Player Discussion Adam Gaudette, Pt. II

4Twenty

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Fans are clueless when it comes to contracts.. Beagle’s deal is market value. Everyone expects a below market value contract for UFA aged players which is totally unreasonable. Listening to Elliot Friedman’s podcast with Jay Beagle just hammered home what an incredible signing it was because he brings the exact mindset that helps teammates. A relentlessly positive voice in the locker room is extremely valuable and a relentlessly negative voice is equally but oppositely cancerous.
Can you please point out all the players that are signed to $3m/yr for 4 years to play on the 4th line?

If that is the market value for a 20 point 4th liner you should be able to find at least 30 cohorts.

Contenders pay substantially less for better 4C's.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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Can you please point out all the players that are signed to $3m/yr for 4 years to play on the 4th line?

If that is the market value for a 20 point 4th liner you should be able to find at least 30 cohorts.

Contenders pay substantially less for better 4C's.
Contenders usually have top heavy salary structures...We have no such thing, and won't be heading into that territory for a couple of years..By that time, there will be several expiring contracts, trades.

As a rebuilding team, you will obviously be overpaying for the services of a UFA..Beagle was obviously valued around the league as there was a bidding war for his services..

Beagle update : #Canucks still in mix but price and term keeps going up and up because so many teams involved. Not done to Vancouver.
171
3:48 PM - Jun 29, 2018

Are you suggesting we should have gone with the AHL 4th line we did last year with Gaunce,Archibald etc..?...
 
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4Twenty

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Contenders usually have top heavy salary structures...We have no such thing, and won't be heading into that territory for a couple of years..By that time, there will be several expiring contracts, trades.

As a rebuilding team, you will obviously be overpaying for the services of a UFA..Beagle was obviously valued around the league as there was a bidding war for his services..

Beagle update : #Canucks still in mix but price and term keeps going up and up because so many teams involved. Not done to Vancouver.
171
3:48 PM - Jun 29, 2018

Are you suggesting we should have gone with the AHL 4th line we did last year with Gaunce,Archibald etc..?...
Can you show me any 4th line C's making $3m a year. That is the question I posed to the other poster. If you respond, please answer.

Every team should have top heavy salary structures.

The term and price went up on Beagle and every other team walked away. I'm sure Washington would've liked to retain Beagle too, but paying $3m for a 4th liner doesn't work for good teams. Bad teams should be following what the good teams do.

Look at Dowd who took over Beagle's spot in Washington, they haven't skipped a beat.
 

VanJack

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Wholeheartedly agree. Canucks have an absolutely ludicrous amount of money and term tied up in 'depth players'. Beagle, Roussel, Schaller, Gudbranson, Gagner and even Sutter are third-fourth line checkers and in the case of Gudbranson a 5-7 depth d-man at best.

The Canucks are totally out of whack with what other teams are paying these kind of players under the salary cap.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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Can you show me any 4th line C's making $3m a year. That is the question I posed to the other poster. If you respond, please answer.

Every team should have top heavy salary structures.

The term and price went up on Beagle and every other team walked away. I'm sure Washington would've liked to retain Beagle too, but paying $3m for a 4th liner doesn't work for good teams. Bad teams should be following what the good teams do.

Look at Dowd who took over Beagle's spot in Washington, they haven't skipped a beat.
Our bottom 6 is one of/if not the highest paid in the league..not contesting that..Beagle probably is the highest paid 4th liner,and there's no problem with that (if you can afford it)...We have a solid NHL player in Beagle...Check out our record with/without him in the lineup.

Benning and Green identified the bottom 6 as a weak link..and the Beagle and Roussel signings have been good...$3M a year is not a backbreaker.

Our top players are on ELC's,Horvat is signed (to a great contract)....Would you have preferred Benning to blow his brains out on signing top 6 UFA's like JVR or Tyler Bozak on $ and term?....Those are the type of deals that would have hamstrung the Canucks for years..As it turns out, not signing any top 6 forwards by Benning was the smart move (we have the 8th most goals for in the Western Conference),it was not necessary..

