AAA 2013 Line-up Assassination Thread

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
Brooklyn
I don't know where Zajac fits in based on his relatively short career, but right now, he's an elite defensive center in the NHL and has been for a few years now. He's earned his Selke votes, and it was honestly a joke that Parise finished ahead of him in Selke voting a few years back because Parise had more points. Zajac's offense depends entirely on his wings though - he needs skilled wingers who excel on the cycle like Parise or old man Jagr to put up points.

IMO, Zajac was the Devils' second most important forward after Kovalchuk in their 2012 Cup run, largely due to his ability to neutralize the opposing center.

If the Devils make the playoffs for the next couple of years (definitely not a guarantee), I expect Zajac to get enough Selke votes to be a regular bottom 6er in the MLD.
 

Hedberg

MLD Glue Guy
Jan 9, 2005
16,399
12
BC, Canada
Mini-Reviews:

Greendale Human Beings

Head Coach: Ivan Hlinka

Neal - Nylander(A) - Routh
Sheppard - J.Carson - Carter(A)
Arvedson- Migay - Goldsworthy
Irvine -Findlay - Mallen

Samsonov-Semonov-Beaudro


Fogolin Sr (C)- D.Mironov
Malakhov - B.Mironov
Snepsts - Subban
Staios

Quick
Simmons


PP:
1 Neal - Nylander - Routh
Subban - B.Mironov

2 Sheppard - Carson - Carter
D.Mironov-Malakov

PK:
1 Migay-Goldsworthy
Fogolin-D.Mironov

2 Findlay-Arvedson
Snepsts-B.Mironov

- I think Nylander is better suited to a 2nd line role in this draft but he's augmented nicely by two quality power forwards. I like James Neal a lot, giving both a physical presence and a great shot. Routh is a absolute star at this level, one of the best top-line wingers available
- Jimmy Carson had a bizarre career and I'm really not sure how to compare him to someone with a long run of good play, like Nylander, or a short peak like Carson. Sheppard is a good playmaking winger and a strong defensive presence. Unfortunately Anson Carter is like "A" level player.
- Your third line is fantastic - I badly wanted Arvedson and Leroy Goldsworthy would be a quality MLD 4th line/spare. This is absolutely one of the best checking lines in the draft and combined with defensive responsibility on the other lines, this team will be a pain to play against
- I like Subban a lot and think he could even play on the 2nd pairing - I think that comment applies, both good and bad, to your entire defence other than Snepsts - you have about five second pairing d-men.
- Quick's pretty hard to judge - his regular save percentage isn't great and he's been a major benefactor of the laissez-faire clutch and grab playoffs the last few years. But he's a decent AAA goalie and his team here should be pretty stingy. I would have preferred a more noted trap coach than Ivan Hlinka for your roster, but he's ok.


Pittsburgh Yellow Jackets

Coach: Terry Crisp
Assistant Coach: Mike Buckna

Alex Kaleta - Jozef Stumpel - Glen Murray
Morris Lukowich - Guy Chouinard - Ran McDonald
Jochen Hecht - Ron Schock (C) - Lucien DeBlois
Dan Maloney - Travis Zajac - Ryan Callahan (A)
Jim Conacher, Ric Seiling

Stew Evans (A) - Gord Murphy
Eric Brewer - Tom Bladon
Bob Trapp - Randy Manery
Bryan Watson

Gerry McNeil
Cesare Maniago

PP1
Kaleta-Stumpel-Murray
Chouinard-Bladon

PP2
Lukowich-Schock-McDonald
Murphy-Manery

PK1
Schock-Hecht
Evans-Brewer

PK2
Zajac-Callahan
Trapp-Murphy

- I love this team - so many guys on my radar ended up here (which is either a good or bad thing depending on what you think of my team)
- Stumpel is another borderline top line centre, but you made a great move pairing him with longtime team-mate Glen Murray. Were they linemates? Kaleta is a nice compliment
- Ran McDonald is a long-time favorite of mine with a great backstory and what you've found him should elevate him to the MLD. I was surprised how far Lukowich seemed to fall and Chouinard is totally adequate
- The bottom six is stacked with quality role players. Nothing but good things there
- It's kind of odd that you don't have a player wearing a letter in the top six, but there's no argument with who you selected
- I can't believe your defence is so good it has Brewer on the 2nd pairing and he may be better than Murphy and Evans, but I think the shut down pairing on the top unit makes sense. However, does it make sense to have a top defence pairing with little offensive ability?
- Bladon is one of the top powerplay guys in this draft, good choice. Why are Brewer and Trapp not on the PP? (maybe over Murphy and Manery?)
- McNeil and Crisp are both top options for their respective positions
- This is a totally glowing review, but I'm not really seeing a weakness on your team. Well done!
 
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BubbaBoot

Registered User
Oct 19, 2003
11,306
2
The Fenway
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Mini-Reviews:

- I love this team - so many guys on my radar ended up here (which is either a good or bad thing depending on what you think of my team)
- Stumpel is another borderline top line centre, but you made a great move pairing him with longtime team-mate Glen Murray. Were they linemates? Kaleta is a nice compliment
- Ran McDonald is a long-time favorite of mine with a great backstory and what you've found him should elevate him to the MLD. I was surprised how far Lukowich seemed to fall and Chouinard is totally adequate
- The bottom six is stacked with quality role players. Nothing but good things there
- It's kind of odd that you don't have a player wearing a letter in the top six, but there's no argument with who you selected
- I can't believe your defence is so good it has Brewer on the 2nd pairing and he may be better than Murphy and Evans, but I think the shut down pairing on the top unit makes sense. However, does it make sense to have a top defence pairing with little offensive ability?
- Bladon is one of the top powerplay guys in this draft, good choice. Why are Brewer and Trapp not on the PP? (maybe over Murphy and Manery?)
- McNeil and Crisp are both top options for their respective positions
- This is a totally glowing review, but I'm not really seeing a weakness on your team. Well done!
I was actually looking at Lukowich in the MLD but couldn't fit him in my needs at the time. Unfortunately my notes got misplaced and I forgot about him in this draft, until too late.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,131
Regina, SK
Re: Hib Milks - isn't the argument for him that he led his (generally terrible) teams in scoring, while most of the rest of the guys drafted at this level were complimentary players?
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I guess that’s a point in his favour. Determining how to credit him for that is difficult though. I mean, one of those times he led the team with 12 points in 44 games! It’s certainly different from being the leading scorer of a successful, but defense-first team (Middleton, Elias, Satan)

Re: Lorne Campbell - it's quite possible that Iain's PA system is underrating the IHL - remember that Hod Stuart also looks surprisingly low, and that could very well be part of the reason why

I believe this was brought up to him before, and one thing that was hard for the system to get around was how bad a lot of Stuart’s *teams were defensively – right?

Thanks for the review as always 70s, I'll try to respond to some of it.

The main reason I took Chouinard so high was his ability quarterbacking a powerplay. His career was short but he's one of the best PP players in the draft.
|GP|$PPP|$PPP/S|$PP%|TmPP+
Cliff Ronning|1137|328|23|57%|0.91
Andrew Brunette|1110|292|22|60%|0.91
Alexei Zhamnov|807|273|27|71%|0.94
Andrew Cassels|1015|269|21|55%|0.93
Ivan Boldirev|1052|251|19|48%|0.86
Robert Lang|989|236|19|50%|1.02
Guy Chouinard|578|230|32|79%|1.08
Garry Galley|1149|228|16|47%|0.94
Dan Quinn|805|218|21|53%|0.95
Joe Juneau|828|211|20|52%|1.08
Geoff Sanderson|1104|207|15|43%|0.89
Petr Nedved|982|205|17|39%|1.05
Jozef Stumpel|957|204|17|49%|0.99
Rick Kehoe|906|201|18|49%|0.95
I stopped at players with over 200 adjusted PP points.
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Yeah, I should have mentioned that in my review. What I meant was that as a 2nd liner he was average (literally speaking, when the second line is playing) but there’s more than just that to him, since he does have a lot of PP value.
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BTW – Nedved looks outstanding here, when you look at his usage compared to points.

I had Hogue on my team last year and would have been happy to pick him again this year if I didn't go for Hecht. I liked him more last year than you did and possibly still do. I did find more quotes about DeBlois checking other team's best lines than I could last year with Hogue, where I posted one quote about him shadowing Lemieux. I found quotes on DeBlois's line checking Gretzky, 89 Calgary's scorers, and two about Lemieux. Phil Esposito was his coach during the second quote about Lemieux and said they've come to expect great checking work of Jan Erixon and DeBlois so it seems like he settled into the role of a reliable checker against other team's top lines when his offense dried up. I wanted someone who could bring a physical game beside Hecht and Schock who weren't hitters and DeBlois was the best I could find out there. It was actually between him and Seiling (who seemed less physical) so I was a little surprised I could get Seiling with my last pick.

OK, that answers my question. I have Hogue as a bit of a tweener as he wouldn’t be the first guy I think of offensively or defensively during any point in the AAA (at some point he would be, obviously) but DeBlois IS precisely who we should be thinking of defensively at some point in the AAA.

This is definitely attempting to split hairs so bear with me.

Ultimately I tend to look at all-star votes and quotes first and foremost for these 06 guys. I think Evans's all-star votes are significant here, particularly in 1938. Just like I'm a fan of Hamilton's 10th place finish in 1945 which is marred by the date rather than amount of votes to me.

Reading your bio of Hamilton, I see a quote that said he was good enough to be a partner of Hap Day, a more general "for 10 years a stalwart operator on the Leafs' hockey defense," and bolstering Chicago after his trade.

From Evans's bio, he was good enough to play with Cy Wentworth and they paired "for one of the best units in hockey," and a quote calling him a first rate rearguard (in the company of Shore, Seibert, Conacher, Wentworth, and Shields).

There's not a ton for either that aren't descriptions of style or quotes from single games, but I think the praise for Evans seems higher.

