Accountability and transparency of referrees

t0nedeff

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Jun 29, 2010
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What do officials make a year? Think that guys are going to want to put up with that level of daily scrutiny from the public for what they earn?

what quality of people are you going to get to do that job moving forward?
Or you know it makes them call the game the right way. What does money have to do with anything? You really don't think there are AHL refs and the like that would love to replace NHL refs who have hurt feelings because they have to give reasons for their quality of work?
 

StreetHawk

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Sep 30, 2017
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Or you know it makes them call the game the right way. What does money have to do with anything? You really don't think there are AHL refs and the like that would love to replace NHL refs who have hurt feelings because they have to give reasons for their quality of work?
Refs call the game per instructions from the nhl. They want a crackdown on hooking or interference there will be lots of calls in the days and weeks following the memo.

ahl refs coming up, yeah that’s the solution. Cause they are clearly better.

unless you see the same angle the refs sees what can we really see? They used ref cams for the World Cup and I recall seeing Ekblad get blown up behind the net vs Finland I believe on the replays. Then they showed the ref cam angle and despite knowing it was coming, it’s almost a blur at real speed.
 
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ChuckLefley

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Jan 5, 2016
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First the nhl needs to install helmet cameras on the officials. Should be small enough now to put them into the logo spot on the helmet.

Once you do that you get to see the official’s view of the play.

when evaluating performance watch the play starting around 10 seconds before it occurs and watch it once at regular speed. That’s how you judge if the right call was made or not and understand why it was or wasn’t made.

everything is different based on the angle that you get.

You do know that helmet cams only show what the helmet is pointed at, not where the eyes are looking.
It would be nice if a guy gets slashed in the face and is gushing blood everywhere that they would call a penalty.
If you watch it, his stick hits Perry’s and rides up, at speed, with multiple players moving and skating in front of the ref, I can see how he may have thought that Marchessault hit the puck into Perry.
And make it public. Make it a stats page on NHL.com for everyone to see. Make individual game accuracy % ratings public as well. Give refs a game log with their stats just like players while you're at it.
I take it you think that each team should publish their evaluations of the players after every game? And that your performance at work should be made public after every day? Of course that doesn’t take into account that the way fans are, if a ref gets a bad report after one game he will get ripped to shreds after every one of his games after that.
 

StreetHawk

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Sep 30, 2017
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You do know that helmet cams only show what the helmet is pointed at, not where the eyes are looking.

If you watch it, his stick hits Perry’s and rides up, at speed, with multiple players moving and skating in front of the ref, I can see how he may have thought that Marchessault hit the puck into Perry.

I take it you think that each team should publish their evaluations of the players after every game? And that your performance at work should be made public after every day? Of course that doesn’t take into account that the way fans are, if a ref gets a bad report after one game he will get ripped to shreds after every one of his games after that.
Refs are not basketball players doing no look passes. Doubt that they are not looking at there the helmet is pointed. I expect that their focus is what is in the center of the camera. Like all of us hard to catch something that quick out of the corner of your eye to make the correct call.

that’s why any evaluation should be made at real speed. Because that’s all the official gets to make a call and the evaluation is being done knowing what is coming.
 

ChuckLefley

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Refs are not basketball players doing no look passes. Doubt that they are not looking at there the helmet is pointed. I expect that their focus is what is in the center of the camera. Like all of us hard to catch something that quick out of the corner of your eye to make the correct call.

that’s why any evaluation should be made at real speed. Because that’s all the official gets to make a call and the evaluation is being done knowing what is coming.
A good referee is scanning the play, not just looking straight ahead at all times.
 