We are not the Capitals..they have the forward depth to absorb the loss of Beagle..They could probably put a plug like Gaunce or Archibald on their 4th line and still be fine...At the end of the day, they couldn't afford the luxury of keeping Beagle.
 
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Pastor Of Muppetz

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Yes. They were doing really well at the end of last year chewing up tough minutes and doing exactly what you need from a 4th line at a minuscule cost. The results would be the exact same for a fraction of the cost.
What is our record without Beagle in the lineup?
 

4Twenty

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Our bottom 6 is one of/if not the highest paid in the league..not contesting that..Beagle probably is the highest paid 4th liner,and there's no problem with that (if you can afford it)...We have a solid NHL player in Beagle...Check out our record with/without him in the lineup.

Benning and Green identified the bottom 6 as a weak link..and the Beagle and Roussel signings have been good...$3M a year is not a backbreaker.

Our top players are on ELC's,Horvat is signed (to a great contract)....Would you have preferred Benning to blow his brains out on signing top 6 UFA's like JVR or Tyler Bozak on $ and term?....Those are the type of deals that would have hamstrung the Canucks for years..As it turns out, not signing any top 6 forwards by Benning was the smart move (we have the 8th most goals for in the Western Conference),it was not necessary..

We are not the Capitals..they have the forward depth to absorb the loss of Beagle..They could probably put a plug like Gaunce or Archibald on their 4th line and still be fine...At the end of the day, they couldn't afford the luxury of keeping Beagle.
This conversation came up because that poster was saying Beagle was making market value. He is not. And I have a problem with that. I'd rather spend that $2m overpay upgrading top 6 forwards or finally acquiring an additional top 4 defensman.

I don't think its reasonable to attribute the Canucks record in games Jay Beagle has played to Jay Beagle. If you give that thought credence, then look at Washington last year vs this year, they score more, allow less and have more points.

$3m alone isn't a back breaker, does anything actually break backs...Eriksson is dreadful but he doesn't break backs either, what these constant overpays does is keep you out of the market for better players, ones that actually push the needle and drives teams from mediocrity to good.

I would've preferred Benning to target better players, yes. More skilled players who can play all over the lineup. I don't really believe in top 6/bottom 6. Good teams have good players throughout. I also wouldn't have gone over 2 years for any UFA....if you lose out on Beagle oh well....the guy doesn't move the needle. A player I mentioned on other forums was Val Filppula, can play all the forward positions and can play with talent and produce. He only required a one year deal.

I think you're making a really stupid statement calling Benning targeting bottom 6 players a smart move. Do you not understand how silly it sounds that you're promoting signing bottom 6ers who are meant to I guess in your world be "defensive players" yet they've given up the 14th most goals in the conference (of 15 teams) and the 6th most goals in the entire league. Basically the gist of your argument is that signing bad offensive players and still being able to score while being the worst defensive team in the conference is a plus....that is ridiculous.


Brad Richardson is the same age, a better more productive player and only required 2 years at a 1/3 the cost of Beagle. They didn't HAVE TO HAVE Beagle.
 
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4Twenty

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Its not like there were only two options of either handing out a stupid big money contract to Bozak or handing out a stupid contract for less money to a lesser player.
I believe the term is strawman.
 

Hit the post

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Hiding under WTG's bed...
Brad Richardson is the same age, a better more productive player and only required 2 years at a 1/3 the cost of Beagle. They didn't HAVE TO HAVE Beagle.
Would Gaunce - a guy we already have - been that much a downgrade? Actually forget Beagle, why sign a guy like Schaller when you already have signed or will sign Beagle?

Anyhow, this is the Gaudette thread.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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This conversation came up because that poster was saying Beagle was making market value. He is not. And I have a problem with that. I'd rather spend that $2m overpay upgrading top 6 forwards or finally acquiring an additional top 4 defensman.

