Player Discussion Adam Larsson (Hall talk will result in a thread ban)

[Drivesaitl]

Again, if you followed the Devils you would know that Greene struggled after they moved Larsson.

And since then in general I don't believe he has been as successful.

In a few seasons post Larsson, Greene/Lovejoy, Greene/Severin had some success themselves, on what was overall a bad, and rebuilding team. Keeping in mind Greene being much older in recent years.

Larsson won't even be playing hockey at Greenes age and looks to have a back condition already.

Obviously Greene has had a better career and I'm not sure if its even being argued really.

 

[Aerchon]

In a few seasons post Larsson, Greene/Lovejoy, Greene/Severin had some success themselves, on what was overall a bad, and rebuilding team. Keeping in mind Greene being much older in recent years.

Larsson won't even be playing hockey at Greenes age and looks to have a back condition already.

Obviously Greene has had a better career and I'm not sure if its even being argued really.

It's not even been brought up until now. I think most/all would agree with your last point.

 

[Fourier]

You mean like Andy Greene being a good to great D for at least a decade and mentoring other D in that time.

Are we talking about who is actually the better D, or who had a very short time frame in which they fooled some people?

Lots of players, any position, can have a couple good seasons and disappear.


Are you, or anybody else going to argue though who is actually the better D, and who has had the better NHL career?

Lets see what the Devils org themselves have to say;

Devils Name Andy Greene Next Captain

The key point here that I've been saying for years;

"At 32, Greene leads a defense who not including himself, has an average age of 23.7. Partnered with Adam Larsson for the beginning of the season, Greene has mentored and served as an example for the young defense as they've become NHL regulars. It's not a coincidence every defenseman seems to improve their play alongside Greene."was

But its a weird thing. Partner Greene with anybody and that's the Devils best pairing. Doesn't matter whether its Larsson, Lovejoy, Severin, and interestingly Greene and the Devils never even missed Larsson all that much if we're being honest. Greene-Lovejoy was a better pairing. But Greene isn't a sexy D in anyway. He's very competent, reliable, a work horse, and decent moving the puck, but gets less credit than he should. Many pundits feel his contributions are underrated.

The post I quoted was in reference to your response to the claim that at the time he was acquired Larsson was NJ's best defenseman. Your response was that he was not even close. You were wrong. He was. The fact that Greene was a mentor is irrelevant to the claim at hand so why move the goal posts? From 2014-2015 through to 2016-2017 Larsson was simply better than Greene. Between his back and his father's death he has struggled the last two years. But that does not change the fact that over three years he played exceptionally well.

 

[TheNumber4]

I've always worried about Larsson's back. Watch highlights of him in his rookie year before the Subban hit. Dude was a completely different player, way more dynamic, way more willing to carry the puck up, way more willing to make plays in the O-zone carrying the puck. Then he got belted and effed up his back. He was projected to be on a Hedman level offensively... and has hints of Lidstrom in his game. He's now either too slow / too scared / too injured to make high end plays with the puck it seems.

I like his snarl, and every now and then he shows some semblance of offensive ability in the O-zone... but it seems like we were sold damaged goods for Hall if it really is his back screwing up his potential. Another epic and embarrassing Oilers management failure, what's new.

 

[Fourier]

I've always worried about Larsson's back. Watch highlights of him in his rookie year before the Subban hit. Dude was a completely different player, way more dynamic, way more willing to carry the puck up, way more willing to make plays in the O-zone carrying the puck. Then he got belted and effed up his back. He was projected to be on a Hedman level offensively... and has hints of Lidstrom in his game. He's now either too slow / too scared / too injured to make high end plays with the puck it seems.

I like his snarl, and every now and then he shows some semblance of offensive ability in the O-zone... but it seems like we were sold damaged goods for Hall if it really is his back screwing up his potential. Another epic and embarrassing Oilers management failure, what's new.

His back is clearly an issue. If it is chronic then he will be limited as a player since he has to be physical to be fully effective.

 

[harpoon]

Lots of NHL players suffer injuries. Lots of NHL players go through personal tragedies. Not sure I’ve seen any other player get as much consideration as Larsson has received on this board .... and people say Edmonton fans are hard on their players.

 

[LaGu]

.... never mind

 

[Fourier]

Lots of NHL players suffer injuries. Lots of NHL players go through personal tragedies. Not sure I’ve seen any other player get as much consideration as Larsson has received on this board .... and people say Edmonton fans are hard on their players.

What consideration are you talking about? It seems to be pretty much an undisputable fact that Larsson's back and his father's death had a huge impact on his play in 2017-2018 and perhaps had an impact on his play in 2018-2019. If it continues it will be to his determent. If he is healthy then we should expect him to bounce back. Again if he doesn't that's on him.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The post I quoted was in reference to your response to the claim that at the time he was acquired Larsson was NJ's best defenseman. Your response was that he was not even close. You were wrong. He was. The fact that Greene was a mentor is irrelevant to the claim at hand so why move the goal posts? From 2014-2015 through to 2016-2017 Larsson was simply better than Greene. Between his back and his father's death he has struggled the last two years. But that does not change the fact that over three years he played exceptionally well.