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t0nedeff

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Jun 29, 2010
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Refs call the game per instructions from the nhl. They want a crackdown on hooking or interference there will be lots of calls in the days and weeks following the memo.

ahl refs coming up, yeah that’s the solution. Cause they are clearly better.

unless you see the same angle the refs sees what can we really see? They used ref cams for the World Cup and I recall seeing Ekblad get blown up behind the net vs Finland I believe on the replays. Then they showed the ref cam angle and despite knowing it was coming, it’s almost a blur at real speed.
Tim Peel clearly rejects all of this. I'm not saying AHL refs are better but you clearly missed the point of my post anyways since you came back with the holstered they call it the way the NHL response.
 

Bluto

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Sports leagues have about as much interest in accountability and transparency as the federal government. It will always be empty words.
 

egelband

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Sep 6, 2008
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I’ve been thinking for a while now that it would make sense to have the refs in static positions above the ice. Like tennis referees. Each ref responsible for certain parts of the ice. Would start to encourage some uniformity, among other things. They’d ever go for it, but I think it makes sense.
 
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DonM

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May 18, 2015
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Game management is essential to the game. No one would like the end result of calling every single thing as written in the rule book. If you look back at any playoff game and retroactively assigned penalties, you'd be lucky to see 15 minutes of 5v5. The truth is, no manageable set of rules will, when called to the letter, lead to good hockey. It lacks the flexibility that a good game needs. The NHL and refs understand this, but fans don't seem to. This approach works better in far more structured games like baseball.

I've likened it to Godel's incompleteness theorems, except for hockey. Not a perfect analogy but it's pretty close. The game is just far too complex, with too many variations in play patterns, for a reasonable rule book to be able to be called mechanically like some seem to want.

Now that isn't to say that there aren't improvements to be made and that certain refs are anything other than complete trash. That missed call on Perry was pretty egregious. But the answer certainly isn't to call the rule book to the letter.
 

Lebowski

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Dec 5, 2010
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This is where I jump off board. I don't think about the refs much, and I don't like to think about them. The last thing I want to see each game is stats presented to me on how fair each ref is. I understand that some are better than others but the game is simply more enjoyable to watch the less I think about them. The NHL has all the data you're talking about, and I'd rather they didn't give it to us.

I'm assuming they do, and that ties in with what I was saying in the OP.

Transparency wouldn't be required if the accountability of refs couldn't be put into question. As it stands, transparency is needed because accountability doesn't appear to be a concern for the NHL.

They had to take action against Tim Peel only because, well, everyone heard what he said. Do you think this is an isolated event? If not, then where's the accountability? Whether the NHL compile data and evaluate its ref behind closed door is irrelevant to me as long as there's no discernible change in the way games get called.

With all that said, I understand that part of the bigger issue if that the refs probably only implement directions coming from up top on how to manage the games. Therefore, the NHL has little to gain from making their evaluation public unless the referees' impact on the games start hurting their bottom line.

Which probably won't ever happen, if I'm being honest. People will complain and forget all about it by the time the next game comes around.
 

soothsayer

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Oct 27, 2009
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Anyone who says that game management is essential to the game has never played hockey.
 

supsens

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Oct 6, 2013
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Let me preface this thread by saying I absolutely despise the poor reffing excuse that routinely gets thrown around. They are human and we can't expect a 100% accuracy out of them every night. Your team will inevitably benefit or be hindered by it at some point, and I think it typically balances out over the long term.

That being said, I feel like the NHL got off very easy after the whole Tim Peel incident. Game management isn't something new and I don't think anyone was exactly surprised when Peel openly admitted to it. But for it to be acknowledged out loud, it should have sparked a need for the NHL to makes things more transparent and reestablish confidence in its referees for the sake of preserving the appearance of fairness and impartiality. Instead, to quench the significant pressure coming from the media and fans alike, Tim Peel was made the sacrificial lamb. Beyond that, business as usual.

After last night's game between Vegas and Montreal, I've been wondering if the NHL had any sort of quality control about its referees and if so, how they are evaluated and if corrective measures are ever, if at all, implemented.