Also I sorta question what the big chart showing that Hamilton's teams were some of the best of MLD/AAA defenders says, just because of the reserve clause. It's true it's more impressive to stick on a good team than bad one, but we know these guys probably didn't drive their team's success like you questioned with PP guys. So can we say that a guy who stuck on a bad team, and never got traded, was necessarily worse than someone who lasted on a good team? If it weren't for the reserve clause the answer would be an obvious yes, but it sort of blurs it for me.
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I’m just delighted to have someone to split hairs with!
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Evans’ votes in 1938 and Hamilton’s in 1945 are worth mentioning. However, they shouldn’t serve as any sort of a “trump card†in a debate; it’s a solid (but far from definitive) indication that Evans’ best season was likely better than Hamilton’s. It doesn’t mean Hamilton couldn’t have been better in every other season (not saying he necessarily was, just pointing out the shallowness of info those votes really provide).
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You may be right that the praise for Evans seems higher. It might just be that you did a better job on the research side of things!
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I get the part about the reserve clause – however, doesn’t it make the chart more valuable, as opposed to less? The reason I’d say that is if you’re a player on a strong and deep organization (that will have better results) and you still lasted with the big club for a long time, that’s a good thing. The reserve clause could be an “excuse†if you didn’t make it, but if you did make it and last, then you did it “despite†the reserve clause. No? And on the other hand, if you’re on a historically less deep team (that will typically not have results as strong) then it just makes it even less *impressive that you lasted on their roster for years.
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I think this chart is really similar to looking at a list of modern defensemen and what their career average TOI was and how strong their teams were.

I'm only sure of Trapp's 1925 reserve all-star spot, I found a newspaper article for it. I couldn't find ones for the other three. The retroactive thread credits Trapp with 4 all-star spots, including the 1925 labeled as a reserve spot. Legends of Hockey lists him as a 3-time all-star, but leaves out the 1925 reserve nod. So with Iain's information, we can be sure of 1925 and 1926. I don't have any reason to doubt BM67 for the other two, but in 1923 he's one of three 1st team defenseman with Herb Gardiner and Joe Simpson. It's possible that should be a second reserve spot, but that's just speculating. Either way, I'm pretty sure he was a four-time all-star and one certainly was as a spare (but in a year no one seemed to know he was an all-star).
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Ok, makes sense. I agree we know for sure about 25 and 26. It looks like 23 may be dubious as well.
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I think that I might have given this information to BM67 way back when I realized I could pull these awards off legendsofhockey and the Total Hockey books. But of course I’d have had no way of knowing if any of them were reserve nods.
 

Budbuster

Registered User
Oct 31, 2011
195
1
Regina, Sask
Ok boys it 7 AM here and I Drank my face off as Our Saskatchewan Roughriders hoisted The Grey cup in dominant fashion. So bare with me and Sorry for any errors.

He's a first unit guy over Letang with the Penguins right now, but yeah it's definitely not his strong suit especially in an all-time sense. All he does is pass because his shot is so bad, but he's their best option. Even swapping him with Spacek would help I think.

Ya I think that could work. I was looking into some forwards back there but I just don't see one on my team.

Martin Does have 91 PP points in his career, and has spent time on there every year he has been in the league.

"Legends of hockey"An offensive defenseman, Martin played three seasons at the University of Minnesota capturing numerous honours including; WCHA All-Rookie Team (2001), WCHA Second All-Star Team (2002, 2003), NCAA West Second Team All-American (2003 and NCAA All-Tournament Team (2003). The former Minnesota High School Player of the Year (1999) and US World Junior Team member in 2001, Martin made his NHL debut with New Jersey in 2003-04, tallying 24 points (6-18-24) in 70 games.

Aside from his appearance at the 2001 World Juniors, Martin has gone on to represent his homeland at the 2004 World Cup of Hockey, the 2005 & 2008 World Championships, and the 2006 Winter Olympics.

Do you really not have anyone better than Burridge to take that LW spot?

You're a lot higher on Williams than I am. In an all-time context I don't think he brings significant defense. However, your line is at least average, as all its members are. More toughness would be nice, but I know that's not easy to do.

Its either him or Williams. Im not sure which is better. Williams is a solid player. I never got to see Burridge pay other than a bit in his last days, But I have seen Williams and he seems to be a great comlimentary player. Making those around him better at what they do. Can definetly score and was huge for both teams he played top line minutes for when he won both his cups.

WIlliams also has a handful of SHG. So he can step in, in spot Duty on the PK. He was put on the second line because he has that two way wrinkle in his game, I know Quinn has next to none.

he has 126 PP points in his career and 26 GW goals.
I know thats not Jagr esc but its nice

Burridge had a few more PP points but im willing to chalk that up to the high scoring 80s ;)
What do think 70s?

On the international stage, Williams represented Canada at the 2002 World Championships and helped his nation capture gold at the 2004 and 2007 Championships

In 2011-12, Williams was a key part of the Los Angeles Kings club that stormed through the Western Conference playoffs and defeated the New Jersey Devils to capture the first Stanley Cup in franchise history. Along with veteran leadership, Williams chipped in with 15 points in 20 playoff games.

Bonk is the best 4th line center in this thing. He's not always on, but when he's on, he is big, physical, outstanding defensively and a legitimate offensive threat. In fact, I'd listen to a case that he is the best bottom-6 center in the draft over Dahlstrom, Schock and Plekanec.

Thanks!! I took Bonk super early to make sure I got him. A guy Like that can make a big difference in this draft. I noticed that last year. MY 4 th line was a faction as good as this one a year ago. :handclap:

Plekanec is an elite 3rd line center in the AAA. I have him 3rd after my Dahlstrom and Schock. But I'd be willing to listen to a case that puts him on top of one or both of them.

I would have to say that Once Plekanec's career is over, we wont need this debate. But him finishing top 5 in SHG twice. And GWG once. As well as his Playoff scoring record, could put him ahead of Schock. Although Shcok had the magically year as a 31 year old and finished 7th in the league in assists. Plekanec also has the better Olympic and international Resume. And will Further that this year in Sochi I imagine.

He also Is known for getting Stars Like Crosby off there game, As well as score against them. This is huge for me. A little aggitation to go with his defense.

Other Than a Calder and once finishing top 10 in assists I don't see much that could put Dahlstrom ahead of Plekanec. I also cant see PK numbers to Compare If you have some please share.
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,131
Regina, SK
By the way, I keep saying that all the first line centers blend in together. I am tempted to call Zhluktov the best (but it seems off because my own late pick and 2nd line RW Golikov has 7 combined USSR and international top-8 finishes compared to Zhluktov’s two) and give Zhamnov an edge over “the pack” due to longevity/consistency, and I’ve said Nylander is the worst (which appears to be uncontested) and Zabrodsky at least “belongs”.
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Does anyone want to take a shot at splitting hairs and sorting out the modern NHL AAA scoring line centers Zhamnov, Nedved, Lang, Stumpel and Cullen? You could include 2nd liners Bullard, Carson, Cassels, Walton, Chouinard, Quinn, and Ronning as well. I know I had them all pretty tight coming in and just wanted to make sure to get one of my few favourites first and then move heaven and earth to get Art Jackson as my #2. (it’s not just how much I like him as a player; the desire to do one fewer new bio was a motivating factor as well)
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,131
Regina, SK
Ok boys it 7 AM here and I Drank my face off as Our Saskatchewan Roughriders hoisted The Grey cup in dominant fashion. So bare with me and Sorry for any errors.



Ya I think that could work. I was looking into some forwards back there but I just don't see one on my team.

Martin Does have 91 PP points in his career, and has spent time on there every year he has been in the league.

"Legends of hockey"An offensive defenseman, Martin played three seasons at the University of Minnesota capturing numerous honours including; WCHA All-Rookie Team (2001), WCHA Second All-Star Team (2002, 2003), NCAA West Second Team All-American (2003 and NCAA All-Tournament Team (2003). The former Minnesota High School Player of the Year (1999) and US World Junior Team member in 2001, Martin made his NHL debut with New Jersey in 2003-04, tallying 24 points (6-18-24) in 70 games.

Aside from his appearance at the 2001 World Juniors, Martin has gone on to represent his homeland at the 2004 World Cup of Hockey, the 2005 & 2008 World Championships, and the 2006 Winter Olympics.
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Yeah, it’s not that he’s horrible, it’s just not his strength. I guess your best bet is to probably move Spacek up there. He will likely be better on the PP but won’t be any worse, and will give Martin a bit more of a break for his critical ES and PK shifts.

Its either him or Williams. Im not sure which is better. Williams is a solid player. I never got to see Burridge pay other than a bit in his last days, But I have seen Williams and he seems to be a great comlimentary player. Making those around him better at what they do. Can definetly score and was huge for both teams he played top line minutes for when he won both his cups.

WIlliams also has a handful of SHG. So he can step in, in spot Duty on the PK. He was put on the second line because he has that two way wrinkle in his game, I know Quinn has next to none.

he has 126 PP points in his career and 26 GW goals.
I know thats not Jagr esc but its nice

Burridge had a few more PP points but im willing to chalk that up to the high scoring 80s ;)
What do think 70s?

On the international stage, Williams represented Canada at the 2002 World Championships and helped his nation capture gold at the 2004 and 2007 Championships

In 2011-12, Williams was a key part of the Los Angeles Kings club that stormed through the Western Conference playoffs and defeated the New Jersey Devils to capture the first Stanley Cup in franchise history. Along with veteran leadership, Williams chipped in with 15 points in 20 playoff games.
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Burridge is the better penalty killer at 22%, he’s more in the “competent†AAA range, especially considering his teams were 15% better than average at it. Williams is down at 16% so ideally you don’t have to use him for that. *
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Williams has 15 adjusted SHP per season as opposed to 13 for Burridge.
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Sounds like you probably want Williams on the PP and Burridge on the PK.

I would have to say that Once Plekanec's career is over, we wont need this debate. But him finishing top 5 in SHG twice. And GWG once. As well as his Playoff scoring record, could put him ahead of Schock. Although Shcok had the magically year as a 31 year old and finished 7th in the league in assists. Plekanec also has the better Olympic and international Resume. And will Further that this year in Sochi I imagine.

He also Is known for getting Stars Like Crosby off there game, As well as score against them. This is huge for me. A little aggitation to go with his defense.
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Now that I have more stats at hand…
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It appears that Schock and Plekanec are about equally effective at even strength. Plekanec has averaged 42 adjusted ESP per season, Schock 39, but that’s over a career 70% longer. Plekanec would likely be below 42 by the time he has played 900 games, assuming he gets there. (no projections in these things!) As defensive players they’re tough to compare. Schock didn’t get notable selke votes but the award only existed for his last full season, and then it was pretty much the entire league fighting for a 3rd place vote. Would he have exceeded Plekanec’s lonely 13th place finish? Probably. But then, it seems Plek’s a little undervalued by that metric anyway.
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PK stats favour Plekanec* so far in his career; he didn’t kill quite as many penalties as Schock (36 to 32%) but his teams were better at it (+18%, -5%).

It looks like Schock = Plekanec, except he did it for so much longer.

