Speculation: Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XXV

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trick9

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Jun 2, 2013
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I don't see any problem about this Fehr situation until he himself sees one. This time has just looked good recently and he happens to be the odd man out.

In case injuries happen, he is very good choice to back them up because he can play pretty much anywhere. Obviously not as effective in 4th line role or C role but still a solid choice there too. There aren't many other better options to have from a 13th forward.
 

txpd

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Jan 25, 2003
69,649
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I am not sure how downhill it is. Mike in his offensive prime, we haven't gotten out of the second around. With an offensive juggernaut which fit him perfectly.

Maybe its not too steep a hill, unless you think Green's bad habits have ruined Carlson forever. There is a reason Carlson makes 4M. You just don't get to see them showcased because Green is a fixture on the PP.

selective memory, rh. the big downside to green has been his injuries. because of the games he has missed Carlson has had numerous opportunity to show he can produce on the pp. he hasn't.

last season Carlson was 6th on the caps in pptoi. only 6 players played over 100 minutes total on the pp. Ward was 7th at 74 minutes and Johansson 8th at 56.

Carlson had 5 pp points. Green had 14. btw...Green ranked 5th in pp toi total for the season. Ward had 3pp points and Johansson 4.

Carlson has never shown to be much of a power play producer. His scoring has always been at even strength taking advantage of the opposing offensive players.
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
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His skill set is not unique.....this isnt 3-4 years ago

To me its pretty clear he isnt the QB on the PP these days, he is more an option. The PP runs off the half-boards....that position is the QB

I can accept that. (see the rare thing where someone on these boards admits someone else is right). I should rephrase that. Green is the breakout and the zone entry. Once the puck is in the zone it goes to 19. It usually goes back and forth between 19 and 52 til they pull the trigger on something.

One more point of value. Those that don't like Mike Green are often quick to point out his poor production in the playoffs and the resulting playoff exit for the Caps. That's a fact, Jack.

When Green gets compromised or taken out or plays like crap, the Caps lose. He is a main cog. When he plays well, they win. The Caps were one win away from the ECF playing hunter hockey. Green had a fine playoffs when Hunter would let him play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHA60SNNfws

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W34Kz9HxMic
 

Carlzner

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Oct 31, 2011
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BrooklynCapsFan

No more choking!
Oct 23, 2002
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Mike Green is off to a horrific start. He's on a 60pt pace despite this.



Can't be refuted here. Power Play points and goals shouldn't count ever. Any bum can produce on the PP. Thats why I'm a proponent of buying out Ovechkin and replacing him with Jay Beagle as the trigger man on the PP.

You do realize the even strength argument is the same one people use against Ovechkin right?

Its stupid. There have been seasons where players like Lemieux and Stamkos have scored 50% of their points on the PP.

Also Oleksy is a good player it turns out. NBTW is fuming at this thought since his contract is ruining the team.

Futhermore Green has 3 ES assists in his last 4 games. Not huge but a good trend for sure.

He's on a 49 point pace.

PP production is important. Mike Green earns $6 million to drive the offense in all situations and play solid D. Stankos once scored 43% of his points on the PP. That was his career high and he's gone down since then. Lemieux's career high was 49%. Green's at 67% right now. That's at Dick Tarnstrom levels.
 
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Halpysback*

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It's simply impossible to have a good transition game without Mike Green. That's why no other team in the league has good transition game or has gone further in the playoffs than the caps in the last 8 years. There's only one straw that can stir the drink in this league and that straw happens to be Mike Green, so we must accept him no matter what his warts may be.
 

Halpysback*

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I can accept that. (see the rare thing where someone on these boards admits someone else is right). I should rephrase that. Green is the breakout and the zone entry. Once the puck is in the zone it goes to 19. It usually goes back and forth between 19 and 52 til they pull the trigger on something.

One more point of value. Those that don't like Mike Green are often quick to point out his poor production in the playoffs and the resulting playoff exit for the Caps. That's a fact, Jack.

