Speculation: Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XXV

Status
Not open for further replies.

Langway

In den Wolken
Jul 7, 2006
32,263
8,890
I think you got the players to move right for the most part, though I'd keep Johansson around. Orlov & Carrick also seem like trade bait.

Real curious how they both make room for Kuznetsov in the spring (potentially) and where he would fit in the lineup.
 

trick9

Registered User
Jun 2, 2013
12,076
4,949
I don't think Caps would do the Ducks, Kings or Panthers ones, but they are pretty close.

Ducks would need to add better prospect or 1 of their good young players instead of Kerdiles.

Panthers would need to add something better to get both Fehr and Neuvirth. Goc is tempting but Clemmensen really doesn't hold any value and not really familiar with Petrovic but he'd need to be really good prospect to make it more even.

Kings trade would be pretty even if that 3rd becomes 2nd.
 

SimplySensational

Heard of Hough
Mar 27, 2011
18,839
6
VA
The winner loser verdict might still be out, but how can you really say the Caps made a “smart” move? Latta has appeared in 5 games and Erat is a 3rd line “aging” winger who has combined 6pts all assist. Forsberg, is still just 19 and has a high ceiling with 1goal and 4 assist this season while avg. just over 8 mins a game.

Apparently Caps fans need to start telling the world now that Erat has been on the 2nd and 1st line for a while now.
 

Mothra

The Groovy Guru
Jul 16, 2002
7,717
2
Parts Unknown
Visit site
I guess we are all getting confused by the definition of "unique".

Lets replace is with "rare". Guys like Karlsson, Letang, and Subban are not a dime a dozen. Thats the point here.

Im not confused by the definition of unique at all.....I think those that use it are just flat out using the wrong word. Back when he was at his best you could say he was unique....his production and play style was alone. Since then he hasnt had the same results and even his style isnt quite the same. At his best he added some nice hits to his always attacking style.

Since then more guys have come on the scene and his play has taken a step back, or more. If you want to say his stick skills/skating skills are rare I would agree....but most teams, good teams anyway, have a guy that can do what is asked of 52. He is an offensive dman.....its not like finding a 50+ point dman that plays really good D, thats what I call rare. The league over the last ~30 years always seem to have a few D that are very offensive and not very good on defense.

Im not saying he sucks...awful player....shouldnt be in NHL. As I have said a ton over the last few years....having a player like that, being relied on to play 25+ mins a night deep on a playoff run, is a problem. He hasnt shown the consistency in the playoffs to become a great player......and for a guy making that much dough and getting that much ice-time, at that position....he needs to be great. If the Caps ever go deep with him on the team, he will have a huge series or two....but isnt that what is expected of him?

Leetch has been brought up many times when talking about 52.....Leetch got better in the playoffs, at least thats how I remember him. While its pretty unfair to compare someone to a HoFer to some extent 52 needs to have that sort of playoff elevation of his play.....
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
69,649
14,131
New Bern, NC
I think you got the players to move right for the most part, though I'd keep Johansson around. Orlov & Carrick also seem like trade bait.

Real curious how they both make room for Kuznetsov in the spring (potentially) and where he would fit in the lineup.

orlov I can see. his waiver exempt time is passing and oates handedness thing really doesn't seem to fit him. carrick...I don't see that at all. his time is just starting and he is already overperforming his draft position and his age. he's not trade bait at all.
 

MW6

Registered User
Oct 21, 2011
1,397
47
Halland
I don't think Caps would do the Ducks, Kings or Panthers ones, but they are pretty close.

Ducks would need to add better prospect or 1 of their good young players instead of Kerdiles.

Panthers would need to add something better to get both Fehr and Neuvirth. Goc is tempting but Clemmensen really doesn't hold any value and not really familiar with Petrovic but he'd need to be really good prospect to make it more even.

Kings trade would be pretty even if that 3rd becomes 2nd.