Other Than a Calder and once finishing top 10 in assists I don't see much that could put Dahlstrom ahead of Plekanec. I also cant see PK numbers to Compare If you have some please share.
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See, it’s your knowledge of the older players that’s holding you back from building a truly dominant team. You’re great with the modern guys though.
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I honestly don’t care about the Calder. I typically don’t even include it in my player bios.
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There are no PK numbers for Dahlstrom; these only exist for post-expansion seasons. However, it is not common for a player in that era to actually be noted as a penalty killer. I feel quite fortunate to have him as a 2nd unit guy (thanks to owning Henning) but he could be a solid 1st unit player too.
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Dahlstrom has a really nice range of percentage scores (percentage of #2 scorer in the league): 70, 57, 50, 45, 45, 38 (total 305). And that includes 1944 adjusted heavily downwards to account for WW2. Plekanec is currently sitting at 65, 64, 58, 57, 54, 41 (total 339). If you can get a pre-expansion guy that close to the modern guy in percentage scores you take him.
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At the time I took Dahlstrom he was very close to having the best offensive prime of all available pre-expansion centers, while also being a very good defensive player. Plekanec, if he was available now, would have a long way to go before he was close to being the post potent player left. Comparing them defensively is a guessing game (though I think they’re in a similar range) but that kind of underscores the offensive tiers they’re in for their eras.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,131
Regina, SK
Vanislander - I plan to complete my reviews today. Does your lack of a lineup in this thread constitute a lack of interest in receiving a review? Just making sure.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,130
6,428
Does anyone want to take a shot at splitting hairs and sorting out the modern NHL AAA scoring line centers Zhamnov, Nedved, Lang, Stumpel and Cullen? You could include 2nd liners Bullard, Carson, Cassels, Walton, Chouinard, Quinn, and Ronning as well.
I have vivd memories of most of them.

Zhamnov had uneven compete level ("lazy" and "apathetic" at times);
Nedved was criticized everywhere he played for half-effort and disappearing so often in games that count;
Lang was praised often and overlooked often, with a respected positional game in Pittsburgh, responsible, using his size well;
Stumpel was criticized for lack of quickness, lack of shots taken and his determination was up and down, some seasons more of a special teams performer;
Cullen I don't recall either having large expectations, up and down play or mch else in terms of criticism, other than not being a true first liner, more of journeyman without any one remarkable skill;
Bullard had attitude problems but he could shoot;
Carson was not liked and really didn't put it all together;
Cassels was renowned for his shifty play across the blueline with the puck and great hustle, though at times knocked off the puck;
Walton was before my time and I barely recall Chouinard;
Quinn had off-ice troubles (including legal charges) and character issues;
Ronning was a respected competitor and creative passer who got pushed off the puck due to his size and wasn't very effective in traffic.

Lang, Cassels and Ronning were pretty respected with specific strengths you can count on and work ethic (the only three I'd think of drafting as a starter, though Bullard maybe too).
Zhamnov, Nedved, Carson, Quinn were considered disappointments by many (bench!).
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,130
6,428

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,131
Regina, SK
I have vivd memories of most of them.

Zhamnov had uneven compete level ("lazy" and "apathetic" at times);
Nedved was criticized everywhere he played for half-effort and disappearing so often in games that count;
Lang was praised often and overlooked often, with a respected positional game in Pittsburgh, responsible, using his size well;
Stumpel was criticized for lack of quickness, lack of shots taken and his determination was up and down, some seasons more of a special teams performer;
Cullen I don't recall either having large expectations, up and down play or mch else in terms of criticism, other than not being a true first liner, more of journeyman without any one remarkable skill;
Bullard had attitude problems but he could shoot;
Carson was not liked and really didn't put it all together;
Cassels was renowned for his shifty play across the blueline with the puck and great hustle, though at times knocked off the puck;
Walton was before my time and I barely recall Chouinard;
Quinn had off-ice troubles (including legal charges) and character issues;
Ronning was a respected competitor and creative passer who got pushed off the puck due to his size and wasn't very effective in traffic.

Lang, Cassels and Ronning were pretty respected with specific strengths you can count on and work ethic (the only three I'd think of drafting as a starter, though Bullard maybe too).
Zhamnov, Nedved, Carson, Quinn were considered disappointments by many (bench!).

Bench! LOL! Sorry, that just sounds so incredibly out of touch.
 

Hobnobs

Pinko
Nov 29, 2011
8,860
2,233
I have vivd memories of most of them.

Zhamnov had uneven compete level ("lazy" and "apathetic" at times);
Nedved was criticized everywhere he played for half-effort and disappearing so often in games that count;
Lang was praised often and overlooked often, with a respected positional game in Pittsburgh, responsible, using his size well;
Stumpel was criticized for lack of quickness, lack of shots taken and his determination was up and down, some seasons more of a special teams performer;
Cullen I don't recall either having large expectations, up and down play or mch else in terms of criticism, other than not being a true first liner, more of journeyman without any one remarkable skill;
Bullard had attitude problems but he could shoot;
Carson was not liked and really didn't put it all together;
Cassels was renowned for his shifty play across the blueline with the puck and great hustle, though at times knocked off the puck;
Walton was before my time and I barely recall Chouinard;
Quinn had off-ice troubles (including legal charges) and character issues;
Ronning was a respected competitor and creative passer who got pushed off the puck due to his size and wasn't very effective in traffic.

Lang, Cassels and Ronning were pretty respected with specific strengths you can count on and work ethic (the only three I'd think of drafting as a starter, though Bullard maybe too).
Zhamnov, Nedved, Carson, Quinn were considered disappointments by many (bench!).

Cassels was also known for making passes through defending players. Remarkable passing ability while he was in Hartford/Carolina. Will never understand why they traded Sanderson, Burke and Ciccone for Gelinas and Maclean and broke up those two. Though Canucks didnt get much out of it with Keenans legendary patience, traded Sanderson and Burke the same season for May and Garth Snow... WOW!
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,131
Regina, SK
London Lions​

Bryan Murray

Captain: Dale McCourt
Assistants: Murray Henderson and David Legwand

Ivan Boldirev - Robert Lang - Ray Sheppard
Paul Ysebaert - Dale McCourt - Joe Murphy
Pelle Eklund - David Legwand - Eddie Kullman
Brad May - Chris Gratton - Ronnie Stern
Viktor Kozlov - Radek Dvorak

Murray Henderson - Tom Poti
Dana Murzyn - Philippe Boucher
Colin White - Jason Woolley
Dick Tärnström - Alex Motter

Mike Palmateer
Darren Puppa

PP1
Ivan Boldirev - Robert Lang - Ray Sheppard
Phillipe Boucher - Tom Poti

PP2
Chris Gratton - Dale McCourt - Joe Murphy
Paul Ysebaert - Jason Woolley

PK1
David Legwand - Pelle Eklund
Murray Henderson - Dana Murzyn

PK2
Chris Gratton - Eddie Kullman
Colin White - Phillipe Boucher
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Lang “fits in” with the other first line centers. Not much to say there, just like the other first line centers. Unless, like I said, someone wants to split hairs there. Boldirev was a guy I had some doubts about as a winger, but he DID play at least one season there, and likely 2.5-3, and one of his best seasons was in that range, so he’s passable here. I discounted him a bit for the not necessarily for the “out of position” factor but because the majority of his points were at center and you can’t expect him to consistently post as many points from the wing. He’s a more legitimate winger than a few guys others have tried passing as a winger. Anyway, even with a discount I can’t see him beind any top wingers here except Sorrell, Kessel, Golikov and Grant. Sheppard is a pretty good top line scorer for the AAA. I’d prefer to see Johnny Sheppard here though; that would make this a pretty sweet line. As it is, it lacks intangibles in a big way. But there is firepower there.
*
McCourt is a little on the pop gun side for a 2nd line center but he does bring a pretty good two-way game and he was a big special teams specialist (might have been by default with Detroit but he has a history of major usage in all situations but especially PK/PP). Murphy is pretty much par for the course for a 2nd line winger. An average offensively, one-dimensional player. Ysebaert is the attempted “glue guy” of the line, from the looks of it. Can anyone comment on his defensive game? I don’t know a heck of a lot about it. In his favour is that he led the NHL in +/- once (which led to five selke votes) and his play earned him the captaincy in Tampa Bay, which should speak to his work ethic to some degree.
*
Legwand has slowly but surely worked his way up to “solid AAA role player” status and I wonder how much higher he’ll end up. He looks like he’s going to Jason Arnott his way to a 4th line MLD role when it’s said and done, the same way Arnott got to the ATD. Eklund is a good player, but is he a credible winger? Kullman is ok, I don’t have strong feelings either way about him.
*
Not a fan of Gratton. It’s hard to explain why. We talked about him last AAA. I feel like he stuck around so long on potential. It seems like what he did on paper looks pretty good for this level but I don’t know if once his offense dried up, he actually “succeeded” as a checker, or if he was just a checker. His intensity could wane at times, but I guess if nothing else he’s a big strong guy who was willing to play physical. I don’t think you needed Stern and May. One or the other in the lineup I could see. But if you’ve got them out at the same time you might have an Orr/McLaren Corsi situation like Toronto had last season. May had 24+ points five times including two with 38+; he appears to be the more “hockey player” of the two. Dvorak would add a definite skill element down there.
*
I have Poti as your #1. He’s not an ideal #1 but he’ll do. He skyrocketed his all-time reputation and legacy with the way he blossomed defensively in his last 4 seasons. He is bound to be poorly appreciated by VI-types for years to come. Henderson’s a passable-to-below-average #2. He did last in the NHL in the O6 for an OK amount of time, but there are definitely some better guys from that era in this draft. Murzyn is a solid tough player and strong ES specialist. I’d say he’s a Snepsts-lite plus injuries. White and Boucher would make a nice complementary 3rd pairing. White brings everything Boucher doesn’t. Unfortunately They are your #4 and 5 instead of #5 and 6 which would be ideal. Your comment vis-à-vis Boucher and Brisebois caused me to look pretty deeply into the two and what I concluded was that Boucher = Brisebois but Brisebois just maintained his level of play for an extra 250 games (33% longer, not insignificant). It really doesn’t look good on Boucher’s record that he spent 59 combined games in the IHL in 2000 and 2001. I remember thinking his career was over.
*
Boucher’s most impressive seasons are as follows:
*
1.*** 2006: was 2nd on a stars team that had outstanding results. Well behind Zubov but well ahead of everyone else.
2.*** 2007: was 2nd on a stars team that was only slightly behind the previous year.
3.*** 2004: was 2nd on a very good Stars team behind Zubov and just ahead of Matvichuk/Numminen.
4.*** 2003: Played a solid 20:29 for an outstanding Stars team, 3rd behind the top-2 who were relied on very heavily – Hatcher and Zubov.
5.*** 1996: was 2nd on LA (behind Marty) with just 20:41 per game for 53 games when Rob Blake missed the season with injuries. This Kings team was so bad it led to the “other” Gretzky trade.
6.*** 1997: was 3rd on LA behind Blake and Norstrom for 60 games. This was a very bad team overall as well.
7.*** 2002: played a solid 21:36 for a good Kings team but was behind Norstrom, Schneider and Miller.
*
These are Brisebois’ best:
*
1.*** 2002: absolute runaway #1 (23:53, 4 minutes ahead of anyone else) on an upstart Hab team that had the eventual cup finalist on the ropes in game 4 before surrendering 17 of the next 20 goals to blow the series
2.*** 1996: runaway #1 (24.86) on an upstart Habs team without Roy from December on. Habs finished 6th and lost to the Rangers as expected.
3.*** 2003: #1 on the close-to-playoffs Habs (23:23). Ahead of Markov.
4.*** 1998: #2 (21.89) on a Hab team that defeated the division winning Pens and then got smoked by the Sabres.
5.*** 1995: was #1 for the season (technical #2 due to trades) on a disappointing Montreal team. Ahead of Odelein, behind Schneider and then Malakhov who each played a fraction of the year as Habs.
6.*** 2006: #2 (22:19) on a very good Avs team, solidly behind Blake and solidly ahead of all else
7.*** 2000: runaway #2 (23:14) for a team that narrowly missed the playoffs, behind Weinrich, ahead of Malakhov
8.*** 2001: #1 (24:43) for the Habs, who were bad. Ahead of Weinrich/Robidas/Souray.
9.*** 1997: #3 (21.07) on a decent playoff Habs team that lost to the Devils as expected.
10.* 1999: #3 (22:26) for an ok but ultimately non-playoff team, behind Weinrich and Malakhov
*
Blah, this is more than I ever wanted to talk about either of these guys.
*
Anyway, back to defense. I think we’re all pretty clear at this point about what Woolley does and doesn’t bring. Not much else to say.
*
goalies. I don’t have very strong feelings about either of your guys, they’re about average in their roles. Both cases of a fairly high but very short peak. For consistency and reliability purposes you may have wanted to get a longer career guy to back up Palmateer but that’s a minor gripe.
*
Bryan Murray fits in here. Nothing too over or underwhelming there.
*
I love Dvorak as a spare. He was arguably the BPA as far as bottom line RWs went. The reason is, he’s got a great history of killing penalties everywhere he went, even though he’s not a guy who pops into anyone’s head when they think of defensive forwards. He has proven he has the skill to fill in for a top-6 RW too, on a short term basis at least. Regina product Alex Motter is a decent defense pick for where he was taken. His resume as a legitimate NHL player for 5.3 seasons worth of games for teams just barely below average (-0.04) is approximately Eddolls territory (though Eddolls does have that ASG that he went to). He’s more than qualified to be a spare here, and if we “sorted out” all these O6 guys and sprinkled them appropriately throughout the MLD and AAA he’s probably a 2nd/3rd pairing guy here. Kozlov is meh. Didn’t see the point of that one. And we already talked about Tarnstrom, of course. I think relegating him to #8 was a smart move and I think that even an add/drop to pick up one of at least 100 other defensemen would have incrementally improved your lineup, but that’s of course not a big deal.
 