When Green gets compromised or taken out or plays like crap, the Caps lose. He is a main cog. When he plays well, they win. The Caps were one win away from the ECF playing hunter hockey. Green had a fine playoffs when Hunter would let him play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHA60SNNfws

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W34Kz9HxMic

Green did not do anything to distinguish himself during #hunterhockey. Alzner and Carlson played the toughest minutes. Him and Hamrlik played like a very good 2nd pairing. All the stuff that makes Mike Green super awesome gets routinely curtailed in the playoffs. He doesn't skate the puck the way he does when he's beasting during the regular season, he doesn't generate an amazing transition game, even his PP work isn't stellar. He either plays really conservative and has moderate success doing that or gets overwhelmed and becomes a trainwreck. We can get someone else to play at the same level as a conservative Mike Green during the playoffs, and that player can have the additional benefit of being cheaper, or nastier, or more durable, or less prone to brain/laziness farts.
 

Liberati0n*

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There's only one straw that can stir the drink in this league and that straw happens to be Mike Green, so we must accept him no matter what his warts may be.

You missed a good opportunity. You should've said, "There's only one straw man that can stir the drink in this league."
 

Mothra

The Groovy Guru
Jul 16, 2002
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I can accept that. (see the rare thing where someone on these boards admits someone else is right). I should rephrase that. Green is the breakout and the zone entry. Once the puck is in the zone it goes to 19. It usually goes back and forth between 19 and 52 til they pull the trigger on something.

One more point of value. Those that don't like Mike Green are often quick to point out his poor production in the playoffs and the resulting playoff exit for the Caps. That's a fact, Jack.

When Green gets compromised or taken out or plays like crap, the Caps lose. He is a main cog. When he plays well, they win. The Caps were one win away from the ECF playing hunter hockey. Green had a fine playoffs when Hunter would let him play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHA60SNNfws

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W34Kz9HxMic

Here is the thing.....much of the pro-52 crowd points to uniqueness or point to being a finalist for Norris a few seasons ago......and he has never been that player in the playoffs. He has had very good games and you could even say a good series or two.....but even then he isnt the player that is talked about like a once in a generation player. His best playoffs are still not close to what his best was during the regular season.

To say..."when he produces the Caps do well and when he doesnt they do poorly" is saying what? that he is inconsistent? Yes, the team relies on him to produce...and when he does they do well generally. Why is that an argument for the pro-52 crowd? Him going into a funk or getting hurt is a bad thing....not a good thing or an excuse.

Ive said for 2-3 seasons its time to move on from him and use that space more wisely. Either in a way to get a real top shelf D that also plays the PP or a cheaper specialist guy who is decent in his end. I dont see what he does that is so unique....he is simply an offensive dman. He has slicker than most moves but thats turned out to be a 2 edged sword.....the actual results, they arent that unique
 

BobRouse

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Mar 18, 2009
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He's on a 49 point pace.

PP production is important. Mike Green earns $6 million to drive the offense in all situations and play solid D. Stankos once scored 43% of his points on the PP. That was his career high and he's gone down since then. Lemieux's career high was 49%. Green's at 67% right now. That's at Dick Tarnstrom levels.

Does Ovechkin earn $9.5 million to drive the offense in all situations AND play solid D too then?

Mike Green needs to play better than he is right now. No doubt he will. 15 games is a tiny sample size.

49 point pace...ok...the last NHL full season (2011-2012) you know how many Dmen eclipsed 49 pts? 5. Thats still pretty elite and this is with Green playing "poorly"

It's simply impossible to have a good transition game without Mike Green. That's why no other team in the league has good transition game or has gone further in the playoffs than the caps in the last 8 years. There's only one straw that can stir the drink in this league and that straw happens to be Mike Green, so we must accept him no matter what his warts may be.

Agreed. Also in this league it is impossible to score Goalz without Ovechkin. Clearly Ovechkin isn't anything special.
 