I guess I admittedly tried to not be a homer fan, so regarding prospects/picks I didn't shoot for the moon. I also haven't watched all of the prospect, but their description fits the bill of what's lacking in the organization.

Johansson is the last piece I want to let go of the ones leaving. He'd be the safe net for essentially every rosterspot if he stayed, but he's not ideal for the 2RW which is probably where he'd end up.
If Laich + Fehr returns Williams, then h*ll yeah, or maybe UFA-to-be Vrbata, then Johansson gladly stays.
 

Mothra

The Groovy Guru
Jul 16, 2002
7,717
2
Parts Unknown
Visit site
orlov I can see. his waiver exempt time is passing and oates handedness thing really doesn't seem to fit him. carrick...I don't see that at all. his time is just starting and he is already overperforming his draft position and his age. he's not trade bait at all.

Orlov is an interesting case......other than trading the HoF bound FF, GMGM has generally moved on from young players a little late, IMO. Moving some of his assets earlier might have returned more....Orlov seems to have a pretty solid upside with many of the things you look for in a young D my guess is his value is pretty high in trade....paired with something else of value and the return could be very interesting
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
69,649
14,131
New Bern, NC
Im not confused by the definition of unique at all.....I think those that use it are just flat out using the wrong word. Back when he was at his best you could say he was unique....his production and play style was alone. Since then he hasnt had the same results and even his style isnt quite the same. At his best he added some nice hits to his always attacking style.

Since then more guys have come on the scene and his play has taken a step back, or more. If you want to say his stick skills/skating skills are rare I would agree....but most teams, good teams anyway, have a guy that can do what is asked of 52. He is an offensive dman.....its not like finding a 50+ point dman that plays really good D, thats what I call rare. The league over the last ~30 years always seem to have a few D that are very offensive and not very good on defense.

Im not saying he sucks...awful player....shouldnt be in NHL. As I have said a ton over the last few years....having a player like that, being relied on to play 25+ mins a night deep on a playoff run, is a problem. He hasnt shown the consistency in the playoffs to become a great player......and for a guy making that much dough and getting that much ice-time, at that position....he needs to be great. If the Caps ever go deep with him on the team, he will have a huge series or two....but isnt that what is expected of him?

Leetch has been brought up many times when talking about 52.....Leetch got better in the playoffs, at least thats how I remember him. While its pretty unfair to compare someone to a HoFer to some extent 52 needs to have that sort of playoff elevation of his play.....

oh we can argue this crap all day and night. but here is what I meant. green's skating faster, more explosive on excelleration and more maneuverable than players like letang or karlsson or subban. his ability to skate with the puck and handle it at high speed with his head up is again at a level above any of these players. he is not a prototype offense, jump into the play defenseman. he is a lead the rush defenseman. so, yea. there isn't another defenseman in the league that plays the kind of game mike green does.
 

Langway

In den Wolken
Jul 7, 2006
32,263
8,890
orlov I can see. his waiver exempt time is passing and oates handedness thing really doesn't seem to fit him. carrick...I don't see that at all. his time is just starting and he is already overperforming his draft position and his age. he's not trade bait at all.
Trade bait is perhaps overstating it but he ought to be available in the right deal if need be. It's a good story and all but the fit is a bit questionable in the near term. They don't really need another offensive-minded RD and particularly a fairly smallish one at that. Bowey is further away but I think he's the better fit long-term should his development stay on track and he refines his game. There's the whole RD handedness stuff but I can't see Carrick being any better an option than Orlov in the short-term. McPhee sold quickly on Eakin guessing that the timing was right and I think there are some parallels with Carrick's stock.

I'm alright with the defense for the time being. Schmidt's tendency to cough up the puck in the corners, Green's terrible body language and Oleksy's recovery speed are all concerns but I'm comfortable with the next few months being a long audition.

Edit: The perfect time to sell on Carrick could come after a strong WJC, assuming he's there.
 