I don't think its reasonable to attribute the Canucks record in games Jay Beagle has played to Jay Beagle. If you give that thought credence, then look at Washington last year vs this year, they score more, allow less and have more points.

$3m alone isn't a back breaker, does anything actually break backs...Eriksson is dreadful but he doesn't break backs either, what these constant overpays does is keep you out of the market for better players, ones that actually push the needle and drives teams from mediocrity to good.

I would've preferred Benning to target better players, yes. More skilled players who can play all over the lineup. I don't really believe in top 6/bottom 6. Good teams have good players throughout. I also wouldn't have gone over 2 years for any UFA....if you lose out on Beagle oh well....the guy doesn't move the needle. A player I mentioned on other forums was Val Filppula, can play all the forward positions and can play with talent and produce. He only required a one year deal.

I think you're making a really stupid statement calling Benning targeting bottom 6 players a smart move. Do you not understand how silly it sounds that you're promoting signing bottom 6ers who are meant to I guess in your world be "defensive players" yet they've given up the 14th most goals in the conference (of 15 teams) and the 6th most goals in the entire league. Basically the gist of your argument is that signing bad offensive players and still being able to score while being the worst defensive team in the conference is a plus....that is ridiculous.


Brad Richardson is the same age, a better more productive player and only required 2 years at a 1/3 the cost of Beagle. They didn't HAVE TO HAVE Beagle.
If we had acquired a UFA upgrading a top 6 forward..,would'nt we be taking away a roster spot for one of our young players..?..Everybody here on HFVan would be screaming blue murder if Benning had done that in July....We didn't even have NHL players playing on our 4th line last year, the PK was atrocious..It had to be upgraded (Green had a lot of say regarding the off season moves)..The Beagle/Roussel signings have been a positive (other than their contracts are a year too long).

You wouldn't have gone over 2 years in signing a UFA..?...Mmmmmm..I wonder how many players you would have been able to sign in the off season.. that would have been willing to go to a consensus bottom 5 team in, the midst of a rebuild (easy to say behind a computer keyboard)....and not overpay....How do you know that Val Filpulla would even want to play on a rebuilding team on the West coast..?...The player gets to decide..Do you understand that?

Also,you said you would have acquired a top 4 d-man.Pick one off of the top 4 d-man tree?..Do you have any idea what the price tag is for that?.What would you be prepared to give up off of the roster for a top 4 D..?...Again,good UFA d-men don't go to teams in the middle of a rebuild.

Every team has one or two anchor contracts...

When decimated by injuries and the brutal schedule things will go sideways...thats the way it goes for a rebuilding team..I have no illusions about that...I know that you're desperately clinging to the hope that the team is a tire fire...but its not happening.
 

4Twenty

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If we had acquired a UFA upgrading a top 6 forward..,would'nt we be taking away a roster spot for one of our young players..?..Everybody here on HFVan would be screaming blue murder if Benning had done that in July....We didn't even have NHL players playing on our 4th line last year, the PK was atrocious..It had to be upgraded (Green had a lot of say regarding the off season moves)..The Beagle/Roussel signings have been a positive (other than their contracts are a year too long).

You wouldn't have gone over 2 years in signing a UFA..?...Mmmmmm..I wonder how many players you would have been able to sign in the off season.. that would have been willing to go to a consensus bottom 5 team in, the midst of a rebuild (easy to say behind a computer keyboard)....and not overpay....How do you know that Val Filpulla would even want to play on a rebuilding team on the West coast..?...The player gets to decide..Do you understand that?

Also,you said you would have acquired a top 4 d-man...Do you have any idea what the price tag is for that?.What would you be prepared to give up off of the roster for a top 4 D..?...Again,good UFA d-men don't go to teams in the middle of a rebuild.

Every team has one or two anchor contracts...