tony d

Registered User
Jun 23, 2007
76,589
4,548
Behind A Tree
London Lions​

Bryan Murray

Captain: Dale McCourt
Assistants: Murray Henderson and David Legwand

Ivan Boldirev - Robert Lang - Ray Sheppard
Paul Ysebaert - Dale McCourt - Joe Murphy
Pelle Eklund - David Legwand - Eddie Kullman
Brad May - Chris Gratton - Ronnie Stern
Viktor Kozlov - Radek Dvorak

Murray Henderson - Tom Poti
Dana Murzyn - Philippe Boucher
Colin White - Jason Woolley
Dick Tärnström - Alex Motter

Mike Palmateer
Darren Puppa

PP1
Ivan Boldirev - Robert Lang - Ray Sheppard
Phillipe Boucher - Tom Poti

PP2
Chris Gratton - Dale McCourt - Joe Murphy
Paul Ysebaert - Jason Woolley

PK1
David Legwand - Pelle Eklund
Murray Henderson - Dana Murzyn

PK2
Chris Gratton - Eddie Kullman
Colin White - Phillipe Boucher

Time to comment on this roster:

1st Line:

Boldriev was always a good player. That said that was as a centre. Don't know how he'll do in this role as a left winger. Offensively he's one of the top talents in this draft but I don't know how well he'll do as a left winger here instead of his natural centre position. Robert Lang was always a good player. In this draft he's in the middle pack as it comes to 1st line centres, he'll be a good point producer for your team in any event. Ray Sheppard seems to be the goal scorer here, he'll benefit from the natural playmakers on this line. Sheppard has 2 top 5 goal finishes to his credit and many 30 goal seasons, solid pick up. This 1st line won't do much defensively but offensively it could be as good as it gets, good job drafting here with your 1st line.

2nd Line:

Ysebaert was a solid player during his career, he was someone who did everything efficiently which is really good at this level. I had Mccourt in the 2012 AAA draft, he was a decent points producer during his career, Joe Murphy is the 2nd 1st overall pick on your team. Murphy never did live up to the expectations of a #1 pick but he was still a good player and looks good on the 2nd line of an AAA draft.

3rd Line:

Pelle Eklund was always a favourite of mine growing up. I figure had he not been drafted in the AAA draft he'd be in the running by me for 1st in the AA draft. He was a solid playmaker but he may get lost on a 3rd line as a smaller player, solid pick nonetheless. David Legwand was the first draft pick in Predators history and has gone on to be the top forward in that team's history, he plays a good defensive game which should serve your team well as he has been given a 3rd line role here. Eddie Kullman brings size to the 3rd line for your team which may be needed to protect Eklund and allow him to do his thing. This is a solid 3rd line, good job.

4th line:

Brad May must be here to be the enforcer for your team because he adds little in the way of scoring. I think there may be better 4th line left wing options out there but maybe not many better who are there for enforcer-only roles. Gratton's a good pick for a 4th line role. I had him as my 1st line centre in the 2011 AA draft, the guy can add scoring along with toughness, solid pick. I had Ronnie Stern last year and tell you he's perfect here for a 4th line. Solid 4th line here but I still have questions about the May pick.

1st Defensive Pairing:

Henderson's a good pickup and might be 1 of the better #1 defenseman in this thing. The guy may not add that much offensively, but defensively he's a stud, solid pick up. Poti's a good #2 as well but he has numerous injury concerns, Henderson should protect him but you have to wonder how well?

2nd Defensive Pairing:

Murzyn wasn't anything special offensively but defensively he was always pretty good, when Wayne Gretzky is quoted as saying he didn't enjoy playing vs. you you know he's good at what he does. Boucher will add a bit of offense here in addition to helping Murzyn out in a defensive role. I like the 2nd pairing for your team more than the 1st.

3rd Defensive Pairing:

Colin White reads as the prototypical 3rd pairing defenseman in that he'll play a good hard hitting shutdown role. He's been doing that in New Jersey for yrs. and will do that here as well. Jason Wooley plays more of an offensive game than is usually seen on a 3rd pairing, don;t know what kind of a shutdown game he plays, if I where you I'd switch Murzyn and Wooley so that you can utilize the strengths of both guys better.

Goaltending:

Palamateer had a good career but he had a short 1, that might cost your team a little here. Puppa's a good 1 but like Palmateer he had a relatively short career. That might cost your team a little here, I think I might have drafted a goalie with a longer career to play behind Palmateer or ahead of Puppa.

Coaching:

Murray's a good coach especially at this level. He didn't have much success in the NHL playoffs but at this level he's one of the better coaches.

Extras and Special Teams:

No comments really, it might have been a good idea to pick a left winger to play in place of May on the 4th line. Also due to Poti's injury history Tarnstrom may get called into duty from time to time. A 3rd string goalie could help as well given the short careers of Palmateer and Puppa. Special teams also look good though I might have put Eklund on the 2nd power play unit ahead of Gratton.

Final Thoughts:

Overall a decent enough lineup, good luck to you in this.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,131
Regina, SK
Michigan Wolverines

Red Berenson, Coach

Shawn McEachern - Viktor Zhluktov (C) - Wildor Larochelle
Chris Kunitz - Walt McKechnie - Sergei Svetlov
Benoit Hogue- George Ferguson (A) - Ken Schinkel
Chris Simon - Steve Rucchin - Matthew Barnaby
Yanic Perreault, Nelson Emerson

Keith Brown - Igor Stelnov
Moe Mantha (A) - Bert Marshall
Jimmy Orlando - Larry Zeidel
Pete Goegan, Mike Rathje

Guy Hebert
Hec Fowler

PP1: Shawn McEachern - Viktor Zhluktov - Wildor Larochelle, Keith Brown - Moe Mantha
PP2: Chris Kunitz - Walt McKechnie - Sergei Svetlov, Igor Stelnov - Steve Rucchin