This is what I stated;

"He was not NJ best D, not even Close. He was the underling of Andy Greene, who had always been NJ's best D and was essentially the playing tutor to all other D there. "

There is no reference, zero, to me stating "at the time". its something you made up in your haste to respond to a post that was correct.

I hardly see how Greenes mentorship is irrelevant when he was, for a decade, mentoring NJ's young D's who flourished when paired with Greene. Its my suspicion that it was Greene, not Larsson moving that needle. In anycase YOU moved the goal posts by shifting wording to make it appear I had stated something I had not said.

Nor is it clear Larson played "exceptionally well" for 3 seasons. He's had two subpar seasons in a row HERE now and starting on the third having looked terrible in preseason. Its interesting that you'll prop up one time sample while explaining away the recency sample of two seasons. This being harder to comprehend as Larsson is in prime of life and playing poorly across multiple seasons.

In the generaly discussion though you give no such credit to Greene who played exceptionally well for a decade. Which was my point in him being a better, and more established and capable D.

 

[Drivesaitl]

What consideration are you talking about? It seems to be pretty much an undisputable fact that Larsson's back and his father's death had a huge impact on his play in 2017-2018 and perhaps had an impact on his play in 2018-2019. If it continues it will be to his determent. If he is healthy then we should expect him to bounce back. Again if he doesn't that's on him.

This is an indisputable fact to you? You know this categorically? Its not actually an established fact. Its a presumption. In both instances. Or in other words excuses because defenders of the player want there to be excuses.

You make tons of good posts here using information, citation, and I think its your strongpoint in discussion. But you're intelligent enough to know that when you start composing a sentence like "It seems to be pretty much indisputable fact" that you should recognize how tenuous and made up that sounds to the reader. That in writing it you can't even convince yourself to word it in clear terms and yet still use the word fact. In what reasonable discourse does "seems to be pretty much" = fact.

The proper parlance of your phrase, narratively taken, would be "It seems to me" which is of course different than fact.

Of course its disputable that the two variables had a "huge impact". Its not a known. To you or any of us.

My joking with Aerchon aside, none of us establishes fact in the absence of known. Something surely you agree with.

 

[CROTT]

This is what I stated;

"He was not NJ best D, not even Close. He was the underling of Andy Greene, who had always been NJ's best D and was essentially the playing tutor to all other D there. "

There is no reference, zero, to me stating "at the time". its something you made up in your haste to respond to a post that was correct.

You said he "was not NJ best D", meaning past tense as in around the time of the trade as up untill his last two seasons in NJ he had not played more then half a season in the NHL. I don't see him out playing vets regulary as a rookie, in the AHL, or injured, so how are you not refering to the season or two before the trade?

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

What consideration are you talking about? It seems to be pretty much an undisputable fact that Larsson's back and his father's death had a huge impact on his play in 2017-2018 and perhaps had an impact on his play in 2018-2019. If it continues it will be to his determent. If he is healthy then we should expect him to bounce back. Again if he doesn't that's on him.

If he's not healthy physically or mentally then he needs to step away, nobody would blame him.

 

[Drivesaitl]

You said he "was not NJ best D", meaning past tence as in around the time of the trade as up untill his last two season he had not played more then half a season in the NHL. I don't see him out playing vets regulary as a rookie, in the AHL, or injured, so how are you not refering to the season or two before the trade?

I never implied temporal tense. There is no time modifier in what I stated. Its being presumed that I was speaking just in time stamped terms.

I value vets. Any poster here knows that. Andy Greene had been solving offenses and forechecks almost 10years before Larsson got appreciable minutes. Of course Andy Greene was the more established of the two, and in my view the better D because of it. Of course Andy Greene is the calm stable vet presence on any pairing he's playing on.

Sometimes theres a very significant bias on "hockey futures" that leans to younger prospects as being better than established pro's. I lean against that view regularly.

Countless times on hf, and on this board you will hear development supposition that presumes to know how a player will turn out. With Larsson, as with Talbot, that's a longterm unknown. So that its found money for me to state that Andy Greene likely has had a better career than Adam Larsson ever will. I would bet on it. Greene's term and bar is pre-established. Its known, vs unknown in the case of Larsson.

I'll use an example. 2 seasons ago Khaira was being trumped up heavy on this board. There were comments he was the Next Ryan Smyth, that he would be a dominant player. That he was special and "tracking good" (mythological term). Quite simply there wasn't enough GP and sample size to say.

Years ago I thought Petry was going to be good. defended him a lot. He had to play out of type often here because we had no top pairing. he turned out to be good once he was in a proper position and with D and team support in Montreal. Adam would probably fare better here too if he was used in a 3-4 assignment. He has a lot of trouble being a 1-2D, which Greene has had to do a lot of in NJ.