When decimated by injuries and the brutal schedule things will go sideways...thats the way it goes for a rebuilding team..I have no illusions about that...I know that you're desperately clinging to the hope that the team is a tire fire...but its not happening.
Which young players? Is Bo Horvat in your top 6? I ask because he's played large chunks of this season dragging the corpse of Loui Eriksson around the ice. He's got 100 minutes with Schaller for goodness sakes.

I don't really see an issue with creating a lineup that is so good Goldobin isn't a defacto first liner...to each their own.

The Canucks PK% last year was 78.3, this year it's 78.0.....it is identical. I do not really agree with how you come to conclusions on what an NHL player is. Besides, one of your UFA signings Tim Schaller has 0 (zero) goals this year, non NHL Archibald and Gaunce both do. Tied with Beagle.

Yes, maybe Filppula doesn't come, look elsewhere, hell, I'd have been fine if they paid Beagle even more $$/year if they gave him a year or two. Bad teams stay bad when they hand out $$ and especially term to bottom of the lineup players.

You don't know anything about me, so please refrain from putting words in my mouth. I don't want this team to be a tire fire, I want them to be good sooner than later. Can't go wasting EP's prime paying $12m for a 4th line. There is so much junk on the team it's hard to see them getting out of mediocrity. I'd love to have the flexibility to go hard in the UFA market, but they're wasting a lot of roster spots and cap allocation on junk.
 
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Jay Cee

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Not sure, maybe the team has a deal in the plans for roster crunch or something or will go nuclear and waive. It is just weird timing for Gaudette to play a game or something and go home. Maybe I am reading too much into it but he has proven himself to be an NHL player, and can fill in bottom 6 role.
 

4Twenty

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Gaunce had 3 points in 3 games and was sent down. Beagle has 3 points on the year. Just sayin
Beagle has 1 goal and 3 assists this season in 21 games. In Brendan Gaunce's last 21 NHL games he has 5 goals and 3 assists. Archibald is also outproducing Beagle in his last 21 in the NHL as well.

I actually thought Archibald acquitted himself very well on the Sutter line last season. But for some reason the organization decided to pay triple what Archibald cost for Schaller who is the exact same age and was an AHL lifer before what appears to be a complete anomaly last season in Boston.
 

sting101

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Yes. They were doing really well at the end of last year chewing up tough minutes and doing exactly what you need from a 4th line at a minuscule cost. The results would be the exact same for a fraction of the cost.
Yes i agree.

I like Jay Beagle the person and the player but paying what they did and committing to that kind of term when they could just have Gaudette and Kero or even Dowd back in the mix with 2 million in savings and flexibility going forward was the smart move.
 

Hodgy

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If Beagle's contract is market, then why can't anyone provide any comparable players making the same amount over the same term, around the same age? If you can't find these comparable players, then you better shut up and stop wasting everyone's time.
 
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Pastor Of Muppetz

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Gaunce had 3 points in 3 games and was sent down. Beagle has 3 points on the year. Just sayin
..but we won't mention how much time Beagle missed with a broken forearm....Gaunce was passed on by every team in the league..Even if he went on waivers tomorrow, he would clear..Why are we still talking about this player?

Anyway..Gaudette..
 

F A N

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If Beagle's contract is market, then why can't anyone provide any comparable players making the same amount over the same term, around the same age? If you can't find these comparable players, then you better shut up and stop wasting everyone's time.

Leo Komarov signed a 4 year contract for $3M AAV.
 

Hodgy

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Leo Komarov signed a 4 year contract for $3M AAV.

Komarov has put up far better offensive numbers than Beagle and is three years younger, so they are not comparable. Komarov has generally been a third line player, while Beagle has been a fourth line player. Komarov isn't a great comparable.
 

tantalum

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Be interesting to see if the short stint in Utica gave Gaudette more confidence. From day one when I watch him I see a guy that seems to actively be thinking about what he needs to do and he runs out of time to make the decision with the speed of the NHL game "Ok I see my winger might be open so I can lay the puck over there or maybe it would be better to dump it but it looks like might have a lane...oh crap."
 
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