PK1: George Ferguson - Ken Schinkel, Keith Brown - Igor Stelnov
PK2: Steve Rucchin - Benoit Hogue, Bert Marshall - Jimmy Orlando
*
I’m tentatively calling Zhluktov the top center in this draft, so good work there. I’m flexible on that, though. Seeing if anyone will make the case. Plus I have a winger who looks better on paper (even if you cherrypick Zhluktov’s best moments). McEachern as a secondary scorer on the first line is pretty weak by comparison. He’s at least versatile and can play through the lineup where needed. Larochelle, however, is an excellent glue guy for the first line. As top line glue guys go, he’s right there in the Murphy/O’Neill category (O’Neill isn’t as intense as those two or as consistent, but he’s in their class as a glue guy by being clearly a more talented scorer). Two very above average members + a very below average one + all the elements any line should have = well above par.
*
McKechnie is a solid player and I said so when you drafted him. However, I didn’t realize he was going on a 2nd line. He’d be a great 3rd liner or outstanding 4th liner but his numbers do lag a lot behind most of these other scoring line guys. He was also on such horrible teams that it’s a legitimate concern that as a “bad team scorer” his totals overrate him thanks to extra opportunities given by default. Svetlov and Kunitz are much better 2nd liners. Svetlov as a one-dimensional scorer with a 5th and 6th domestically and an 11th internationally. That’s not great, but pretty good still for a AAA 2nd line guy. Kunitz is a guy I wanted to make sure I wasn’t too hard on (you know me and shorter-career active players!) I took a really close look at his skill set and his peak scoring seasons. Obviously last year comes with an asterisk, but overall his numbers stand up fairly decently to other 2nd line grit players. I ended up looking at Granato as a comparable. Granato has a longer career at this point, but after his first 571 games he had 433 points, very similar to Kunitz’ current 424 in 605. It’s about 10% higher per-game, which is pretty much offset by the differences in league scoring. And both had their share of time with elite linemates. Kunitz has his intangibles but it seems Granato has a big edge in that regard nonetheless; his leadership, grit, work ethic, fearlessness, agitation, speed and even defense are pretty highly lauded, more so than Kunitz. (not so much defense, but it appears he was still a plus through hard work). So the way I kinda have it is, Kunitz + more intangibles + PK value + 200 extra games as a checker – a lot of team success in the playoffs = granato. What are your thoughts? You saw Granato lots I’d imagine. Anyway, point of all this is, if I like my own Granato as a provider of 2nd line toughness and finishing, then I have to like Kunitz too!
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Ferguson is a guy I like. I also like a lot of 3rd line centers here. He’s about average for what he does. Hogue I alluded to earlier. I admit I’ve underrated him in the past. He’s not as good defensively as a lot of guys on these 3rd lines but he’s better than at least a few, and arguably better than most as a two-way player. Schinkel, I might need some selling on.
*
Rucchin is an outstanding two-way 4th line center. My bio of him from last year says it all. I can’t say enough good things about the guy. He’s kinda limited with Simon and Barnaby down there. I am not saying that either one of them sucks. They were both decent players. They each scored 27+ points five times. One loves to fight and is not good at it, the other is outstanding at it but no one wants to fight him. These are the kinds of guys I advocate for over pure goons because they won’t hurt you. That said, two on the ice at once might be overkill. I do see the value as a “yin and yang” duo though. One to make messes and one to clean them up for him. I’m torn on these two together.
*
Brown, Marshall, and Stelnov are all about average in their roles. Brown and Marshall played a long time, getting above average minutes for above average teams. Being an important part of a successful team is all you can ask. Stelnov is not a guy I think really stood out but it was hard to on those USSR lineups. I still can see him above about half this class as an all-around player. Mantha as a #4 is pretty weak. He is possibly the most one-dimensional defenseman selected in this draft as a starter. Orlando and Zeidel are both players who are extremely tough but come with question marks about their abilities to handle minutes against all-time greats considering the length of time they lasted in the bigs. This is similar to Barnaby/Simon. One with a more experienced/faster partner would likely not hurt you. Two on the ice at the same time? That might hurt you.
*
Hebert and Fowler are both in the top-5 as starters and backups as far as I’m concerned, so well done. Emerson is an excellent spare considering his versatility and decent production. Rathje is not a bad player, but very one-way and it would be nice to see a two-way defenseman as a spare for you to have a better chance of replacing the skillsets in your lineup. Perreault is obviously a good faceoff specialist; everyone knows that. But unfortunately, his offensive and defensive games are just not AAA caliber. Though he’s not THAT far off. Goegan will require some selling, as a guy who played 4.7 seasons worth of O6 games. That’s not bad, but it was scattered around to an unusually high degree. In only three seasons could he really be termed an NHL regular. He’s probably on the very low end of O6 defensemen that have been selected so far. However, he’s not necessarily bad for this level, it really depends on what proportion the O6 guys should be sprinkled in with the modern guys throughout the drafts. Worse players have been picked for sure.
*
Berenson did a lot outside of the NHL but I don’t know if it’s enough to make him a great AAA coach along with all these other guys with 800+ games and Jack Adams awards to their credit. But I’m willing to listen.
*
Your forwards on the PP seem pretty underwhelming. I wish there were a couple of more “pure” offensive players you could slot in there. Mantha is on the first unit where he belongs. Brown and Stelnov as your 2nd and 3rd pointmen are far from idea, but the best you have. Can Rucchin play the point? I forget. Ferguson and Rucchin both killed a lot of penalties, though didn’t get very good team results. Hogue didn’t kill very many, he’s competent at best. Schinkel killed just 14% post-expansion so he’s questionable. His pre-expansion numbers (4 SHP in 265 games) indicated some SH time so he’s credible. However, Rucchin and Ferguson are clearly your best 2 and should go together on the first unit. On the second, Hogue can take faceoffs so that still works, then your two best guys see the ice the most.
*
Leadership: I don’t know anything about Zhluktov’s leadership. Could you explain why he’s a captain? And why Mantha’s an assistant? Scouting reports don’t indicate anything about his leadership and he reads like the most unidimensional defenseman ever, and those types of guys are rarely looked at as leadership figures. Ferguson I’m sure wore a letter here or there. Rucchin was actually a captain and he’s not wearing a letter at all. Ditto Marshall (though it was the Seals and just one season.) Brown and McKechnie are potential leaders here too. Personal recommendation: Rucchin captain, Marshall an assistant, your choice of Brown, Zhluktov, Ferguson, McKechnie as second assistant (pending your reply re: Zhluktov).
*
Relative to the league, this is probably the best team I’ve seen you build. You have a shot at a top half team in this league. Good work.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,131
Regina, SK
BELLEVILLE MACFARLANDS

Coach: Alain Vigneault
Assistant Coach: Peter DeBoer

Jim Riley - Bill Carson (A) - Earl Robinson
Michael Cammalleri - Mike Bullard - Murray Balfour
Armand Mondou - Terry Crisp (A) - Cecil Blachford
Scott Hartnell - Archie Hooper - Howie Meeker
Dave Schultz - Guyle Fielder

Doug Lidster - Frank Eddolls (C)
Dale Rolfe - Alex Edler
James Stewart - Dennis Wideman
Hal Gill

Mike Karakas
Tommy Salo


PP1: Mike Bullard-Jim Riley-Earl Robinson-Doug Lidster-Alex Edler
PP2: Bill Carson-Scott Hartnell-Michael Cammalleri-Archie Hooper-Dennis Wideman

PK1: Terry Crisp-Armand Mondou-Cecil Blachford-James Stewart-Frank Eddolls
PK2: Archie Hooper-Scott Hartnell-Murray Balfour-Dale Rolfe-Doug Lidster

1916 or earlier: Jim Riley, Cecil Blachford, Archie Hooper, James Stewart
1917-1942: Bill Carson, Earl Robinson, Mike Karakas, Armand Mondou
1943-1965: Murray Balfour, Frank Eddolls, Howie Meeker, Guyle Fielder
1966-1979: Terry Crisp, Dale Rolfe, Dave Schultz
1980-1994: Mike Bullard, Doug Lidster
1995-2004: Mike Cammalleri, Tommy Salo, Hal Gill
in 2013: Alex Edler, Scott Hartnell, Dennis Wideman​
*
Good old reliable chaos. Really balanced “all time†team. Really keeps in line with the “spirit of the ATD†;)
*
Bill Carson is a good #1 center. Comparing him even to his pre-expansion peers is tough because a good amount of his value comes from his time in the senior league, back when that was still meaningful. He’s in the group of guys who “belong†but determining whether he’s strong or weak for the role is not easy. I’m sorry Riley became a little bit of a statistical whipping boy when it came to the Charlie Tobin pick and then with my pick of Jack McDonald. Although I don’t think he’s as good as those players, he did show up pretty well in that chart of mine and after I reviewed everyone closely, I still found him to be an above average 1st line glue guy. He’s a little above average both offensively and in other skills so he will do the job pretty well. Robinson also became a mini-whipping boy when I was demonstrating Sorrell’s superiority (sorry about that). You know I like the guy. Actually, what’s really odd about him is that, despite him looking good by “best 6 seasonsâ€, those 6 seasons are literally all he has. Or more like 5, followed by a big drop off. But from 1933-1937, he was a well above average scoring winger for sure, and a guy I still rate highly here.
*
I think Bullard’s offensive game makes him an awesome AAA 2nd liner – elite, even. He doesn’t look out of place compared to a lot of modern 1st line centers. Like many of them, he’s quite one-dimensional. Cammalleri is an OK complementary scorer to go with him, but nothing too special. Balfour was a reach to expect him to play a grit/defense role on a scoring line. The offensive upside just isn’t there with him.
*
Crisp is a guy who reminds me a lot of my 4th liner Henning. Very good defensively, underwhelming offensively. Along with Yelle, they are two of the more one-way defensive centers here. Crisp’s penalty killing stats are good, very worthy of a AAA first PK unit; however, he reads more like a 4th line player to me. Mondou is an average 3rd liner, I don’t feel particularly strongly about him either way. Blachford is an excellent pick for down here. He was a leader and all-around utility guy for a dynasty. Though fairly weak offensively compared to his teammates, I recall doing some number crunching and determining that he was still around a Peplinski level offensively (which is far more than adequate for this role). Hooper is probably a better player than Crisp and deserves 3rd line minutes over him. I was surprised to see it myself, but check out his ranking in that list by Iain Fyffe I posted last night! Solid. Meeker and Hartnell are both among the better LW and RW on 4th lines in this draft. Whether you have Hooper or Crisp there, this line has a little of everything, and some might say a lot.
*
Practically my whole AAA defense corps became AAA #1s this time around – Reise, Poti, Hardy, and Lidster. I have Lidster just a shade below Hardy and is a solid, average #1 here – an all-around minute muncher who played 900 games. He wasn’t a major standout in any way but he had separate offensive and defensive peaks that were both impressive. Rolfe was the 5th member of that vaunted defense corps and probably 5th best of them. So you still did well having him as a #2, he looks good in that role and a good match for Edler with his size and immense strength. Stewart is hard to properly assess but when you took him he was getting too hard for me to resist (and I’m a guy who values evidence). Eddolls has taken a bit of a spill in my eyes considering all the other good MLD/AAA defensemen who lasted longer in the NHL, many for better teams. But that said, he’s still an average #4 (IMO) who won’t hurt you where he is. Edler is ok, nothing special, I’d like to see a longer career there. And Wideman – he’s a strong PP specialist and #6. It’s surprising to say that, but it’s true. He really kinda crept up on us* the last few years, but his “on paper†resume of TOI and points is as good as any of these other one-dimensional guys.
*
Karakas I had fairly high coming in but he kept looking less and less attractive the more I looked. I’ll give you the opportunity to sell me on him being an above average starter here, since you took him fairly early, but for now I see him as firmly below. Salo is right in the range for average backups and won’t lose you games.
*
Schultz provides one obvious skill should you need it. He wasn’t a terrible player either. Down here in the AAA he doesn’t look like the liability he might be in the MLD. There are plenty of worse goons you could have taken *coughandreroycough* Gill can step onto your PK if need be. That’s literally the one skill that makes him a AAA player.* And Fielder, the case can be made that he would be a second tier scorer for 15 years if the NHL was just 8 or 10 teams throughout his career. It’s a tough sell for some people and I understand, because it’s hard for me to wrap my head around just how we credit him for this.
*
As I said, Vigneault is somewhat of an innovator. If he proves to be better at giving your scorers more offensive zone faceoffs against weaker players and riding Crisp in the D-zone, you could dominate. Assuming, of course, Crisp is up to that. Is he a Malhotra-level defensive whiz? DeBoer I didn’t really see coming at all. I think he’s got a way to go before we make him a AAA coach.
*
Your PP units are set up well. I think you have your 3 most potent forwards, and then your next 3. Your PP pointmen are nothing special. Edler may be the best but lacks longevity (consistency at this level), whereas Lidster was consistently mediocre at it (but it was still him getting those chances and not someone else!) Can Hooper play the point? I assume that’s just a guess on your part. What about Stewart? I thought he was an offensively-oriented guy? Or am I thinking of someone else?
*
If I’m wrong about Stewart, then having him on the first PK makes sense, as well as Eddolls. Rolfe has excellent PK stats, and Lidster… at least killed a lot of penalties. So you have a solid quartet there. However, the way your forwards are set up, you’re going to be called for a lot of too many men penalties early in your penalty kills. *Might want to tell Hartnell (who has a nonexistent PK record) and Hooper (for whom little info exists) to sit it out, and put Blachford on the first unit. You’re in good shape there.
*
Leaders: Hooper was a captain. Something to consider. What’s the case for your letter-wearers? Just curious because no one jumps out at me as a leader aside from Hooper. Bullard was occasionally a head case, but he does have captain experience. Maybe a letter at least? Your call.
*
Good luck rising to the top of the top-5 jumble in your division. Don’t be too disappointed to finish 5th or get too big a head if you’re 1st. It’s gonna be close either way, I think.
 

