what I'm doing is that the scoring race may be shuffled a bit - for example a playmaker who played in a low-assist era might jump a few spots. The most extreme example might be Joe Primeau who, in reality, finished 6th and 2nd in scoring in 1930 and 1931 (seasons that featured very low assist totals). Under my adjusted scoring, he actually jumps to 3rd and 1st during those seasons.

I think it's debatable, though, if that's a disadvantage. One could argue that playmakers like Joe Primeau were penalized in the old day because they gave out so few assists and that my system (where they get full credit for goals, plus full credit for assists) is more fair because I ensure a fixed ratio of goals to assists every year.

(For the record, this has basically no impact on the scoring race for at least the past sixty years).

I calculated numbers for a few defensemen like this in the top 100 project, and I agree that it's certainly an interesting way of calculating defensemen scoring. As I recall, Orr pretty much breaks the system, scoring 120 points in 1970 when the 2nd place defenseman scored 44.

Even if we compare Orr to the league (and don't specifically look at defensemen), his 1970 season works out to 165 points (10th greatest season ever).

I don't think it's possible to set up an adjusted scoring system that accounts for the number of scoring line spots available in the league.

I think that Seventieslord's argument is valid but I also agree with Overpass that there probably isn't an easy way to correct it.

Marian Hossa looks really good according to these numbers even though he would have been a 3rd line RW on the Richard/Geoffrion Canadiens; Ralph Backstrom was stuck behind Beliveau & Richard for much of his prime but would easily be a #1 centre on Atlanta. Unfortunately I don't think there's any way for us to quantify these issues. I always advocate that we should quantify as much as possible, but then step back and look at the qualitative factors behind the numbers.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,144
14,450
Well done, HO. What I think is the most interesting aspect is how high up all the lists Mikita is. The more info I get about him the more I start to realize that he's probably the front runner for the raleh underrated award (see my original top100 list).

Mikita is a personal favourite of mine (not that influenced these calculations...) I did an analysis a few years ago showing that Mikita was virtually equal to Jagr in terms of regular season offense and, based on everything I read, he was very close to Forsberg in terms of defensive & physical play.

I think Mikita gets underrated partially because everyone forgets how great a goal-scorer he was (six years in the top five!). He was just unstoppable between 1962 and 1970 (four Art Ross trophies, eight years in the top three in scoring, and he came in 4th during his "off" year). Personally I have Mikita 5th among centre (behind 99, 66, Beliveau and Morenz).

I like seeing Syd Howe placing pretty well on the lists. Not sure if the overall opinion on him has gone up lately (it seemed pretty low in ATD9) but I feel he's arguably the most underrated player around here.

Seventieslord has been making some great arguments for Syd Howe recently (including one where he shows that he's quite similar to Francis) -- I'm till not sure if he'd be in my top 100, but he'll get some consideration.

I'm going on a tangent here, but my main counter-argument to Seventies' position that Howe got a lot of Hart votes despite getting few all-star votes, is that those Hart votes are less impressive given that so many of them came during WWII. He had one Hart nomination in 11 full seasons prior to WWII, then got two Hart nominations during the three WWII seasons.

Also love seeing Gordie Howe's showing. I'm on of the few who feels he deserved to be #1 on the Top 100 list and this is just something else for me to use in that debate.

You're probably the only person on HFBoards that advocates for Howe more than I do.

I was actually expecting somebody to comment that Howe's numbers look too good under this system. Here's my pre-emptive defense to those comments:

Six Art Ross trophies: averaged 147 points
Six additional years in 2nd or 3rd place: averaged 121 points
Eight years in 4th or 5th placed: averaged 111 points
His three "early" years: averaged 71 pts
His three "older" years: averaged 64 pts

- I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that a dominant Art Ross winner would score close to 150 points during an average-scoring era. Under this system, an average Art Ross scored 139 adjusted points (and remember that Howe often won his Art Ross trophies by 20-30% so it makes sense that he's above the mean).
- It's reasonable to say that a player who finished 2nd or 3rd in scoring, in an average year, would average around 120 points. Under this system, the average of players in 2nd/3rd place is 119 adjusted points per year.
- Once more I think it's reasonable to say that a player in 4th or 5th would score around 110 points per year. Under this system, the average of players in 4th/5th place is 107 adjusted points per year.
- Throw in a few hundred more points scored in his teens and 40s and you've got yourself a 2,900 point player.

Given Howe's tremendous accomplishments I think it's entirely fair for him to perform so well according to these adjusted stats.

Would it be possible to compile something like this for the WHA as well? Might be useful for evaluating some of the players who were in both leagues.

