Ansar Khan: Abdelkader has a broken face

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Except that's not a thing.

We would have had 12-13 million if we did nothing. Had we not moved Datsyuk and had Stamkos would have wanted to come here, we would have done it, and figured out how to shed the cap after.

I can see why Holland didn't want to do that though. Yes... we could have signed and sorted out later... but we'd be dealing from a position of awful weakness. Instead of a pretty solid return on trading Datsyuk's dead cap... it would have been something like AA+ that was being rumored before the draft day trade happened. As opposed to being able to walk away from the table if the offer was terrible... we would have been forced into a move to get rid of that 7.5M at some point... when a team would have less inclination to make a move like that.

Doing it exactly as you say would have been possible... but it would have put the Wings in a position where it was an absolute must to clear Datsyuk's contract... and failing Arizona doing what they did at the draft, it was going to cost them a boatload. Even more so if they waited until it was dire straits for them to get cap compliant and Arizona was literally their only outlet for the deal.

So no, it wasn't a fact that they needed to move Datsyuk's money to chase Stamkos. But... you think they have no flexibility on the roster right now? They would have been forced into a truly awful move to become cap compliant. There would have been an enormous price to sign Stamkos and sort it out later even if it were technically possible to finagle it that way.

 

[Frk It]

I can see why Holland didn't want to do that though. Yes... we could have signed and sorted out later... but we'd be dealing from a position of awful weakness. Instead of a pretty solid return on trading Datsyuk's dead cap... it would have been something like AA+ that was being rumored before the draft day trade happened. As opposed to being able to walk away from the table if the offer was terrible... we would have been forced into a move to get rid of that 7.5M at some point... when a team would have less inclination to make a move like that.

Doing it exactly as you say would have been possible... but it would have put the Wings in a position where it was an absolute must to clear Datsyuk's contract... and failing Arizona doing what they did at the draft, it was going to cost them a boatload. Even more so if they waited until it was dire straits for them to get cap compliant and Arizona was literally their only outlet for the deal.

So no, it wasn't a fact that they needed to move Datsyuk's money to chase Stamkos. But... you think they have no flexibility on the roster right now? They would have been forced into a truly awful move to become cap compliant. There would have been an enormous price to sign Stamkos and sort it out later even if it were technically possible to finagle it that way.

Agree to an extent, just saying when push comes to shove, we could have and would have afforded Stamkos if it came down to it.

More than likely we would have lost one of our RFA's (Mrazek/Dekeyser), and then we would have had to dump about 4-5 million in an assuredly bad trade where we have to sweeten the pot, with not much leverage, in order to sign the other. Definitely not ideal, but at least you have Stamkos on your roster. Probably even saves us from one of our bad contracts we gave out. But that's with the benefit of hindsight.

 

[Winger98]

Agree to an extent, just saying when push comes to shove, we could have and would have afforded Stamkos if it came down to it.

More than likely we would have lost one of our RFA's (Mrazek/Dekeyser), and then we would have had to dump about 4-5 million in an assuredly bad trade where we have to sweeten the pot, with not much leverage, in order to sign the other. Definitely not ideal, but at least you have Stamkos on your roster. Probably even saves us from one of our bad contracts we gave out. But that's with the benefit of hindsight.

Yeah, there were problems with whatever path Holland took. I'm fine getting Cholo and Hronek in place of just Chychrun, so the trade itself is fine. What hurts is that Nielsen contract.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Agree to an extent, just saying when push comes to shove, we could have and would have afforded Stamkos if it came down to it.

More than likely we would have lost one of our RFA's (Mrazek/Dekeyser), and then we would have had to dump about 4-5 million in an assuredly bad trade where we have to sweeten the pot, with not much leverage, in order to sign the other. Definitely not ideal, but at least you have Stamkos on your roster. Probably even saves us from one of our bad contracts we gave out. But that's with the benefit of hindsight.

Yeah, and that's where knowing Holland's MO comes into play. If he can do something to prevent losing a player and still accomplishing whatever goal he had, he's going to do it. He doesn't want to lose multiple pieces in case the desired free agent doesn't sign here. Like he didn't want to deal Sheahan before AA signed because he would have hated to move Sheahan and then AA decides to leave too. Also, he would have wanted the board cleared potentially as a sweetner for Stamkos. Like "We can give you 10-10.5M a year... AND we will still have money to bring you in some help" as opposed to "We spent literally every dime we had on you and now we have to dig ourselves out of cap trouble to get you reinforcements. "

It all ended up moot because he clearly wanted to stay in Tampa... and I think visiting Toronto and having them roll out the cavalcade of aggressiveness woke him to that reality. He wanted to see what else was out there... and then Toronto went BOOM, HERE'S LITERALLY EVERYTHING YOU WANT AND EVEN MORE BEYOND THAT. I know it's just official interviews and such after that, but he certainly did not sound like a guy who was going after money and attention or trying to lead a team on after he signed in Tampa. I think he got to Toronto and they bent over backwards for him and it didn't feel right so he turned to Tampa. He still listened to Buffalo because they made it clear publicly that they were desperate AF and if he could get 12-13M instead of 8.5M, that's a whole different ballgame than 10M. Detroit was at 10 and likely to stay at 10... so they wouldn't be much of a lever to pull money out of Yzerman.