Last edited:

Mothra

The Groovy Guru
Jul 16, 2002
7,717
2
Parts Unknown
Visit site
oh we can argue this crap all day and night. but here is what I meant. green's skating faster, more explosive on excelleration and more maneuverable than players like letang or karlsson or subban. his ability to skate with the puck and handle it at high speed with his head up is again at a level above any of these players. he is not a prototype offense, jump into the play defenseman. he is a lead the rush defenseman. so, yea. there isn't another defenseman in the league that plays the kind of game mike green does.

well then we disagree.....I think Letang and Karlsson are very similar in that regard....Karlsson looks a lot like the old 52 in some ways, except maybe not quite at lateral in his skating or exaggerated stick handling....
 

Mothra

The Groovy Guru
Jul 16, 2002
7,717
2
Parts Unknown
Visit site
Trade bait is perhaps overstating it but he ought to be available in the right deal if need be. It's a good story and all but the fit is a bit questionable in the near term. They don't really need another offensive-minded RD and particularly a fairly smallish one at that. Bowey is further away but I think he's the better fit long-term should his development stay on track and he refines his game. There's the whole RD handedness stuff but I can't see Carrick being any better an option than Orlov in the short-term. McPhee sold quickly on Eakin guessing that the timing was right and I think there are some parallels with Carrick's stock.

I'm alright with the defense for the time being. Schmidt's tendency to cough up the puck in the corners, Green's terrible body language and Oleksy's recovery speed are all concerns but I'm comfortable with the next few months being a long audition.

thats a good one.....he did make the move on him earlier than he had done before then.
 

Ridley Simon

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
18,125
9,066
Marin County — SF Bay Area, CA
Yeah but TX nailed it. This is exactly what I was getting at with the comparisons to Murphy and Gonchar (also more recently Semin)

Once he is gone and succeeding elsewhere the ardent haters will never comment on it because they will have moved onto the next goat in line.

Not really. First, there are very few "ardent haters" here. Just many pointing out the flaws in the 6mil mans game. Not sure why you get so butthurt when people don't agree with your sermons on players.

As far as losing Green?? That Would obviously depend on the return. If the Caps got a player that leads them to the Cup, I wouldn't give a rats willy what Green did on another team.

I don't get you and the Larry Murphy thing. That trade brought back Dino, an iconic player if there ever was one, and your namesake (who I can only assume you adore).

Why was that a bad decision, again?
 

BobRouse

Registered User
Mar 18, 2009
10,144
373
Not really. First, there are very few "ardent haters" here. Just many pointing out the flaws in the 6mil mans game. Not sure why you get so butthurt when people don't agree with your sermons on players.

As far as losing Green?? That Would obviously depend on the return. If the Caps got a player that leads them to the Cup, I wouldn't give a rats willy what Green did on another team.

I don't get you and the Larry Murphy thing. That trade brought back Dino, an iconic player if there ever was one, and your namesake (who I can only assume you adore).

Why was that a bad decision, again?

Really it was Gartner who brought back Dino. Great trade but thats not the point.

No what I am saying is that the fans did not appreciate what he brought and instead turned on him for what he didn't bring.

I agree if the right value comes along I'd consider a trade. But I'd say that about all players in the league outside of 2. Crosby and Ovechkin. These two transcend and bring immense revenue and spotlight to a team so I wouldn't trade them unless they wanted out.

However I get the sense that people want Green moved for the sake of him being gone. Its the exact same vibe as Semin. They feel it would be addition by subtraction if thats the case and I don't agree with it.
 

BrooklynCapsFan

No more choking!
Oct 23, 2002
17,872
60
Brooklyn, New York
Really it was Gartner who brought back Dino. Great trade but thats not the point.

No what I am saying is that the fans did not appreciate what he brought and instead turned on him for what he didn't bring.

I agree if the right value comes along I'd consider a trade. But I'd say that about all players in the league outside of 2. Crosby and Ovechkin. These two transcend and bring immense revenue and spotlight to a team so I wouldn't trade them unless they wanted out.