This could definitely be done if I had all the players' stats in an Excel file. Some of the WHA's ridiculously high-scoring years would be reduced somewhat, but there would still be the issue of cross-league translation (ie this method would tell you that Robbie Ftorek's 59 goals in 1978 were only worth 50, but even that would be too high, I'd imagine).
 
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Triffy

Registered User
Jun 23, 2006
337
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Helsinki
Excellent work, as usual, HO.

Things that caught my attention on the 5 year peak list:

  • Norm Ullman — Amazing. I knew he was underrated. But on the list, he's equal to one of my favorites, Syl Apps. And Sakic, who I'm surprised to see that high, too. And like Sakic, Ullman was also a great playoff performer and a good defensive forward. Ullman barely made it to the HOH Top 100 list last time. Hopefully he rises a bit in this year's update. The gap between Sakic & Yzerman & Apps (who I all see quite similar) and him shouldn't be that big.
  • Cy Denneny — There are only 2 LWs (Bobby Hull and Ted Lindsay) ahead of Denneny on the list, which is impressive. But as HO already pointed out using Joe Primeau as an example, this method too has its flaws. Denneny seems to have been dominant in playmaking during his time. That's what the 78 assist peak average tells me. The problem is, no one remembers him as a great playmaker. Or am I wrong here? I should definitely re-evaluate his position among LWs. He stands at #11 now.
  • The Bentleys — This is an interesting discussion. Doug and Max one after the other, like it should be. But wait, not on a list that ranks the players by offensive numbers? This surprises me. I always thought Max had the better offensive numbers. But Doug actually got similar results, while being the more responsible defensively. Of course it needs to be pointed out that Max has easily the better playoff resume, thanks to his years as a Maple Leaf. Again, one of those pairs that shouldn't be that far apart from each other on the HOH Top 100 list.
  • Nels Stewart vs. Frank Boucher — One of my numerous misevaluations, it apperas. I made a statistical comparison between Stewart and Boucher some time ago. I can't remember the details, but I think they seemed to be very close offensively. Here Boucher is way ahead of Stewart. Then I look at Boucher's incredible assist totals. Is that just the same "flaw" once again?

Again, very interesting lists. I appreciate your work, HO.

Edit: Now that I took a closer look on the Bentleys, it seems that Doug had two excellent seasons during wartime. He was the leading goalscorer in 1943 and 1944. That explains why he is as high as he is on the peak points list.
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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I'll be interested to see what HO says about this but for now here are my thoughts.

I don't think it's possible to set up an adjusted scoring system that accounts for the number of scoring line spots available in the league.

I think there has to be a way to do it (there's a way to do almost anything) but it would most likely require the use of exponents after the analysis of models of different league sizes. You would need to compare how many points the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 10th, 20th, 50th, 100th, etc-placed players in various sized leagues tend to have in relation to eachother.

Even so, I think it would have to be based on an assumption that a 2nd line player drops to the 3rd, and then to the 4th, and then to the press box, as the league gets smaller and smaller, and vice versa, even though we know that isn't always true. There are "scoring line or bust" players, and there are elite checkers who would play on a checking line in any sized league. It also wouldn't account for the Terry Yake effect - players getting first line minutes and leading a poor team in scoring simply because there is no one better to put on the ice. But if such a system could be developed, I'd be willing to accept these two deficiencies.

"Jim Pappin scored 32 points in 1967, but in 1993 with 24 teams he would have been a 1st line winger and scored 88 points."

"Miroslav Satan scored 75 points in 2003, but in 1964 he would have played in the AHL and been an occasional call-up, scoring 5 points in 15 games for the Detroit Red Wings."

Perfect examples, actually, that illustrate what I'm saying. Middling first-liners who play a decent number of years still end up getting a lot more credit than they deserve under systems like this. Think of guys who frequently were 30th-50th in league scoring... Steve Thomas, Ray Ferraro, Michal Pivonka, Brian Bradley, Murray Craven, Dan Quinn... I could go on forever.

OK, but seriously, if you think that the 10th best player over time is always at about the same level, and the 50th best player over time is always at about the same level, I don't think any adjusted points scoring system will get you there. You're better off just looking at ranking within the league (as I believe you do.)

Looking at ranking within the league is certainly my most preferred method.

I don't think that the 10th best player over time is always at exactly the same level, but.... more or less, they are. At least they can be considered that way when conducting an ATD or discussing who was the most dominant relative to their peers, in their time. Even if hockey has changed, developed, improved, and today's 10th best player is way better than 1960's 10th-best. I certainly don't agree with arguments that state that "the 15th best center today is like the 3rd-best center in the original six era" because it fails to acknowledge that the NHL is the best of the best, and just the tip of the iceberg that is the grand scheme of hockey being played.

I think this adjusted points system adds a lot more than league rank does when evaluating players who were among the top scorers in the league, and especially in separating the Gretzkys from the Schriners among the league leaders. Of course there's still a ton of context to take into account, but that's the same with any stat - stats can only approach measuring the player's performance, and will never do so exactly.