Halpysback*

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The Ovechkin equivalent of playoff Mike Green would be .65PPG and one half assed hit per game.
 

BrooklynCapsFan

No more choking!
Oct 23, 2002
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Does Ovechkin earn $9.5 million to drive the offense in all situations AND play solid D too then?

Mike Green needs to play better than he is right now. No doubt he will. 15 games is a tiny sample size.

49 point pace...ok...the last NHL full season (2011-2012) you know how many Dmen eclipsed 49 pts? 5. Thats still pretty elite and this is with Green playing "poorly"

Ovechkin is paid to score a lot of goals. Which he does, so i'm not sure why you'd bring him up.

Not sure why you'd compare 49 points today to 49 points 2 years ago. Just look at where he is in the league right now. Tied for 15th in dman scoring. And tied for last in dman goal scoring.
 

BobRouse

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Mar 18, 2009
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The Ovechkin equivalent of playoff Mike Green would be .65PPG and one half assed hit per game.

Didn't Mike Green outscore Ovechkin in the playoffs last year?

Ovechkin is paid to score a lot of goals. Which he does, so i'm not sure why you'd bring him up.

Not sure why you'd compare 49 points today to 49 points 2 years ago. Just look at where he is in the league right now. Tied for 15th in dman scoring. And tied for last in dman goal scoring.

So Ovechkin gets paid $9.5 million to score a lot of goals and play mediocre D.

Green gets paid $6 million to perpetually be at the top of scoring for Dmen and play outstanding D.

And you know this how?

Again he is tied for 15th in scoring right NOW. Despite playing "poorly". We shall see how it looks at the end of the season. I have a good feeling he will climb the charts.

OK last year...he was tied 1st in goals and 18th in scoring. He missed 13 games and every dman (sans Letang) ahead of him played at least 6 more games. Despite missing all those games he finished 1st in goals.

Yes he was injured for a couple seasons but when he is healthy (like he has been for most of last year and this year) he is easily a top 5 scoring Dman.
 
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CapitalsCupReality

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Feb 27, 2002
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The PP is clicking and 19 leads the NHL in PP points.....thats the QB of the PP. They get the puck to him....he sets the plays in motion....he is where they move the puck to settle back down....which is all I said when you went on your 52 crusade.

52 is not unique....he is an offensive minded dman. What makes him so different than Subban, Letang, Karlsson...to name a couple offensive minded guys....not to mention the all around guys that are just way better hockey players (Suter, Weber, etc)

Did you really just name the extremely small number of Norris trophy winner/candidates for D and suggest they're NOT unique?

52 certainly has a unique skillset. If not unique, he's at least got a skillset that's extremely rare and is associated to players who are recognized as elite. Hate on his injuries or his play as you will, but at least be honest to yourself.
 
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Roughing

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Oct 11, 2010
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I have no problem with Green's offensive production at all. I think his defense, for what, $6.5M, is substandard. Hasn't Carlzner been asked to handle the most pressure filled minutes in recent times? So, why did MG get PAID? It's like Laich. Like the player, just not at the cost.
 

BobRouse

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Mar 18, 2009
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I guess we are all getting confused by the definition of "unique".

Lets replace is with "rare". Guys like Karlsson, Letang, and Subban are not a dime a dozen. Thats the point here.
 

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
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I have no problem with Green's offensive production at all. I think his defense, for what, $6.5M, is substandard. Hasn't Carlzner been asked to handle the most pressure filled minutes in recent times? So, why did MG get PAID? It's like Laich. Like the player, just not at the cost.

Absolutely, you hate to see your high $$ players with dramatic holes in their games. McPheeBuilt!
 

Halpysback*

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Agreed. Also in this league it is impossible to score Goalz without Ovechkin. Clearly Ovechkin isn't anything special.

Because Ovechkin and Mike Green are the same thing, especially in the playoffs. And Mike Green can be the specialest player in the world, it only matters to the extent where his specialness helps you put together a winning team.

