Accountability and transparency of referrees

Xanlet

Registered User
Apr 16, 2013
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Baseball is no different. Every single ump is known for having their own definition of the strike zone
Speaking of baseball...

It's always amazing to me how obvious it is that professional sports leagues purposely favor certain teams for business reasons, yet so many fans trip over themselves to run cover for them. Results are either nudged or outright pushed in certain directions by league officials. The evidence is overwhelming.
 

gstommylee

Registered User
Jan 31, 2012
14,400
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Speaking of baseball...

It's always amazing to me how obvious it is that professional sports leagues purposely favor certain teams for business reasons, yet so many fans trip over themselves to run cover for them. Results are either nudged or outright pushed in certain directions by league officials. The evidence is overwhelming.


Just about any sport has their share of terrible officials/refs, Basketball, Soccer, baseball, football and hockey all have them. I seen my share of crappy officiated games that go against my sports teams. I seen one sided called games.
 

abo9

Registered User
Jun 25, 2017
9,081
7,174
It's so painfully obvious that "letting the guys play" is just a cover to make them conplacent and then its easy to call a penslty whenever you need it to the team you want

theres nothing to do about it. Big slash in the face = nothing
Small love tap on the shoulder = hooking

both are penalties, but obly made sense to call for the ref...
 

gstommylee

Registered User
Jan 31, 2012
14,400
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It's so painfully obvious that "letting the guys play" is just a cover to make them conplacent and then its easy to call a penslty whenever you need it to the team you want

theres nothing to do about it. Big slash in the face = nothing
Small love tap on the shoulder = hooking

both are penalties, but obly made sense to call for the ref...

The issue is two sided and doesn't have a simple solution. There's a fine line between calling penalties when it happens and calling penalties to the point of the player can't even do anything with out the refs calling blowing the whistle on some infraction.
 

ItsFineImFine

Registered User
Aug 11, 2019
3,534
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You can read Ken Dryden's book from the 70s, it's part of NHL culture and Bettman and Daly don't seem to care to change it. Fact is there's no transparency or little accountability because the director of reffing is not some independent department and it's overseen by Hockey Ops (same as the DoPS) and Hockey Ops is run by Colin Campbell who is iboth a dinosaur and has been in charge of it for a long time.

The same people run the game and think it's fine and think it's normal so this is the normal we get as a result.
 

gstommylee

Registered User
Jan 31, 2012
14,400
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You can read Ken Dryden's book from the 70s, it's part of NHL culture and Bettman and Daly don't seem to care to change it. Fact is there's no transparency or little accountability because the director of reffing is not some independent department and it's overseen by Hockey Ops (same as the DoPS) and Hockey Ops is run by Colin Campbell who is iboth a dinosaur and has been in charge of it for a long time.

The same people run the game and think it's fine and think it's normal so this is the normal we get as a result.

The other leagues are the same. NFL is pretty bad to where some don't like being told how they should call the games and just don't call it. One of the conference final game in the NFL came down to 1 non call that changed the out come and got a rule change and 2 years ago that same situation that caused the rule change to happen the officials just don't bother to call it.
 

gstommylee

Registered User
Jan 31, 2012
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That would be a lot easier without a mechanism designed to make games artificially close.

Close games are good and all, but I'd rather the product be legit.

Again goes to the fine line between letting everything go to calling it so tight that it actually slows down the game. Its just a matter of finding the proper balance. Game management isn't something that will ever go away in sports no matter what league it is.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,515
46,230
Game management is essential to the game. No one would like the end result of calling every single thing as written in the rule book. If you look back at any playoff game and retroactively assigned penalties, you'd be lucky to see 15 minutes of 5v5. The truth is, no manageable set of rules will, when called to the letter, lead to good hockey. It lacks the flexibility that a good game needs. The NHL and refs understand this, but fans don't seem to. This approach works better in far more structured games like baseball.

I've likened it to Godel's incompleteness theorems, except for hockey. Not a perfect analogy but it's pretty close. The game is just far too complex, with too many variations in play patterns, for a reasonable rule book to be able to be called mechanically like some seem to want.

Now that isn't to say that there aren't improvements to be made and that certain refs are anything other than complete trash. That missed call on Perry was pretty egregious. But the answer certainly isn't to call the rule book to the letter.

The problem isn't that everything needs to be called, it's that they let even the most egregious of offenses go.

You want to let a tiny little hook that didn't affect the play at all go? No problem. But when a guy is trying to drive to the net and he has a defender water skiing on him and it's still not called, that's suddenly a problem.