However I get the sense that people want Green moved for the sake of him being gone. Its the exact same vibe as Semin. They feel it would be addition by subtraction if thats the case and I don't agree with it.

Semin is gone because he's not worth $7 million a year. Green's not worth $6. Let's hope there's a similar outcome.
 

Ajax1995

Registered User
Dec 9, 2002
8,797
859
No what I am saying is that the fans did not appreciate what he brought and instead turned on him for what he didn't bring.

That is pretty much par for the course for many around here concerning many higher end players. I definitely felt that was the case with Semin and yes Gonchar and Murphy got the same treatment in the more distant past.
 

Ridley Simon

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
18,125
9,066
Marin County — SF Bay Area, CA
Really it was Gartner who brought back Dino. Great trade but thats not the point.

No what I am saying is that the fans did not appreciate what he brought and instead turned on him for what he didn't bring.

I agree if the right value comes along I'd consider a trade. But I'd say that about all players in the league outside of 2. Crosby and Ovechkin. These two transcend and bring immense revenue and spotlight to a team so I wouldn't trade them unless they wanted out.

However I get the sense that people want Green moved for the sake of him being gone. Its the exact same vibe as Semin. They feel it would be addition by subtraction if thats the case and I don't agree with it.

I was never a Semin basher. I wish we'd found a way to keep him....but as BCF says, not at 7mil a year. I don't see him being worth that. 5m for sure. 7m, no thanks. Too much money for his mercurial play.

Green is the same thing. Too much money for mercurial play. I base that mercurial play in his head, not his game. He is simply not consistent, and that is a mental thing. Yes, he was hurt a lot...so perhaps that's part of it. But his great stretch last year would possibly say otherwise, wouldn't it?

I watch his interviews, I read his comments, and he seems dim. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. So.....I am very open to improving the teams #1 defender...but I have never said that has to be by trading Green. If you look at my posts, I have long hammered that the Caps spend too much money on their forwards. If we could flip that and get another 6mil d-man that is worth that, and is a true #1 guy, then Green as a #2 is fine (maybe even great?) in that instance.

My beef with Green is more a beef with the structure of the team in the financial sense, which forces him into a role I feel he is not suited. So if we need to trade him to get that true #1, then so be it. But that wouldn't be my first course of action to correct the problems on defense.

Do you follow me?
 

BobRouse

Registered User
Mar 18, 2009
10,144
373
That is pretty much par for the course for many around here concerning many higher end players. I definitely felt that was the case with Semin and yes Gonchar and Murphy got the same treatment in the more distant past.

Yeah it is. I'm guilty of it too or at least have been in the past. I guess its human nature to always want "moar"

I think thats why there are coaches like Bill Parcels, Nick Saban etc who become mercenaries.

Thats why Spiderman, despite all his heroics, gets painted as a menace.

We learn to love certain qualities at first but over time our expectations outgrow reality and we turn on those very same heros we used to love.

Semin is gone because he's not worth $7 million a year. Green's not worth $6. Let's hope there's a similar outcome.

This is what I mean. You feel the cap space alone makes us a better team. I don't agree with this.

I was never a Semin basher. I wish we'd found a way to keep him....but as BCF says, not at 7mil a year. I don't see him being worth that. 5m for sure. 7m, no thanks. Too much money for his mercurial play.

Green is the same thing. Too much money for mercurial play. I base that mercurial play in his head, not his game. He is simply not consistent, and that is a mental thing. Yes, he was hurt a lot...so perhaps that's part of it. But his great stretch last year would possibly say otherwise, wouldn't it?

I watch his interviews, I read his comments, and he seems dim. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. So.....I am very open to improving the teams #1 defender...but I have never said that has to be by trading Green. If you look at my posts, I have long hammered that the Caps spend too much money on their forwards. If we could flip that and get another 6mil d-man that is worth that, and is a true #1 guy, then Green as a #2 is fine (maybe even great?) in that instance.