If Ovechkin consistently gets hurt, consistently fails to deliver on his biggest responsibilities in the playoffs (which for him are creating offense and being physical), and there is a reasonable expectation that the team can be reconfigured to replace what he brings and be better without him, then yes it does make hockey sense to move him, even though there's a business dynamic that separates Ovechkin from Green and makes his trade a non-starter. Green does not make Leonsis $$$ the way Ovechkin does. And being bad defensively for a winger and a defenseman are two different things. The reigning Conne Smythe trophy winner is much worse defensively than Ovechkin, yet that team had Johnny Oduya provide Mike Green level playoff play for them and got away with it by sheltering him on the 2nd pairing.
 

Capathetic

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May 26, 2011
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I always thought Green would settle into a Brian Campbell type of player. Look at these "rare" pmd players being mentioned.

Karlsson- on fire but being laughed at each time he hands an opposing forward the puck in front of the net. I've seen two plays alone this year.

Subban-Awesome but in the dog house for his poor defense.

Letang- he seems to get injured just as much as Green and doesn't have the shot like #52. It's easy to assume he gets a few freebies playing with that lineup. Also was abused in the playoffs the last two years.

He also won the caps an overtime game two last year.

Yes he needs to play better. IMO the goals will start coming. There will be some very open looks for him as teams try and adjust to the pp. I remember last year vs the jets and they were just giving him open shots and he made them pay. Same thing late in the year vs Boston, the game Fehr had that ot game winner. I was sure Greenie would get the hat trick and he almost did as fehr put away his rebound Rask couldn't handle.
 

Fitlanbox

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Jul 10, 2011
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When you have borderline 2.5 top 4 defensemen that play top 4 quality D, you can't make 6 mil per year and not be a significant contributor to defensive play.

I'm not saying Green does not deserve a spot or anything like that, but given our current D core and our cap situation, this team can't afford to have an entire pairing that isn't good defensively.

Green is a monster on the PP, and you will never hear me say otherwise, but can we stop pretending that because of that he deserves a ton of ES time and that he is a good partner away from being one of the best in the league? There is no shame in being a PP specialist, and thats what Green is becoming.
 

MW6

Registered User
Oct 21, 2011
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Re-tool/core change

Despite looking better the last few games I still think this team needs a core change, or a re-tool if you'd like. I feel that whatever plan GMGM claims he has, isn't working. The balance is way off in the team (forwards-heavy) and it seems constructed from out-to-in instead of the other way around.

This is of course not even close to happening, but if I could wish in a semi-reality world, this is what I would want. So it shouldn't be taken to seriously!

:ducks Mike Green and Stanislav Galiev

for

:caps Francois Beauchemin and Nicolas Kerdiles


Anaheim get a PPQB that they need badly for their nonfunctional PP (6,9% 30th in the leauge), Boudreau reunites with Green whom he already know how to use. Galiev adds to their weak LW prospect depth.
Caps get a more experienced two-way D with some snarl in him for Alzner to watch and for Carlson to pair up with. Kerdiles is a center that instantaniously would be the Caps best C prospect, seems to have 2B/3C kind of upside.



:nucks Troy Brouwer and Tomas Kundratek

for

:caps Kevin Bieksa


Vancouver needs a rightshooting powerforward for their top-6, someone who can play with the Sedin's that doesn't require the puck so much and can play in front of the net on their PP. Tanev seems ready for top-4 minutes on their backend and Kundratek showed last year to be able to handle bottompairing minutes and is a capable PP2QB if they need him to be.
Bieksa slides in with Alzner to round out the Caps top-4 and adds more grit on the backend along with some puckmoving abilities. I'll much rather have him be the rolemodel for Carlson then Green.