Rob Scuderi

Registered User
Sep 3, 2009
3,378
2
Thanks Hedberg, I wanted to review your lineup and Budsbuster's also, but 70s beat me to the punch so maybe I'll copy your idea and do mini-reviews.
- Stumpel is another borderline top line centre, but you made a great move pairing him with longtime team-mate Glen Murray. Were they linemates? Kaleta is a nice compliment
I found one quote from 1998-99 that said they played together but that was all I found.

- I can't believe your defence is so good it has Brewer on the 2nd pairing and he may be better than Murphy and Evans, but I think the shut down pairing on the top unit makes sense. However, does it make sense to have a top defence pairing with little offensive ability?
- Bladon is one of the top powerplay guys in this draft, good choice. Why are Brewer and Trapp not on the PP? (maybe over Murphy and Manery?)
Murphy was a two-way guy who some good offensive years. He scored 40 points three times and 30 points twice. The scouting reports said Svehla took over as the Panthers best offensive defenseman and Murphy went from a guy needing a physical stay-at-home partner early in his career to someone who could cover for a puckmover.

I got the impression Brewer's offense never became all it was expected to, he hit 29 points twice but never over 30 points.

Here's what overpass's stats say for the three of them on the PP
|GP|$PPP|$PPP/S|PP%|TmPP+
Murphy|862|134|12|43%|0.86
Manery|582|104|14|51%|0.93
Brewer|888|81|7|28%|0.81
 

Rob Scuderi

Registered User
Sep 3, 2009
3,378
2
Rome Frenzy

22_zpsb4b0b477.jpg


Coach: John Muckler

Joe Juneau - Lorne Campbell - Jeff Carter
Danny Grant A - Hib Milks - Bud Poile
Lars-Eric Lundvall - Nils Nilsson - Ronald Pettersson
P.J. Axelsson - Manny Malhotra A - Colin Patterson
Tom Fergus - Mark Johnson

Karel Gut C - Ralph Bowman
Marcus Ragnarsson - Alex Smith
Rick Smith - Yevgeni Paladiev
Jim Dorey - Jack Ruttan

Bert Lindsay
Niklas Bäckström

PP1: Juneau - Campbell - Carter - A. Smith - Gut
PP2: Grant - Milks - Nilsson - Poile - Paladiev
PK1: Malhotra - Axelsson - Bowman - Ragnarsson
PK2: Juneau - Patterson - A. Smith - R. Smith


1916 or earlier - Lorne Campbell
1917-1942 - Hib Milks
1943-1965 - Nils Nilsson
1966-1979 - Jim Dorey
1980-1994 - Colin Patterson
1995-2004 - Manny Malhotra
in 2013 - Jeff Carter
I really like that you managed to get an all-European unit from an era that people shy away from and make them a legitimate third line. It's usually tough to find info on playing styles for European players and all three of them were praised for their defensive game without giving anything up offensively. Nils Nilsson seems like he was the biggest star of the group with the WC all-star and Goldpuck award.

I swear Billy was critical of using Jeff Carter on the wing in one of these drafts awhile ago, but Carter plays the wing with Richards in LA right? If my memory's right, his criticism was before that.

Danny Grant and Bud Poile are studs for a second line. I think Poile is the best offensive RW in the draft after Murray and Kessel.

Gut's so hard to get a feel for. It's possible he's your 5th best defenseman. I think that I definitely prefer Alex Smith and Bowman to him, both had quotes calling them star defenseman. Rick Smith never got a ton of time on ice, but he played for really good teams a rarity for defensemen here.

Lindsay's also difficult to get a read on. I thought of him when I drafted Fowler last year and he definitely seemed like the best pre-NHL goalie available coming into the draft. I'm not sure where that makes him stand up overall.

Did Poile play the point on the powerplay? I'd see if you can make room for him on your top unit if so.

You have some really impressive PK forwards.

Overall, I think this is a pretty formidable team. Milks and Carter aren't as good as the rest of your top six but you probably have the best second line wingers. I think you have a good defensive group, I'm a fan of the Smiths and Bowman.

Burmingham Barracuda's

Coach - Jacques Martin

Greg Adams - John Cullen - Phil Kessel
Justin Williams - Dan Quinn - Wayne Connelly
Randy Burridge - Thomas Plekanec - Pat Boutette
Rick Dudley(C) - Radek Bonk - Matt Cooke

Mark Hardy - Paul Martin (A)
Barret Jackman (A) - Brad Stuart
Lyle Odelien - Jaro Spacek

Goaltenders
Jose Theodore (1)
Viktor Zinger (2)

Spares
Frank Rankin (Rover)C/D
Mark Hunter RW
Lou Lameroux D
Joffery Lupul LW

PP1
Adams - Quinn - Kessel
Martin - Hardy

PP2
Burridge - Cullen - Connelly
Stuart - Spacek

PK1
Plekanec - Cooke
Jackman - Martin

PK2
Bonk - Boutette
Stuart - Odelien
70s asked about how people view Kessel and Bonk earlier. I'd agree Kessel's the second best winger in the draft, as Nedved's playing center. Also, I think Bonk could be the best third line center in the draft if you put him there, so how you have him on the 4th line without weak centers in front of him is sort of amazing.

Cullen and Quinn aren't weak, but they're more average top sixers who don't stand out. My main criticism of your second line is I wonder if Quinn is the type of guy you need to build around. He seemed pretty weak defensively and I'm not sure William's solid two-way play is enough to offset that.

So much physicality in that bottom six. I like Cooke here too, I considered him and he played both wings in Pittsburgh.

I wanted Hardy and Martin. I think Hardy was a really solid first pick. Martin was voted the Penguins best defenseman last year as well, not sure if it was a players, coaches, or management vote though. I saw you listed some of his international teams, just wanted to let you know he made the US Olympic team in 2010 as well but missed it with a broken arm.

I had no idea Brad Stuart scored as many points as he did. He has the most adjusted even-strength points of any of your defensemen and more than any of my defensemen.

Like I said before I'd flip Spacek and Martin on your PP units.

I'm not a big Theodore fan despite the immense peak value.

I had Martin pretty high on my list of coaches coming into the draft basically alongside Bryan Murray. He might hate Dan Quinn, but I think he'll love your defensemen.

Overall, I think you have a really strong team. I had a really hard time sizing up each conference when VI posted them, but I thought you switching sides was sort of a break for the O'Brien conference.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,131
Regina, SK
Barlow looks good for a first line center here… like most 1st line centers. ‘nuff said. After converting Serge Bernier’s numbers from the WHA over to get an apples-to-apples idea of what his offensive worth is like, it appears he’s on the low end for a top line scoring winger, but passable. It would be nice to see a bio and know what else he brings besides offense. As of now, I assume not too much. Malone has an offensive resume that wouldn’t scare Ilkka Sinisalo, but he does bring some important non-offense skills to this line. Quite a few GMs in this draft managed to get a “glue guy†who had a more established record of production, demonstrating the ability to keep up with their more skilled linemates… but then, some GMs made no attempt to get a “glue guy†at all. I think you’re better off than them.

Ronning is right in the middle for 2nd line centers for me. An admirable little guy and consistent player. But his peak production is not as strong as some guys. Brings no defensive or physical value, just points. Which is ok; it just means that his point production is what he should be solely judged on. Rucinsky and Novak read like bargain basement 2nd liners, which should be fine considering that’s exactly how you drafted them. Novak played 41 international games that really mattered. While he scored at a pretty good rate for those games (28 goals, 34 points), finding 1970s European forwards with 41 international games in the 1970s is not particularly hard right now. What made him the most worthy pick, why did he stand out among available players? That’s the kind of stuff I need to be sold on. You gave him a giant boost up after taking him two years ago for the first time; some selling would be appreciated. Rucinsky is a guy I’m surprised to see was selected down in the 1600s two years ago and not at all last year. He’s bargain basement, but admittedly he did deserve to move up. Did he deserve to go up this much? Maybe not quite. But he is a passable 2nd liner and he’s a clear step up from other guys like Anson Carter, Kristian Huselius and Donald Audette. Who’s providing the intangibles for this line? Who’s the Malone?