If we agree on the idea that game management shouldn't be a thing and that the rulebook should simply be called as it is; it is only natural that penalty minutes would tend to be uneven between two teams on any given night. That's something most people would probably agree to in theory, but that would be an incredibly hard pill to swallow for most rabid fans when their team gets the short end of the stick. Similar to how the Apple music shuffle isn't completely random by design to make it feel more random to us, I think some form of game management is needed to make things appear more fair to the fans.

I think the bigger issue lies within the more obvious penalties that don't get called because it's in overtime, and the weaker, made-up calls that only serve the purpose of evening up the scale. These are the calls, or non-calls, that I think hurt the fans' trust in referees the most. These are the calls for which I feel the referees should be held accountable. To be fair, they probably already are. I'd expect the NHL to already have a system in place to evaluate the refs performance. But I think there has to be transparency in that regard to restore, to a certain degree, confidence in the league.

My suggestion is this: it would seem fairly simple to implement a review committee that would evaluate both the calls and non-calls made by refs and translate that into an accuracy% metric on a game-to-game basis. Over a large enough sample size, the fairer, better performing refs would naturally come out on top and these are the ones that should be favored for games played on the bigger stage, notably the playoffs. Implement a passing grade and those that fail to reach a certain accuracy % over a given sample size would simply have to be let go.

And make it public. Make it a stats page on NHL.com for everyone to see. Make individual game accuracy % ratings public as well. Give refs a game log with their stats just like players while you're at it.

Would that be a good or a bad thing? Is reffing even an issue that needs to be addressed in your mind or has it always been that way throughout all sports and we just have to deal with it?

For all you know Peel warned them 3 or 4 times and wanted them to stop. Acting like it's "fixed" might not be accurate and saying he admitted anything is not true.
 
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syz

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Jul 13, 2007
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Game management and forced parity are both Bettmanisms. He's coming up on 30 years; he has to be on his way out pretty soon, one would hope.
 

Summer Rose

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So you get rid of the worst refs.

Then you replace them with… AHL refs?

And when those guys are even worse, then what? More firings?

At this rate they'll call me out of retirement (I stopped officiating four years ago). I'd be happy to work an NHL game only to promptly get fired, only to get replaced by someone even worse.
 

mouser

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Jul 13, 2006
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I think the bigger issue lies within the more obvious penalties that don't get called because it's in overtime, and the weaker, made-up calls that only serve the purpose of evening up the scale. These are the calls, or non-calls, that I think hurt the fans' trust in referees the most. These are the calls for which I feel the referees should be held accountable. To be fair, they probably already are. I'd expect the NHL to already have a system in place to evaluate the refs performance. But I think there has to be transparency in that regard to restore, to a certain degree, confidence in the league.

Sorry for cherry picking a small part of your post, but I thought this section summed my response up best.

- The NHL isn’t experiencing a loss of confidence.

- There is a non public system in place evaluating the Referees performance.

- Making those Referee evaluations public is unlikely to improve whatever you want to define as “restore confidence in the league”.
 
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gstommylee

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Jan 31, 2012
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Game management and forced parity are both Bettmanisms. He's coming up on 30 years; he has to be on his way out pretty soon, one would hope.

Game amangement has been going on for longer than Bettman has been commissioner of the NHL.
 
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gstommylee

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Jan 31, 2012
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Sorry for cherry picking a small part of your post, but I thought this section summed my response up best.

- The NHL isn’t experiencing a loss of confidence.

- There is a non public system in place evaluating the Referees performance.

- Making those Referee evaluations public is unlikely to improve whatever you want to define as “restore confidence in the league”.

Trying to get some sort of accountability that punishes refs that happen to be public is something that isn't likely to happen with out serious work stoppage in order to the union to agree to it. That's the problem getting union to agree to anything is just out right difficult at times.

People were all complaining at the replacement refs in the NFL during that year's season during the NFL officials lockout. They even called some that actually followed the rule book as bad officials in some cases.
 

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