Speculation: Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XXXIV: Take Ted's Money

[BrooklynCapsFan]

I'll have to break out my Mojo production at C numbers I compiled a while back when I get home. IIRC, he had about half a season under Boudreau and produced at a 20-20-40 clip. Not as much time there under Hunter.

I remember you ran those but couldn't find them in our ridiculous system of 1,000 post multi-purpose threads

The caveat I'd bring up is that Johansson looks far worse today than he did as a rookie. And given Trotz' record with one dimensional forwards, I don't know if he's going to get coached up.

 

[Ajax1995]

Do you count getting top line minutes in Hershey as gone?

Good point. If he is not getting at least 3rd line minutes in DC I want him gone as in down in Hershey getting 1st or 2nd line minutes there. There is no realistic scenario where I want him traded away for the most part.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Good point. If he is not getting at least 3rd line minutes in DC I want him gone as in down in Hershey getting 1st or 2nd line minutes there. There is no realistic scenario where I want him traded away for the most part.

I would consider it in a trade for Thornton or Pavelski. But that's about it.

 

[Langway]

Somewhat strange to say but I think Wilson is too important to the team for them to perhaps do what's right and start him in Hershey. For starters: who replaces him? Brown? Even in a fourth-line role Wilson makes an impact so even if he's still not getting more minutes he's a factor and has already proven capable in a given NHL role.

I could see it more if there was a physical pugilist alternative for a depth spot but there isn't. Even if they were to sign Tootoo or Parros it's still not the same overall package. Wilson just on the forecheck is a factor and given how often Trotz talks about being harder to play against it's hard to see them making the call to demote him. I don't know that it would even be the right thing for him developmentally now that there's actual coaching at the NHL level. Practice should become much more meaningful and hopefully Lambert will be as organized and tailored to each forward's development as Reirden will be with the D.

 

[txpd]

I remember you ran those but couldn't find them in our ridiculous system of 1,000 post multi-purpose threads

The caveat I'd bring up is that Johansson looks far worse today than he did as a rookie. And given Trotz' record with one dimensional forwards, I don't know if he's going to get coached up.

How much of Johansson looking worse was the coaching? Oates made Ov worse, Alzner worse, Holtby worse just for starters.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

How much of Johansson looking worse was the coaching? Oates made Ov worse, Alzner worse, Holtby worse just for starters.

As I alluded to, Johansson is a soft, perimeter player with a low compete level. Those players haven't been known to thrive under Trotz.

 

[Ajax1995]

I would consider it in a trade for Thornton or Pavelski. But that's about it.

Sure but I don't know how realistic the chances of adding either of those guys is. Can the Caps afford to give us what it would likely take to land one of those guys and even if they can how likely is it that the Caps' package is going to winning bid? I just don't see it happening...

 

[Ajax1995]

Somewhat strange to say but I think Wilson is too important to the team for them to perhaps do what's right and start him in Hershey. For starters: who replaces him? Brown? Even in a fourth-line role Wilson makes an impact so even if he's still not getting more minutes he's a factor and has already proven capable in a given NHL role.

I could see it more if there was a physical pugilist alternative for a depth spot but there isn't. Even if they were to sign Tootoo or Parros it's still not the same overall package. Wilson just on the forecheck is a factor and given how often Trotz talks about being harder to play against it's hard to see them making the call to demote him. I don't know that it would even be the right thing for him developmentally now that there's actual coaching at the NHL level. Practice should become much more meaningful and hopefully Lambert will be as organized and tailored to each forward's development as Reirden will be with the D.

I couldn't agree less with any of this.

Sure he has shown he can fight at the NHL level but nothing else he does in the paltry amount of ice time he has gotten on the 4th line has had anything to do with winning hockey games for the most part. Lots of guys can fill that 4th line tough guy role.

And the idea what simply practicing in the NHL, regardless of the coaching staff, is good enough to successfully develop young players is absurd IMO. If that was the case the norm would be for young players to just hang around in the NHL as depth players instead of being sent back to juniors or to the minors but the reality is that pretty much never happens.

The argument against sending him back to juniors was he would simply rely on his size advantage too much and possibly develop bad habits as a result and that he might become too much of a target for wanna be OHL tough guys taking runs at him. Neither of these is going to be an issue at the AHL level.

He needs to play and if he is going to develop to anywhere close to his potential IMO he needs ice time. If he can earn 3rd line ice time in DC then great. If not top 6, if not top line, ice time in Hershey should go a long way towards helping him reach his potential.

 

[Hivemind]

Pretty much agree with Millhaus (re: Wilson). I wouldn't mind him being an NHL/AHL tweener this year. Obviously not as much as Orlov at the beginning of last season, but Wilson being called up to fill in for injuries (even if its just 4th line ice time) is fine with me, so long as he also gets a significant chunk of time in Hershey's top six.

Granted, I also don't see having a heavyweight enforcer as a necessity in the NHL anymore.