Greg Malone stacks up really quite well to most 3rd line centers here. He has a proven offensive game and a well documented defensive game. It never earned him Selke votes but that’s true of almost everyone in this draft (and it’s debatable what one season’s worth of votes even matters to a career evaluation at this point). I really enjoy the quotes I found on Malone a couple years ago; he and Schock I found in the same AA draft and he reads like a shorter career Schock to me. Dave Hunter is a guy I was really impressed with when I read more on him. He looks like a shorter career version of Grier in a few ways – Great defensively, very physical yet (relatively) clean at the same time, underrated offensively considering the coach only ever put him on the PP by accident… and honestly, the way 1980s careers went, a 746-game career at that time is more or less the same as a 1060 game career today.

That’s the good news about your 3rd line. The bad news is Ville Peltonen. For the life of me I can’t see why he deserves selection now or anytime soon. Let me start by saying that I think that the way he’s scored in big international tournaments is pretty cool. He deserves commendation for what he did with this opportunity in these games (that represent exactly 2% of his career of 1507 recorded games). However, if he was Canadian, American, Russian, Swedish or maybe even Czech, he would not have played in most or all of those tournaments, so the circumstance of being a “big fish†in the small Finnish “pond†should not be used to prop him up more than is deserved. In his first trip to North America, Peltonen played 175 games in the NHL and 122 games in the minors – at age 22-27 – hardly the mark of a champion. When he came back in his 30s, he was clearly an NHL-caliber top-9 forward. For three seasons. For a Florida team whose main achievement was missing the playoffs on the third tiebreaker. In fact, he never played for an NHL team that made the playoffs. His 148 points in 382 games are not noteworthy, nor is the fact that he killed 21% of penalties for teams in his career that were 4% worse than average. This would make him a competent AAA penalty killer for a second unit IF it was a level of performance maintained over a full career, but 382 games? Nah. So I’m left wondering what makes him an AAA player at all. It’s not his offense, it’s not his defense (which was merely adequate and not rare in any way) and it’s not his physicality. Help me out here, someone other than VI tell me I’m out of line. :help:

Miller stacks up really well among 4th line centers here. He could have been an elite spare for someone too, because he’s a legitimate three-position forward and has no real weakness as a player. Cunneyworth is pretty standard 4th line fare. He’s not going to stand out in a good or bad way. Ridpath, again, I don’t know where I got those stats from in 2009 but they are incorrect. He was a decent offensive player for a very short time. It sounds like he was at least somewhat aggressive/determined so I can see him on a 4th line; however, I don’t see him being the secondary scorer for your team that you probably envision. I don’t have the NHA playoff stats broken up but I believe you when you say he was 2nd in NHA playoff scoring twice (those were two-game playoffs, right?) By the end of the cup matches he was 4th in 1910 and in a 4-way tie for 4th in 1911, behind his linemate Walsh both times, and the first time also well behind Stuart. As far as top level regular season play goes, he was 10th in scoring in 1910 (50% of the leader and 74% of his strongest linemate) and in 1911 he was 3rd (74% of his strongest linemate who was also the league leader, Walsh). It appears in 1911 he was the playmaker for the line, with 9 assists to their 5 and 3. I’d say he was maybe the “glue guy†but Walsh and Kerr were both pretty intense players too so I’d be devaluing them to say that with any certainty. Those are both pretty noteworthy seasons. Yes, even the 50% season. It’s an NHA era thing… Anyway, other than that he’s got the 1909 OPHL season (a second tier league) in which he placed 6th with 21 points. League leader was Tommy smith with 40. Another decent season that somewhat adds to his resume. The remainder of his senior level career contains 28 games at a variety of levels, most of them low, and 49 points. In the chart I made when I drafted McDonald I showed a number of forwards from the era who had 5+ decent or better seasons of top level hockey. Ridpath had two. It seemed that in those two years he was approximately as good as most of them (Don Smith, McDonald, Ronan, Tobin, Riley all have two top seasons in that range, most better) but then those guys have numerous other good seasons at the top level range. If we’re harshly cutting off his career where it stops without any projections, he’s not really that close to these guys’ league at all. If we’re generous to Ridpath (because after all, a lot of careers were short back then)… then they’ve still got a decent sized edge on him. Anyway…. Decent player, not gonna score too much.

Your defense is where your team really shines. Leo Reise has a solid case as the #1 defenseman in the draft and I might vote him as such. Babinov is also an excellent #2. It’s too bad we didn’t talk more about Soviet defensemen earlier in the draft when I asked you for your hierarchy; it interested me very much. Babinov belongs somewhere in that inexplicable 500+ pick gap that formed for no good reason. Laycoe is your #3 in my books. And potentially the best #3 in the draft. He has a quite impressive resume just by lasting in the NHL for as long as he did. I actually had no idea he would show so well in my study of the O6 defensemen, and had him as a borderline AAA pick coming into this. Holden is a strong #4; it might be accurate to say he is the Lorne Campbell of defensemen. A star at his position, he excelled in that lower league and has the accolades to prove it but was not proven as a star at the highest level. We do know that he played two seasons at that level (NHA, 1910, 1911) and doesn’t appear to have been deficient as a player, posting solid stats and lasting the whole season. By the way, I’m sure glad that puffery got removed from his Wikipedia entry. I checked the history, and it was removed for a “neutrality breach†… good call. Anyway, your second source is a good one and can just about be called primary. Fogolin and Leschshyn are both suitable #5 and 6 guys. I’m not sure how one picks Fogolin with Brad Marsh, Joe Cooper, and some others still on the board, or Leschshyn with Plager, Murzyn, Rick Smith, Sweeney, Matvichuk, and even the undrafted Keith Carney out there (an incredibly similar player whose GM is going to get an awesome value). But the incrementally higher value you may have earned would probably not make or break you in this tight division. Nothing to dwell upon.

Sugar Jim Henry will hold his own against most goalies in this draft. His resume is not quote at the level of a McNeil (the gold standard for an O6 AAA goalie) but it looks better than Karakas and Simmons for sure. Your backup? Well, I actually don’t have him as the least deserving goalie here. Although there are a couple dozen I would still rather see selected first , he should outperform Turek and Tugnutt at least. It would be nice to see you leave him next year and let someone else have him; it would help to understand how strong his case, if any, is, since you’re the only person who’s ever advocated for him.

I thought you took Burns unnecessarily early, and I guess you agreed in the end. However, he can play wing so he is a solid spare! Harris is also an elite spare center. His offensive stats are not GREAT, but I honestly think there are a lot of GP in there where his stats are tainted by playing just a couple of shifts. That’s how he was used sometimes. As a result, his offensive value falls into a wide possible range but even if it’s the worst possible, he’s a fair fill-in (and that’s perfect since apparently he couldn’t handle playing a lot anyway). Roach we also talked about. Your three subs were drafted pretty early for subs; it looks like your plans changed a couple times mid-draft.

Tessier’s not a bad coach for this level. But his resume isn’t as fleshed out as a lot of others here either. Three NHL seasons, one in the minors and 10 in junior. He did have a little NHL success and win the Jack Adams but there are other guys who did that and their resumes are fleshed out with a dozen more NHL seasons, as opposed to junior. Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t think junior coaching experience is worthless. I’ve drafted Brian Kilrea. But I recall you panning the pick, and the guy coached (and was quite successful) in junior for 35 years, so it kinda gives one the impression you don’t think too highly of junior coaches yourself. Anyway, getting McLellan as an assistant is a good idea; his list of successes is becoming as long as his NHL career is short.

Your captains and assistants seem OK. No one jumps out at me screaming “captainâ€. OK, well, I guess Fogolin does, since he was actually a captain (wasn’t he?). I don’t actually know if Barlow has a leadership resume. Do you?

You have no special teams. I’ll recommend some:

PP1: R.Malone – Barlow – Bernier – Babinov – Reise (seems like your best talent is all on the first line and pairing)
PP2: Rucinsky – Ronning – Novak – Holden – Laycoe (same with the 2nd unit and pairing. Holden is credible. Laycoe is really a stretch but the alternatives are worse. I see no forwards who could step in for anyone except maybe Miller for R.Malone if you’re so inclined)
PK1: Miller – Hunter – Leschshyn – Fogolin (your best and most experienced killers)
PK2: G.Malone – Cunneyworth – Babinov – Holden (R.Malone, Peltonen and Rucinsky are about as credible penalty killers as Cunneyworth, but with Malone and Rucinsky already on the PP, you’re likely looking at a choice between Pelts and Cunneyworth. Pick Cunney as he maintained the same efficiency for over twice as long)

It seems weird leaving Reise and Laycoe off the PK. Both of them could play it. You almost can’t go wrong with the penalty killing defensemen on the bottom pair. I’d recommend Leschshyn and Fogolin for the top though, since they’re not on the PK.

Your D could win you the division. But a lot of people’s a lot of things could win them this division. I look forward to seeing how it shakes out. Best of luck, and thanks for your work running the draft.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,130
6,428
Thanks for the review. I agree with most of it.

The attention and time you've put into reviewing teams this draft is outstanding!
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,131
Regina, SK
Regina Direwolves self review

As I’ve mentioned, I feel pretty fortunate with this team. I had a lot of luck and stole a lot of guys from some of you.

The first line is centered around Nedved but his LW, Sorrell, has an offensive resume just as impressive in my opinion. Nedved was the guy I had as the “most talented†heading into this draft. Did that mean I had him as the “best� Not quite. Above average for a 1st line, yes, if we’re splitting that hair. But we know Nedved was a guy whose talents and results weren’t always congruent. However, his resume can stand or fall based on what he did, not on what he did compared to what was expected of him. “Bench?†:laugh: (by the way, I just caught Rob Scuderi’s comment about Nedved being a potential LW. My understanding was that he was rarely a LW and if I thought he was credible at that position at all, I’d have drafted him as a LW and my lineup would have possibly taken a completely different turn!) Sorrell’s not only a very strong offensive LW with the best sustained prime of production, but he also scored at an even higher rate in the playoffs, in a decade where scoring absolutely plummeted in April. And it’s an extensive sample, too – a whole season’s worth of playoff games. Murphy will be the unsung hero of the team. Drafting a guy like Murphy, you get the opportunity to simply “draft for stats†with your other two picks. I don’t recommend this at the MLD level – he doesn’t have MLD scoring line upside. But at the AAA level, absolutely. He provides all the defense and physicality Sorrell and Nedved need to succeed and to balance their weaknesses. He’s also an outstanding leader for this level, a six year captain who can only impact Nedved positively. And Nedved does need that.