You want to let a guy get away with one single crosscheck in front of the net and give him a verbal warning of "do it a second time and you're gone"? No problem. When when a defenseman is allowed to take multiple crosschecks to the back of a player, follow it up by face washing when said player turns around to tell him off, and the ref STILL doesn't call him? That's an issue.

Do I want 15 PPs per game? No. But if a team is committing so many egregious fouls that it warrants 5 or 6 PPs in a game? Yes, call that. Don't let 4 of them go just so you can say you're "letting them play".

So no, it's not quite as black and white as you suggest in your first paragraph. It's not about "calling everything" instead. It's about calling the egregious ones, including the Perry high stick, while "managing" the game by giving the players a bit of leeway on plays that don't really affect a play in any tangible way.
 

Machinehead

GoAwayKakko
Jan 21, 2011
141,167
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NYC
Again goes to the fine line between letting everything go to calling it so tight that it actually slows down the game. Its just a matter of finding the proper balance. Game management isn't something that will ever go away in sports no matter what league it is.
It's not a matter of finding balance. There are rules. Call them.
 
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Whoshattenkirkshoes

Registered User
Aug 11, 2014
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Yes but at least they are consistent with the zone for the whole game. Pitchers are fine with that as long as they know where it is. Hockey is some bizaro world where a blatend hit from behind is fine, but a tap on the stick gets called. Its f***ing disgusting
Somedays the hit from behind gets called and the stick tap doesn't. Hockey is inconsistent.

What is a cross check?
What is a penalty?

NO one knows
 
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Oddbob

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Jan 21, 2016
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Why do people act like the reffing is so bad or any worse that it has ever been? Watched hockey for over 30 years and every single year the league has been around the refs will get pretty big things wrong, and this year is no worse or has more bad calls than any other year. People act like these refs are not human, but robots who call games with 15 slo-mo replays in their heads before the plays happen. This game is quick and only so much can be seen and called, and HUMAN BEINGS will make mistakes. Do all these constant bellyachers go to work each day and work perfectly at insane speed? Do they never have bad days? Things always go beautifully?

Players get scrutinized because they make many times more than they should to play a game, and linesmen and refs very likely don't get paid all that well. Not only that, they can never win, as even when they make the correct call, the offending teams fans will hate it.
 

Oddbob

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Jan 21, 2016
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It's not a matter of finding balance. There are rules. Call them.

If the refs called every thing that technically should be called, there would be 20-30 stoppages for penalties every single period. Lots of hooking and light slashing is technically a penalty and I for one, don't want to watch a game where each team has 10-15 PP/game and the game takes 9 hours because of all the stoppages and penalty call reviews.
 

gstommylee

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Jan 31, 2012
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It's not a matter of finding balance. There are rules. Call them.

And calling them the rules exactly as written word by word = 20 to 30+penalities a game. The rules also state its at the disgression of the ice officials. there lies the issue. no league ever follows its own rules exaclty.

All i want is a consistant balanced called game between when penalities should be called and the officials letting the players plays.

What i do not want is no constisentcy, too much of letting them and too much penalty calling and the game get dragged on for far too long.
 

gstommylee

Registered User
Jan 31, 2012
14,400
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Why do people act like the reffing is so bad or any worse that it has ever been? Watched hockey for over 30 years and every single year the league has been around the refs will get pretty big things wrong, and this year is no worse or has more bad calls than any other year. People act like these refs are not human, but robots who call games with 15 slo-mo replays in their heads before the plays happen. This game is quick and only so much can be seen and called, and HUMAN BEINGS will make mistakes. Do all these constant bellyachers go to work each day and work perfectly at insane speed? Do they never have bad days? Things always go beautifully?

Players get scrutinized because they make many times more than they should to play a game, and linesmen and refs very likely don't get paid all that well. Not only that, they can never win, as even when they make the correct call, the offending teams fans will hate it.

people need to look at the officails as a fan of the game not as a fan of a certain team or teams
 
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Oddbob

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Jan 21, 2016
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people need to look at the officails as a fan of the game not as a fan of a certain team or teams

Also, put themselves in the refs shoes, as it would be very hard to catch everything and be consistent. It is a hard thankless job, that always pisses someone off.
 
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gstommylee

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Jan 31, 2012
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Also, put themselves in the refs shoes, as it would be very hard to catch everything and be consistent. It is a hard thankless job, that always pisses someone off.