 

[txpd]

As I alluded to, Johansson is a soft, perimeter player with a low compete level. Those players haven't been known to thrive under Trotz.

on the other hand Trotz has a pretty long track record of success with Swedish players.

 

[txpd]

Pretty much agree with Millhaus (re: Wilson). I wouldn't mind him being an NHL/AHL tweener this year. Obviously not as much as Orlov at the beginning of last season, but Wilson being called up to fill in for injuries (even if its just 4th line ice time) is fine with me, so long as he also gets a significant chunk of time in Hershey's top six.

Granted, I also don't see having a heavyweight enforcer as a necessity in the NHL anymore.

I think that the league as a whole is already wary if not frightened of Wilson on the forecheck. He does hurt when he hits and he hits a lot. I can take or leave the fighting, but the hitting is another story. Its a game or a playoff series changer.

 

[Hivemind]

on the other hand Trotz has a pretty long track record of success with Swedish players.

Hornqvist and ????

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

on the other hand Trotz has a pretty long track record of success with Swedish players.

So Johansson's Swedishness trumps his weakness on the puck?

Does Trotz's track record with Russians tell us anything useful?

 

[Hivemind]

I think that the league as a whole is already wary if not frightened of Wilson on the forecheck. He does hurt when he hits and he hits a lot. I can take or leave the fighting, but the hitting is another story. Its a game or a playoff series changer.

I have to appreciate opinions like these. Impossible to refute because they stand upon nothing but speculation, personal feelings, and anecdotes.

Even if I bought into the premise of your argument, the simple refutation is they could simply call him up to be that player in the playoffs (just as they did in 2013). Unless you're willing to extend the premise to being that they'll miss the playoffs without him but be a Stanley Cup contender with him. Which in turn would make Wilson a great candidate for the Hart Trophy.

 

[txpd]

So Johansson's Swedishness trumps his weakness on the puck?

maybe is weakness on the puck is something that is coachable. the speed isn't

this is an interesting conversation. Johansson sucks because he is soft. Wilson isn't good enough because he is only tough....and the value of his toughness beyond fighting is being questioned at that. ok.

 

[Ajax1995]

I think that the league as a whole is already wary if not frightened of Wilson on the forecheck. He does hurt when he hits and he hits a lot. I can take or leave the fighting, but the hitting is another story. Its a game or a playoff series changer.

His possession numbers and quality of competition were the lowest of all the forwards on the team. That combination is far more of a game changer than an occasional hit.

I don't know what to tell you if you feel Wilson playing the same role as last season on the 4th line is going to be instrumental to the Caps winning hockey games, either short or long term...

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

maybe is weakness on the puck is something that is coachable. the speed isn't

this is an interesting conversation. Johansson sucks because he is soft. Wilson isn't good enough because he is only tough....and the value of his toughness beyond fighting is being questioned at that. ok.

I thought the conversation was about making broad assumptions about people based on their nationality.

 

[g00n]

Given what we've seen you can remove Wilson or MJ90 from the roster and it probably won't change much in terms of the Caps overall place in the standings. They're support players for the guys actually scoring the goals. But what's the ceiling for each and where are they in their development?

 

[RandyHolt]

My thoughts on MJ are that he is fine, a finesse 2/3 tweener.

That he simply became lazy following the lead of his linemates. Sure his coaches have sucked but he has speed, and was foolishly asked to fly up LW into a brick wall over and over. That is not his game.

I guarantee he would do fine between Chimera and Ward. Sure that doesn't mean much but its a place on our team for him.

I hope Trotz ends the lazy parade. Oates was such a quack I am not sure he noticed his best players never sweat, as he was more interested in their blade angle as they were watching play.

 

[Langway]

Sure he has shown he can fight at the NHL level but nothing else he does in the paltry amount of ice time he has gotten on the 4th line has had anything to do with winning hockey games for the most part. Lots of guys can fill that 4th line tough guy role.

How many of them can play ten plus minutes to enable Trotz to roll four lines? He really has shown more than fighting at the NHL level. He's already a pretty great energy player. If he was lost outside of fighting last season I'd agree on taking a step back and goosing him with AHL time but I don't think it's necessary. He's already too good at that minimal role and likely to continue to be unless perhaps the ankle injury hurts him. If that's a factor then, sure, the AHL might be best. Otherwise, I can't see it for a lot of reasons.

And the idea what simply practicing in the NHL, regardless of the coaching staff, is good enough to successfully develop young players is absurd IMO. If that was the case the norm would be for young players to just hang around in the NHL as depth players instead of being sent back to juniors or to the minors but the reality is that pretty much never happens.

The majority of developing prospects aren't the physical freak that Wilson is nor can they play a bottom six forward role while they develop. Simply practicing isn't the difference. Its the cumulative effect of everything he gets in the NHL vs. AHL for this type of player.