This is true. Not all first place finishes are created equal. I think, though, that the further down you go, as the difference between one placement and the next get smaller and smaller, the closer to being created equal they are. For example, you could almost say "a 10th place is like any other 10th place" when looking at the relation between 2nd and 10th over time... it would be harder to do that for 3rd, 4th, or 5th, and downright wrong when discussing 1sts.
 

seventieslord

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Mar 16, 2006
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Seventieslord has been making some great arguments for Syd Howe recently (including one where he shows that he's quite similar to Francis) -- I'm till not sure if he'd be in my top 100, but he'll get some consideration.

I'm going on a tangent here, but my main counter-argument to Seventies' position that Howe got a lot of Hart votes despite getting few all-star votes, is that those Hart votes are less impressive given that so many of them came during WWII. He had one Hart nomination in 11 full seasons prior to WWII, then got two Hart nominations during the three WWII seasons.

I won't be ranking Howe artificially higher to bump him up to consideration - I'll have him where I think he belongs - in the 90's. He probably won't come up for voting either way.

Regarding the Hart votes - that's true. Who was not around in those seasons that would have certainly bumped Howe down in the Hart voting? I'm just curious where his Hart voting finishes would "translate" to in a fully-stocked league. Regardless, it still shows he was considered one of a handful of the most valuable players in hockey.

Right now, more than anything, the linemates issue is what is driving my Syd Howe campaign. He never played with an all-star, ever. That's the part that really gets me. I think his scoring totals are astounding, considering. And he always paced those linemates in scoring.


Excellent work, as usual, HO.

[*]Cy Denneny — There are only 2 LWs (Bobby Hull and Ted Lindsay) ahead of Denneny on the list, which is impressive. But as HO already pointed out using Joe Primeau as an example, this method too has its flaws. Denneny seems to have been dominant in playmaking during his time. That's what the 78 assist peak average tells me. The problem is, no one remembers him as a great playmaker. Or am I wrong here? I should definitely re-evaluate his position among LWs. He stands at #11 now.

I've also noticed lately that Denneny is an underrated playmaker.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,797
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...Would this method (with the milestones seasons...) sligthly overrate wartime players? Herb Cain and Billy Taylor in Mark Messier's territory just seems wrong to me.
 

Triffy

Registered User
Jun 23, 2006
337
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Helsinki
...Would this method (with the milestones seasons...) sligthly overrate wartime players? Herb Cain and Billy Taylor in Mark Messier's territory just seems wrong to me.

It does. And not only the milestones list. It affects all of them. Poor talent pool during the wartime affects on Bill Cowley, Elmer Lach and Maurice Richard to name a few. As well as the ones you mentioned.

Same goes for 1918-26, too.

Edit: Ahh, I just thought about it a bit more and it actually doesn't necessarily affect on Rocket's or Lach's peak points. I didn't check but they both might have made their best 5 seasons after 1945.
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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I think the only way to truly adjust scoring stats for a war year, is to do the following:

a) assume that the missing star players were still in the league, assume they played whatever percentage of the season they usually did, and determine where you would slot them in among the league leaders in goals, assists, and points. Credit them temporarily with the corresponding amounts of goals, assists, and points.

b) adjust the inflated scoring totals by multiplying by the inverse of what factor scoring increased by, compared to the average of the last three pre-war years. i.e. 75 points might only mean 55 points. In other words, assume that if the status quo was maintained, scoring levels would stay the same (you may also want to assume a slight upward trend throughout those seasons to account for scoring getting to the level it was at in 1945-46)
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,271
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I think there has to be a way to do it (there's a way to do almost anything) but it would most likely require the use of exponents after the analysis of models of different league sizes. You would need to compare how many points the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 10th, 20th, 50th, 100th, etc-placed players in various sized leagues tend to have in relation to eachother.

Even so, I think it would have to be based on an assumption that a 2nd line player drops to the 3rd, and then to the 4th, and then to the press box, as the league gets smaller and smaller, and vice versa, even though we know that isn't always true. There are "scoring line or bust" players, and there are elite checkers who would play on a checking line in any sized league. It also wouldn't account for the Terry Yake effect - players getting first line minutes and leading a poor team in scoring simply because there is no one better to put on the ice. But if such a system could be developed, I'd be willing to accept these two deficiencies.

Yeah, I shouldn't have said it couldn't be done, it probably could. However, you would get very different outputs depending on the size of league you chose to benchmark to. Most importantly, the final numbers would be very hypothetical. Adjusted scoring gets knocked by some people for being a what-if...well, that adjusted scoring system would really be a what-if. It would definitely be interesting to see, in any case.