My beef with Green is more a beef with the structure of the team in the financial sense, which forces him into a role I feel he is not suited. So if we need to trade him to get that true #1, then so be it. But that wouldn't be my first course of action to correct the problems on defense.

Do you follow me?

Yes Semin is not worth the contract he got in Carolina. I don't like the term at all.

But there is a difference. Semin seemed to rub some people the wrong way. Clearly guys like Brouwer, Steckel, Bradley and others have already publically aired dirty laundry. He was never a big fan of local media either. I think that really hurt him.

Also Semin is a good player but he isn't as rare as a player like Green at their respective positions. Not many dmen can do the things he can.

But here is the BIG thing ...Green is still getting better. Dmen take a great deal of time to reach their peak (Murphy, Gonchar, Stevens all got better around 30)

Semin on the other hand..well scorers like him peak in their mid 20s and its downhill from there.

We aren't in a desperate cap situation and next year we will be fine.

I just get the sense some people would rather just waive him and use the cap space to bring in "other guys" . The grass is greener mentaliy.
 
Last edited:

BrooklynCapsFan

No more choking!
Oct 23, 2002
17,872
60
Brooklyn, New York
This is what I mean. You feel the cap space alone makes us a better team. I don't agree with this.

You don't think cap space makes us a better team because you support moves like selling prospects for redundant, unproductive wingers. So yes, if you use your cap space stupidly, you won't improve the team.
 

BobRouse

Registered User
Mar 18, 2009
10,144
373
You don't think cap space makes us a better team because you support moves like selling prospects for redundant, unproductive wingers. So yes, if you use your cap space stupidly, you won't improve the team.

It depends on what you refer to as stupid use of cap space.

I think moves like signing Mark Streit, Lecavalier etc ..players past their primes to expensive irrevocable (NMC) contracts is stupid.

Green is still in his prime and going to get better.

I personally don't believe the Caps have any contracts that I consider "bad" and always felt the GMGM generally is pretty good with the Cap and responsible unlike teams such as Toronto, NYR, Philly, Montreal who seem to make tons of bad moves annually (IMO)
 

BrooklynCapsFan

No more choking!
Oct 23, 2002
17,872
60
Brooklyn, New York
It depends on what you refer to as stupid use of cap space.

I think moves like signing Mark Streit, Lecavalier etc ..players past their primes to expensive irrevocable (NMC) contracts is stupid.

Green is still in his prime and going to get better.

I personally don't believe the Caps have any contracts that I consider "bad" and always felt the GMGM generally is pretty good with the Cap and responsible unlike teams such as Toronto, NYR, Philly, Montreal who seem to make tons of bad moves annually (IMO)

Mike Green will become better offensively than he was in 2009? And better defensively than he was in 2010?

No bad contracts my ass. We've got $19.5 million in cap space dedicated to offensive players who have so far provided 6 goals and 16 assists in 64 GP.
 

BobRouse

Registered User
Mar 18, 2009
10,144
373
Mike Green will become better offensively than he was in 2009? And better defensively than he was in 2010?

No bad contracts my ass. We've got $19.5 million in cap space dedicated to offensive players who have so far provided 6 goals and 16 assists in 64 GP.

Better as a player overall. Better in his own zone and smarter with the puck. Better positioning without the puck. Its a maturation process for learning a very difficult position. Stevens never scored as much when he was winning cups than he did earlier in his career but I always thought overall he became a better player. I felt that way with most dmen it seems (Pronger is another)

Comon now...its been not even a quarter of a season and you are basing contracts on that? I think you need to take in account the entire body of work and see other comprable players out there to truly assess what is a "bad" or "good" contract.

For instance..give me Brouwer at 3.5 mil over Clarkson or Hartnell at $5 mil.

Erat looks to be fitting in great with the first line. Despite getting hardly any PP time I can see him start to fill up the scoresheet
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->