The argument against sending him back to juniors was he would simply rely on his size advantage too much and possibly develop bad habits as a result and that he might become too much of a target for wanna be OHL tough guys taking runs at him. Neither of these is going to be an issue at the AHL level.

Sure they would, particularly the second one. OHL 21 year-olds vs., say, career minor leaguers that have been toughs for years? That's a whole different level of danger potentially. (Not that I'd consider that to ever have been a valid concern either way.) Secondly, and more importantly, AHL D and team defense only provide so much of a learning experience. The bad habits wouldn't be as pronounced in the AHL but they'd still be there and he'd still have an adjustment period in the NHL in terms of physicality and overall pace. Sure, maybe he'd re-enter the NHL with more confidence in his skill level but without necessarily having the mental component in timing it's still a work in progress. Power forwards take time and they need to learn on the job to really become the sort of force they need to be. It's sort of inevitable.

I don't think the difference between ten minutes in the NHL and 14/15 is so significant that a different developmental plan becomes justified. I don't think 18 minutes in the AHL including PP time necessarily makes him a power forward any quicker. TOI ought to be earned across the board under Trotz so the opportunity for Wilson to play more will be there. If not, I'm more confident that this coaching staff will both make it clear what he needs to do and work with him to make those strides.

 

[g00n]

How many of them can play ten plus minutes to enable Trotz to roll four lines? He really has shown more than fighting at the NHL level. He's already a pretty great energy player. If he was lost outside of fighting last season I'd agree on taking a step back and goosing him with AHL time but I don't think it's necessary. He's already too good at that minimal role and likely to continue to be unless perhaps the ankle injury hurts him. If that's a factor then, sure, the AHL might be best. Otherwise, I can't see it for a lot of reasons.

The majority of developing prospects aren't the physical freak that Wilson is nor can they play a bottom six forward role while they develop. Simply practicing isn't the difference. Its the cumulative effect of everything he gets in the NHL vs. AHL for this type of player.

Sure they would, particularly the second one. OHL 21 year-olds vs., say, career minor leaguers that have been toughs for years? That's a whole different level of danger potentially. (Not that I'd consider that to ever have been a valid concern either way.) Secondly, and more importantly, AHL D and team defense only provide so much of a learning experience. The bad habits wouldn't be as pronounced in the AHL but they'd still be there and he'd still have an adjustment period in the NHL in terms of physicality and overall pace. Sure, maybe he'd re-enter the NHL with more confidence in his skill level but without necessarily having the mental component in timing it's still a work in progress. Power forwards take time and they need to learn on the job to really become the sort of force they need to be.

I don't think the difference between ten minutes in the NHL and 14/15 is so significant that a completely different developmental plan becomes justified. I don't think 18 minutes in the AHL including PP time necessarily makes him a power forward any quicker. TOI ought to be earned across the board under Trotz so the opportunity for Wilson to play more will be there. If not, I'm more confident that this coaching staff will both make it clear what he needs to do and work with him to make those strides.

Every word of this.

 

[Liberati0n*]

Hornqvist and ????

Still waiting for a response to this. txpd, come in, txpd....


(As if Swedishness were really some kind of attribute that had any relation to a coach's ability to develop players.)

 

[Ajax1995]

How many of them can play ten plus minutes to enable Trotz to roll four lines?

Pretty much all of your argument IMO is based around Wilson getting 10 minutes per game because Trotz is going to religiously roll 4 lines, which is what it would take for him to actually get those minutes, instead of the 7 minutes each game he got last year.

I can't reconcile how he is going to get those kind of minutes, especially since he doesn't PK and isn't likely to see PP team either, and Ovechkin and Backstrom are going to get their minutes. The guy who played Wilson's role on the Preds last season, Clune, played 8 minutes a game, and didn't get a jersey 20+ times. Would you be ok with Wilson being used similarly? I know I wouldn't.

Plus you are saying he's only going to get 14-15 minutes a game in Hershey. That isn't what I am saying at least. I want him in a top 6 if not top line and getting a good amount of PP time. To me that means 18+ minutes a game.

So you might be comparing 10 NHL minutes to 14-15 AHL minutes but I am comparing 7-8 NHL minutes to 18+ AHL minutes. Those are two very different arguments IMO.

 

[MW6]

So, would anyone like to rank the order how these packages would be of interest for you in a trade with Mike Green (some might need a little plus from the Caps)?

If you think that Green alone wouldn't bring back that return, feel free to suggest what would have to be added.

And if you don't want Green gone just leave this for those willing to. (Yes you, TXPD)

Daley + Eakin
Petry + Slepyshev
Lovejoy + DSP
Kindl + Tatar
Helm + Sproul
Braun + Tierney
Zubrus + Matteau

All these trades would also free up capspace for a better balanced lineup (FW/C/D), hopefully worked out in another trade involving Brouwer/Johansson + futures.

 

[442]

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/craig-custance/post?id=3598

Caps in 2-3 years?