I've struggled with this. So far I just calculated goals and assists and added them together to get total points. I like the idea that total points should be exactly equal to goals and assists.

The disadvantage of what I'm doing is that the scoring race may be shuffled a bit - for example a playmaker who played in a low-assist era might jump a few spots. The most extreme example might be Joe Primeau who, in reality, finished 6th and 2nd in scoring in 1930 and 1931 (seasons that featured very low assist totals). Under my adjusted scoring, he actually jumps to 3rd and 1st during those seasons.

I think it's debatable, though, if that's a disadvantage. One could argue that playmakers like Joe Primeau were penalized in the old day because they gave out so few assists and that my system (where they get full credit for goals, plus full credit for assists) is more fair because I ensure a fixed ratio of goals to assists every year.

Cy Denneny — There are only 2 LWs (Bobby Hull and Ted Lindsay) ahead of Denneny on the list, which is impressive. But as HO already pointed out using Joe Primeau as an example, this method too has its flaws. Denneny seems to have been dominant in playmaking during his time. That's what the 78 assist peak average tells me

I agree that there are points both ways for how to handle the goal-assist ratio over time. Players like Primeau, Boucher, and Denneny are certainly the ones most affected.

Personally, I like to assume that scorers in the early days of hockey were handing out the right number of assists in relation to goals, or at least the goal-assist ratio they used was more correct then a modern goal-assist ratio for their time. If you think about hockey without a forward pass, it certainly seems like passing would be less important and the ability to rush the puck would be the major offensive talent, along with shooting. Descriptions of players from the 1910s and 1920s often name them as great at rushing the puck. For this reason, I don't think that this way of adjusting assists works well for hockey before the late 1920s.

I do think it's possible that scorers should have been handing out more assists in the 1930s. The game was changing rapidly, and they may not have adjusted quickly enough. Because of that, I'd agree that this method may give appropriate credit to Primeau and Boucher's playmaking abilities.

Player|GPG|APG|PPG
Wayne Gretzky | 0.52 | 1.22 | 1.74
Mario Lemieux | 0.66 | 1.06 | 1.72
Newsy Lalonde | 0.63 | 0.89 | 1.52
Bobby Orr | 0.42 | 1.09 | 1.51
Sidney Crosby | 0.46 | 0.97 | 1.44
Syl Apps Sr | 0.58 | 0.85 | 1.43

Wow! Very impressed by Syl Apps' per-game numbers. It's not completely surprising, as I knew he missed a few games every year and did very well in per-game metrics, but it's still very impressive to see him in sixth place all-time. This result, along with his high ranking in seventieslord's Hart study, is making me think we may have underrated him in the top 100 list. I'll certainly have him higher on my list.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
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[*]Cy Denneny — There are only 2 LWs (Bobby Hull and Ted Lindsay) ahead of Denneny on the list, which is impressive. But as HO already pointed out using Joe Primeau as an example, this method too has its flaws. Denneny seems to have been dominant in playmaking during his time. That's what the 78 assist peak average tells me. The problem is, no one remembers him as a great playmaker. Or am I wrong here? I should definitely re-evaluate his position among LWs. He stands at #11 now.

I was a big propenent of Denneny in the Top 100 project. I think the fact that his exploits came in the 1918-26 era was the main argument against him, but his goal scoring and playmaking dominance caught my eye and I think I indeed ranked him as the third best LW on my list.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Regina, SK
I was a big propenent of Denneny in the Top 100 project. I think the fact that his exploits came in the 1918-26 era was the main argument against him, but his goal scoring and playmaking dominance caught my eye and I think I indeed ranked him as the third best LW on my list.

It's too bad that there's a lot of anti-pre-26 sentiment out there. If someone was the top goal-scorer in the NHL, NHA, or PCHA, there is no evidence to suggest that they wouldn't be one of the top 3 or 4 goal-scorers in an imaginary consolidated league. It's not their fault what the state of top-level hockey was in their time.
 

Triffy

Registered User
Jun 23, 2006
337
3
Helsinki
It's too bad that there's a lot of anti-pre-26 sentiment out there. If someone was the top goal-scorer in the NHL, NHA, or PCHA, there is no evidence to suggest that they wouldn't be one of the top 3 or 4 goal-scorers in an imaginary consolidated league. It's not their fault what the state of top-level hockey was in their time.

I get your point, and agree in general. But I can understand why people drop players like Denneny down: today's game is based mostly on skating, and his skating ability was weak even for his era. It's just hard to imagine a player like that excell in any given conditions.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,125
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Regina, SK
For the purposes of "relative to era" comparisons I would consider his skating to be like that of a Tim Kerr or Dave Andreychuk. They still accomplished great things despite their skating. I'm worried more about results, not exactly how they achieved those results.
 

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