:kings Brooks Laich and Marcus Johansson ($1M in salary retained)

for

:caps Justin Williams, Kyle Clifford, Nick Shore and a 3rd


Kings improve their top-9 a lot, but add some salary. Caps retain half of Johansson's contract to make it work cap-wise for the Kings.
Caps get some more grit for the 4th line in Clifford whom eventually might be Chimera's replacement. In Williams they get an experienced cup winner for the second line, known to come through in the playoffs.
Nick Shore adds to the Caps organizational depth of prospects and a Caps add an 80-ish pick in the next draft.


:panthers Eric Fehr and Michal Neuvirth

for

:caps Marcel Goc, Scott Clemensen and Alex Petrovic


The Panthers are giving up to rentals for a goalie to push Markstrom and the revived Eric Fehr for their RW/C, both signed through next year. Goc, who's currently their 2C, can replaced in the line up by Fleischmann to open up a spot for Fehr on the right side.
Goc would fit really well with Chimera and Ward on the 3rd line and Clemensen is just moved to give Holtby an occasional breather and open up a roster spot for Neuvirth. Petrovic is the kind of defenseman that's lacking on the Caps. Big and mean, while still capable of contributing offensively and a good skater for his size.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

- That's 6 roster players exchanged in 4 trades that would totally change look of this franchise. IMO it gives the line up great balance from the top down and also a good mix of youth vs experience. The overall depth had to be sacrificed for better overall balance, so the lineup is pretty sensitive for injuries.

- Caps need to re-sign Grabovski to avoid having a big hole at C next year.

- For the best effect ideally all trades have to be completed, but atleast the two first ones need to happen to acomplish anything.

- Caps add some quality prospects in Kerdiles, Petrovic, Shore, while only losing Kundratek and Galiev.

- This line up is based on Kuznetsov being hereat the end of the year, and if he comes it won't be as early as the trade deadline so they'll be a winger short from the LAK-WSH trade until his arrival.

- Sometimes the value in a trade is getting rid of a contract, so the return might not reflect the true value of the player/s leaving i.e. Brooks Laich/Neuvirth.

FORWARDS
Evgeny Kuznetsov ($3.750m) / Nicklas Backstrom ($6.700m) / Alex Ovechkin ($9.538m)
Martin Erat ($4.500m) / Mikhail Grabovski ($3.000m) / Justin Williams ($3.650m)
Jason Chimera ($1.750m) / Marcel Goc ($1.700m) ($0.786m) / Joel Ward ($3.000m)
Kyle Clifford ($1.075m) / Michael Latta / Tom Wilson ($1.294m)
Aaron Volpatti ($0.575m) / Jay Beagle ($0.900m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Karl Alzner ($2.800m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Francois Beauchemin ($3.500m) /John Carlson ($3.967m)
Alexander Urbom ($0.869m) / Steven Oleksy ($0.542m)
Dmitry Orlov ($0.900m) /
GOALTENDERS
Braden Holtby ($1.850m)
Scott Clemmensen ($1.200m)
RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS (1.555% of upper limit)
Marcus Johansson ($1.000m—50.0%)
------
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,445,962; BONUSES: $400,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,254,038

Thanks for reading, feel free to tweak, comment or just let me know of there's anything to it!

Flame away!! :help:
 
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artilector

Registered User
Jan 11, 2006
8,351
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Despite looking better the last few games I still think this team needs a core change, or a re-tool if you'd like. I feel that whatever plan GMGM claims he has, isn't working. The balance is way off in the team (forwards-heavy) and it seems constructed from out-to-in instead of the other way around.

This is of course not even close to happening, but if I could wish in a semi-reality world, this is what I would want.

Good work!

I'll admit, I don't see enough of some of these players, esp. from Western conf., to have a real informed opinion esp. about trade values... but I do see that we'd get rid of fat contracts while becoming a lot stronger on defense, so I'd definitely like that..

edit: I would want to hold on to MJ, if possible. He's maybe not quite 1st line or 2C material, but he is still good value for what he is paid.. Williams may be good, but he is older, too.. I think I'd rather just ship off Laich somewhere by himself, maybe for a good PK-er, something like that.
 
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