Finally, my stated premonition when we obtained Larsson is that he could struggle more here in the WC where lots of opponents bring a heavy metal forechecking scheme with some big big bodies. This representing a variable that we had not seen enough of at the point of acquiring him.

 

[CROTT]

/TLDR

You do realize that you didn't answer my question, then just rambled on. You said he wasn't NJ best defencemen, then Forier said he was a good defenceman at the time of the trade to which you said you were not refering to the time of the trade. But how could a defencemen that was spliting time between the NHL and AHL prior to his last couple of seasons before the trade to the Oil be a good defencemen? If he was he would have been playing the whole season in the NHL like he was prior to the trade.

 

[Drivesaitl]

You do realize that you didn't answer my question, then just rambled on. You said he wasn't NJ best defencemen, then Forier said he was a good defenceman at the time of the trade to which you said you were not refering to the time of the trade. But how could a defencemen that was spliting time between the NHL and AHL prior to his last couple of seasons before the trade to the Oil be a good defencemen? If he was he would have been playing the whole season in the NHL like he was prior to the trade.

You're not reading closely what I wrote. I clearly defer to vet D, or vet players. That's a reasonable premise as experience, maturity, NHL hockey knowledge are useful variables.

Is it reasonable for you to not read what I wrote while presuming I didn't answer? If that's your motto I won't continue to answer.

I'm giving you some background on how I evaluate. Thus my statement that Andy Greene had been the better D. Although I'm fine if people think the "not even close" was out of line in my statement. If that's the case, fair comment. I'm fine with that being redacted. But at the time of the trade I felt Andy Greene was the better, more established D, and said so, right on these boards. That's been my established take. fwiw

In anycase your deduction that there had not been enough time for Larsson to be clearly a good D at the NHL level is a different way of saying what I'm saying and was a concern at the time of the trade. We were told we were "getting a 1D and this is the price you pay" Very clearly Larsson is not a 1D and I can't think of many teams where he would be.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

If Swedish team Larsson doesn't show up this year then he needs to sit in the press box.

Sadly, I think he would prefer it there right now. His play certainly suggests it.

 

[dem]

Larsson better get it together this year... because its starting to feel like he just sucks.

Which is terribly disappointing after his first year.

 

[replacement]

Dude has a relatively unassuming preseason, and people are calling him garbage? Pretty pretty pretty reactionary.

 

[Soundwave]

I think honestly the season hinges on him and Klefbom.

If he cannot get himself out of whatever mental funk he has been in since his father passed ... then the Oilers are toast.

If he can, then maybe they have a shot if Klef can also stay healthy.

But they got no shot if he is going to play as he did last year and in this pre-season.

 

[redgrant]

Should look at what we can get for him when he's back.

Prefer how the team is moving the puck much more without him being awful.

 

[ImmuneEH]

Should look at what we can get for him when he's back.

Prefer how the team is moving the puck much more without him being awful.

I think Bear and Nurse should be kept together. Can also see Larsson and Persson fighting for a spot with Klefbomb.

If Bear & Persson establish themselves by showing consistency in their game, I'd totally be open to selling Larsson for pick(s) in this deep draft coming up.

 

[YEGJuniorFan]

I think Bear and Nurse should be kept together. Can also see Larsson and Persson fighting for a spot with Klefbomb.

If Bear & Persson establish themselves by showing consistency in their game, I'd totally be open to selling Larsson for pick(s) in this deep draft coming up.

Not a chance Larsson is moved this year or the next. Bear, Bouchard, and the other d prospects are not there yet. It's not like he's very old either.

 

[ujju2]

Talk of moving him is way premature. In a couple seasons? Yeah, probably.

Klefbom-Larsson
Nurse-Bear
Russell-Persson

Solid as rock there. If you want a more offensive pair and a shutdown pair, you can switch Persson and Larsson. Plus Larsson will still be super useful for the playoffs, more imo than the two rookies. Even with how well they're playing rn.

 

[syz]

Talk of moving him is way premature. In a couple seasons? Yeah, probably.

Klefbom-Larsson
Nurse-Bear
Russell-Persson

Solid as rock there. If you want a more offensive pair and a shutdown pair, you can switch Persson and Larsson. Plus Larsson will still be super useful for the playoffs, more imo than the two rookies. Even with how well they're playing rn.

In a couple seasons he'll be a UFA anyways.

We'll see how things go this year, both wrt his play when he's back and the play of the rest of the D (prospects included), but I can see him being left unprotected in the next expansion draft.

Based on his play the last couple of years I don't think he would be especially difficult to replace via trade or free agency if lost in the draft anyways if there are no prospects ready to take his spot.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Who?

As I stated weeks ago Adam Larsson is not required. We have better D prospects who are perfectly ready to play and are already better.

Nurse-Bear looked far better tonight than Nurse-Larsson has ever looked.

I'd do a trade where we gain capspace. Larsson ain't much at this point.