 

[Frk It]

Yeah, and that's where knowing Holland's MO comes into play. If he can do something to prevent losing a player and still accomplishing whatever goal he had, he's going to do it. He doesn't want to lose multiple pieces in case the desired free agent doesn't sign here. Like he didn't want to deal Sheahan before AA signed because he would have hated to move Sheahan and then AA decides to leave too. Also, he would have wanted the board cleared potentially as a sweetner for Stamkos. Like "We can give you 10-10.5M a year... AND we will still have money to bring you in some help" as opposed to "We spent literally every dime we had on you and now we have to dig ourselves out of cap trouble to get you reinforcements. "

What was the help going to be, though? Danny Dekeyser? Lol. There were no good UFA defenseman that summer. If we sign Stammer, we probably don't sign Nielsen. So that cap space goes to what? Probably some combo of Dekeyser/Mrazek/Helm. Doubt Stamkos would care about that at all.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

What was the help going to be, though? Danny Dekeyser? Lol. There were no good UFA defenseman that summer. If we sign Stammer, we probably don't sign Nielsen. So that cap space goes to what? Probably some combo of Dekeyser/Mrazek/Helm. Doubt Stamkos would care about that at all.

I never said it was a good hand that Holland would have had. They would also have had potentially the ability to trade and take money on, so get a better player than DeKeyser or whoever for just futures and not need the salaries to necessarily balance. It would be something that they could say "if we bring you in, we can supplement you at the deadline to make a run.", "we will have options in your first couple years while we build. "

Again, the reality was that Detroit didn't have a lot... but you could potentially sell a guy on "we are making you the center piece and over your deal, we can build the team in a direction that you would like. " But at that point, you could trade Tatar for Vatanen or any of the moves like that. You could try harder to swing the deal for Phaneuf that you were trying to make the year before.

 

[jkutswings]

A lot of wishful thinking going on here.

I didn't want Stamkos, even at $1. Not because he isn't a great player, but because he wasn't fixing a sinking ship. He'd make the roster much more entertaining in the short term, but the defense would still be garbage, and the team still wouldn't do anything in the playoffs, and the draft stock still wouldn't be good enough to pull off the overhaul necessary. (If anything, it would get a little worse, and the can just keeps getting kicked down the road.)

This GM doesn't make impact trades. Or sign prudent free agent deals. Or draft quality defensemen. So a Wings roster with Stamkos on it would just be another bubble team...but he was never coming here in the first place, so it's all moot anyway.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

A lot of wishful thinking going on here.

I didn't want Stamkos, even at $1. Not because he isn't a great player, but because he wasn't fixing a sinking ship. He'd make the roster much more entertaining in the short term, but the defense would still be garbage, and the team still wouldn't do anything in the playoffs, and the draft stock still wouldn't be good enough to pull off the overhaul necessary. (If anything, it would get a little worse, and the can just keeps getting kicked down the road.)

This GM doesn't make impact trades. Or sign prudent free agent deals. Or draft quality defensemen. So a Wings roster with Stamkos on it would just be another bubble team...but he was never coming here in the first place, so it's all moot anyway.

I think that's a bit disingenuous. You saw the difference that a broken down 37 year old Datsyuk made. It is not insane to think a healthy 29 year old Stamkos would make a much larger impact.

I really do think you are overselling the size of overhaul needed. The Wings have the last couple years kinda been a team of a bunch of passengers... if you get the guy at the top who drives the boat, all those passengers start making it bump pretty damn good.

I mean, it's all moot cause he wouldn't have signed here... but if you don't think adding a true, in his prime 1C to this roster wouldn't vastly improve it, I don't know what to tell you.

Land Stamkos, you're more free to move a guy like Larkin in a trade for Trouba. Not that you necessarily should, but it wouldn't have been verboten like it was on the Wings as constructed.

And again, signing prudent FA contracts becomes easier too. You all of a sudden don't need a 2C or a 3C and you can let Larkin or AA try to be like Helm on the third line because your top two Cs would be fantastic. Or you could go cheap and look at a Jay McClement or Daniel Winnik or someone like that.

The whole point of tanking is to land an elite player or two. A truly elite player in his prime would make this Wings team a contender and/or make it easier for them to make the moves to address their core weaknesses to become one. THAT is their downfall right now. They have talent on the roster, it just is guys playing a line above their station.

 

[Redder Winger]

Landing a Stamkos gives you a fighting shot at remaining a playoff team.
It keeps your profile higher as an NHL team that can attract players.

 

[jkutswings]

I think that's a bit disingenuous. You saw the difference that a broken down 37 year old Datsyuk made. It is not insane to think a healthy 29 year old Stamkos would make a much larger impact.

I really do think you are overselling the size of overhaul needed. The Wings have the last couple years kinda been a team of a bunch of passengers... if you get the guy at the top who drives the boat, all those passengers start making it bump pretty damn good.

I mean, it's all moot cause he wouldn't have signed here... but if you don't think adding a true, in his prime 1C to this roster wouldn't vastly improve it, I don't know what to tell you.

Land Stamkos, you're more free to move a guy like Larkin in a trade for Trouba. Not that you necessarily should, but it wouldn't have been verboten like it was on the Wings as constructed.

And again, signing prudent FA contracts becomes easier too. You all of a sudden don't need a 2C or a 3C and you can let Larkin or AA try to be like Helm on the third line because your top two Cs would be fantastic. Or you could go cheap and look at a Jay McClement or Daniel Winnik or someone like that.

The whole point of tanking is to land an elite player or two. A truly elite player in his prime would make this Wings team a contender and/or make it easier for them to make the moves to address their core weaknesses to become one. THAT is their downfall right now. They have talent on the roster, it just is guys playing a line above their station.

Agree to disagree, I guess. Guys like Larkin and Mantha would be fine as Robins to Stamkos' Batman, but with this defense and the inconsistency of the goaltending, the Wings weren't about to win anywhere near 16 games playing 5-4 hockey. And I think this front office simply doesn't have it in themselves to successfully (re)construct a roster with sufficient talent in enough areas to ever win it all again.

 

[Claypool]

And I think this front office simply doesn't have it in themselves to successfully (re)construct a roster with sufficient talent in enough areas to ever win it all again.

Cool.