One thing i cant stand is the constant whining at the officials. i dealt with it in the other sports too. its ruins the enjoyment of the sport regardless if the fans are right or wrong. Its all part of the game. its not fun to see other fans ruin the enjoyment of the game over something we have no control over. The only ones that can do something about it are the 32 owners, the folks that are really in charge of the league, not the league execs. The execs do what the owners tell them to do.
 
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PettersonHughes

Registered User
Aug 26, 2020
1,534
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OP, being a ref is subjective in certain cases (e.g. Landeskog's toe-pick incident, vs. him being called diving) so for those there's really no way to have absolute fairness, since even if there's a Dept. of Penalty Reviews the headperson would still be subjective and it still might not go with what you or other fans individually may think the call should've been. There's really no metric and sometimes it does make sense that they want to balance things out (e.g. letting a hard hit go uncalled after the other team threw a borderline hit first, or letting a slash/ hook go for both teams). Reason being, as much as they should be making calls by the book, sometimes they still make calls due to the flow of the game, and there's really no 100% objective calls.
 

MikeyMike01

U.S.S. Wang
Jul 13, 2007
14,361
10,247
Hell
No. The game is not enjoyable when referees are playing a role in dictating who wins based on their own feelings instead of calling penalties as they should be called.

What's the point of a rulebook if it won't be enforced. NHL is the only pro sports league that has its referees act in this manner.

Totally false. The NFL has the same situation with offensive/defensive holding and pass interference.
 
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Machinehead

GoAwayKakko
Jan 21, 2011
141,167
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NYC
If the refs called every thing that technically should be called, there would be 20-30 stoppages for penalties every single period. Lots of hooking and light slashing is technically a penalty and I for one, don't want to watch a game where each team has 10-15 PP/game and the game takes 9 hours because of all the stoppages and penalty call reviews.
And calling them the rules exactly as written word by word = 20 to 30+penalities a game. The rules also state its at the disgression of the ice officials. there lies the issue. no league ever follows its own rules exaclty.

All i want is a consistant balanced called game between when penalities should be called and the officials letting the players plays.

What i do not want is no constisentcy, too much of letting them and too much penalty calling and the game get dragged on for far too long.
There's a big difference between that, calling a reasonable amount of penalties, and the Roman Colosseum bloodsport we get in the playoffs at times.

Just come up with something and be consistent with whatever that is. Stop reacting to the game that's being played. That's not what their job is.
 

Phil McKraken

Registered User
Jul 13, 2010
4,564
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The refs call the game that the NHL wants called, they aren't rogue agents. Tim Peel got off easy because it was his employer that directed him to make 'make-up' calls at his own discretion. If you want officiating reform, it begins with Colin Campbell.

I don't think he got off easy seeing as he was only doing what his bosses told him to do. 25 years of reffing, and still people will only remember him for one single game. The league ruined his entire professional legacy.
 

cowboy82nd

Registered User
Feb 19, 2012
5,043
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Newnan, Georgia
Game management is essential to the game. No one would like the end result of calling every single thing as written in the rule book. If you look back at any playoff game and retroactively assigned penalties, you'd be lucky to see 15 minutes of 5v5. The truth is, no manageable set of rules will, when called to the letter, lead to good hockey. It lacks the flexibility that a good game needs. The NHL and refs understand this, but fans don't seem to. This approach works better in far more structured games like baseball.

I've likened it to Godel's incompleteness theorems, except for hockey. Not a perfect analogy but it's pretty close. The game is just far too complex, with too many variations in play patterns, for a reasonable rule book to be able to be called mechanically like some seem to want.

Now that isn't to say that there aren't improvements to be made and that certain refs are anything other than complete trash. That missed call on Perry was pretty egregious. But the answer certainly isn't to call the rule book to the letter.

Then why have a rule book? If a rule is broken, a penalty should be called. If not, then why even have the rule?
 

DonM

The Industrial Revolution and its consequences
May 18, 2015
780
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Then why have a rule book? If a rule is broken, a penalty should be called. If not, then why even have the rule?
Do you want to be ticketed every time you jaywalk? Should failing to claim a 20 dollar bill you found on the ground on your taxes lead to you being charged with tax fraud? Our justice system recognizes the need for discretion in administering laws, the same is true in hockey. The primary goal of the NHL is to produce entertaining games, and the games should be called in furtherance of that goal. I personally don't think the game is improved by calling a penalty for a player crosschecking another in front of the net, or for slight interference on zone entries. You could find enough infractions to have the majority of the game played on special teams, and no one benefits from that. There's room for discussion on whether they've let too much go, or that they've missed things that should never be let go, but the answer certainly isn't to call everything.
 
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