My second line came together in a weird way. Art Jackson was penciled in as my guy before the draft began. Dave stole him from me and I simply could not let that stand. Thankfully, he let me pay a high price to get him back to Regina. I think his offensive resume stands up to any 2nd line center here, and as an added bonus he is a quite conscientions defensive player too. Billy Harris was drafted on day 2 to be the 2nd line’s version of Mike Murphy. But along the way, I decided I really wanted to steal Golikov right at the end of the draft and that meant make Harris a LW (where he may not be credible) or get a reasonable replacement because Golikov, for all his outstanding scoring accomplishments (the most outstanding in the draft?) doesn’t have intangibles himself. Enter Granato. Granato doesn’t have Harris’ size – he doesn’t really have size at all – but he had everything you’d want in a player. I had him tabbed as a bottom 6 player but it didn’t take long for him to get to the top of that pile and his offense was in the same range as a number of other scoring line guys being taken so I thought why not. He’s not imtimidating, he’s too small to be. But he is physical and intense, and the line is now defensive enough by committee. It’s as balanced a 2nd offensive line as I could put together in this draft.

Harris ended up on the 3rd line, where he is a standout both offensively and defensively. It’s actually a strong two-way line that, relative to the draft it’s in, might be my best ever. Dahlstrom was a very good defensive forward himself, with best 6 percentage scores totaling over 300. And Boll was over 340, he too with a solid case as a two-way utility type forward. If there’s a weakness it’s that there’s not really a mean bone in their bodies though. This line won’t kill or intimidate you. But Dahlstrom was a plucky, courageous guy, Harris was big, strong and hard to move. Boll was determined in all zones. It has great potential.

I had my eyes in Henning a long time. He’s definitely the best penalty killer in the draft. He’s that good at it. Results at even strength may be mixed but I find it hard to believe that there wasn’t something up with his usage by Al Arbour if he was able to score with relative ease while shorthanded while being relatively inept at even strength. Anyway, Plett was my #1 choice all along for a “goon who can play†at forward, with Dan Maloney very close behind. Scott Walker would have sufficed as well. Then with Golikov in my plans already I looked at my lineup and decided I wanted one more offensive ringer. McDonald was the guy. His percentage scores are through the roof for a pre-merger guy taken now. Plus multiple sources confirm that despite his size, he was not just a slight, weak, one-dimensional player. That said, we had a spot on the PP that needed filling and I think it’s logical that he’ll have an even easier time scoring there. At even strength, this line is kind of a mishmash that will give the top 3 lines some rest, but it’s full of players who specialize in specific things and can move up the lineup when needed, and 2 of the 3 will be important on special teams.

Tregubov was discussed at great length back when I selected him. I welcomed the opportunity to defend the pick, and was honestly surpised that I had to defend him in the 1100s. I fully accept that he should have fallen from his usual ATD slot, but I don’t think I’m being unrealistic when I say he could be a top MLD defenseman. The question mark is of course the competition level he faced. The list of MLD (and even ATD) comparables is long, and if Tregubov is really just a AAA player, the implications for a lot of players are quite profound.

I actually consider Reg Hamilton my #2. Yes, I’m actually that high on this guy. He was a #2-4 defenseman for teams that were consistently strong, for longer than almost any defenseman from the O6 selected going all the way back through the MLD. He did earn all-star recognition (yes, in a war year, but then that was past his prime, too) and quotes indicate what he was good at, so he’s not much of a mystery. Marsh is my #3. What really jumped out at me was that he managed to be a 20+ minute guy for 900 games, and for outstanding teams. The Flyers were his team for most of the 80s, and they may have been the second best team of the decade. And he was usually their #3 ES/PK defenseman, eating up the majority of the minutes that Mark Howe (a huge minute hog) and McCrimmon weren’t taking. The quotes about all his excellent skills can be found everywhere; his bio could have been twice as long. He did literally everything at an elite level for this draft, with the exception of skating, fighting, and puck-related things (lol) but that still leaves a lot, like: penalty killing, clutching/grabbing, hitting, positional defense, crease clearing, leadership, shot blocking. And that sounds like some nondescript stay at home defensemen in a lot of ways, but when you do it for that many minutes and your teams are that successful with you playing such a role, you deserve more prompt selection. Weaknesses? Not a whiz with the puck. Typically referred to as slow.

I have Al Hamilton as my #4. While I still can’t get behind TDMM’s assertion that Hamilton is better than Barry Gibbs, or really all that close, I have sold him short in the past. He’s not just an offensive defenseman, and in fact his offense is not even that impressive when you adjust for the WHA. He is a two-way guy with a wide range of skills, none of them particularly standout, and no real weaknesses. I like him with Reg, because Reg is the same (his offense is quite underrated) but one’s more offensive and one’s more defensive.

Brisebois is a guy no one really “likes†to pick. But it had to be done. We had a conversation about him already earlier on and about how I’d rather take an offensive specialist who proved he could handle more responsibility in real life than just 2nd/3rd pairing and PP. Also, the PPs he contributed to were actually good, which is rare for PP specialist defensemen at this level. After that it was just a matter of taking a stay at home tough guy, puck skills optional, to cover his weaknesses. Couldn’t get Odelein. Couldn’t get Snepsts. Had barely begun to consider Jackman and Plager when they were gone. Finally settled on Art Moore. Would have probably moved to Jim Dorey had I missed out on Moore. I’m glad I got Moore though. It gave me the impetus to get some more quotes on him, which I managed to do. And it wasn’t easy, either.

Hrudey is not the best starter in this draft, but I think he’s well above average. All things considered, he’s a “Potvin Plusâ€. I was actually a little surprised to see just how highly he was regarded circa 1987-1989. Robertson, IMO, was a steal as a backup and should be a starter here. A cup, 2nd and 3rd all-star teams, twice top-5 for the Hart? In a backup? You kidding me?

I was quite pleased to steal Sutter from a Rideau assistant coach job that he was far overqualified for. Sutter was beloved by Brett Hull and if you read his bio, Brett gives an extraordinary amount of credit for his development as a player. 1st, 2nd, 2nd in Adams voting is pretty sweet for this level. And he has an established history of making things better for the teams that hire him. And when they get impetuous and fire him, things don’t get better, they get worse. Laperriere is a guy I had done a lot of reading on and the amount of reverence defensemen have for him as a teacher was really impressive. He had a tendency to coach better than average PK units and teach defense corps who didn’t allow a lot of shots.

I am in love with Bob Turner and I humbly suggest he could play in anyone’s top 6 or higher (maybe the MLD). I’m happy to have him in his real life role: a D/W swingman. Check out the quotes in his bio. He is remembered well by those who saw him. He lasted not quite as long as a guy like Hamilton, but he stayed up with an even better team, the late 50s Habs. Havlat and Murphy were two multi-wing spares I just had to have, Havlat strictly for offense and Murphy for both (he was remarkably consistent and would not look out of place as a top-6 glue guy here… at all. His best 6 scores are 294, not far behind Murphy, Granato and Harris and you know what I think of them.) That said, I realize his claim as a viable RW is a tad on the weak side. Havlat was truly 50/50 LW/RW though.

PP units are pretty easy to explain. My two most potent forwards (aside from Nedved) up front, Harris for net presence, then Nedved on the point. I think he’s one of only two legitimate pointman forwards here, correct me if I’m wrong. He had excellent passing and vision, but a weak slap shot. Tregubov, however, had an outstanding slap shot. So I think they make a perfect “quarterback, triggerman†pair. The unit has big Harris standing in front and grinding down low as well. I like it a lot. The second is my next three most potent forwards (again, Golikov may be my MOST potent forward) and then two more than passable pointmen. Believe me, it’s a struggle for me to find PP pointmen I can live with. Somehow I managed.

Henning killed 57% of penalties for units 25% better than average. He rules. Murphy was up at 36% but his teams weren’t nearly as successful. Marsh’s PK stats are also outstanding. Before his decline went into full effect, he had played 930 games, killing 51% for PKs 14% above average. Reg Hamilton has no actual PK resume to speak of, seeing as he’s an O6 player. I’m simply assuming as a strong defensive player he would be good. Second unit has Dahlstrom, such a prolific penalty killer for an O6 player that it’s actually noted by a few sources, and Granato, who is… at least competent. (I could have used someone like Harris, or even McDonald or Boll but I really wanted to do the whole “one special teams job per player†thing). Tregubov and Moore, both solid defensively, round it out. Only Tregubov is on two special teams. Only Plett isn’t on one. But keep your heads up at even strength.

I didn’t seek to steal every captain in this draft but I sure did well in that regard by accident. Murphy was a six-year captain, he gets the C. Hamilton was a 4-year WHA captain and deserves an A. Marsh was twice a one-year captain in the NHL and has tons of quotes on his leadership. He gets the other A. If one of them is injured, Art Moore is assistant #3. He captained the Silver Seven for one season.

Anyone else have some feedback? It should come as no surprise that I like this lineup a lot but other opinions would be appreciated.
 

MadArcand

Whaletarded
Dec 19, 2006
5,872
411
Seat of the Empire
I think you underrate Peltonen a bit - you ignore his contribution in World's (which are, frankly, more important games than you give them credit for), and he was an integral part and leadership figure on those Finnish teams.

I'm not exactly a big fan of his, but there are dozens of worse picks than him, stretched all the way from ATD down here to AAA.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,130
6,428
I think you underrate Peltonen a bit - you ignore his contribution in World's (which are, frankly, more important games than you give them credit for), and he was an integral part and leadership figure on those Finnish teams.
Yes, he was. I remember being impressed by him time and again. He owned the larger ice surface at times, was an impact player. Perhaps I need to dig up some more bio references to the fact.

seventieslord said:
...if he was Canadian, American, Russian, Swedish or maybe even Czech, he would not have played in most or all of those tournaments, so the circumstance of being a “big fish” in the small Finnish “pond” should not be used to prop him up more than is deserved.
He scored time and again AGAINST Canada, USA, Russia, Sweden and the Czechs!! The opposite of being a big fish in a small pond, he was a small fish in a big pond and he thrived! Four Olympic medals, three time IIHF all-star selection for his individual play, and captain of an impressive 2004 World Cup team that made it to the final, and he was top-25 in career international scoring in best on best tournaments (1972-2006). The fact that he was Finland's most prolific scorer on the big stage is just icing on the cake.

As I said in the bio, I remember at his peak his skills were ill-suited to the clutch-and-grab era of NHL hockey, but as an older player in his 16th to 18th seasons of pro hockey he was a solid Bottom-6 role player for the Florida Panthers (one of the few reasons I watched them play). He would have had a Pivonka-like NHL career I think in the new era NHL if it had begun 15 years earlier.

He demonstrated his skills and his peak ability against the very best of his era. If he had had a decent NHL career he would be a MLD top-6 forward instead of a AAA Bottom-6 forward. He brings intangibles of leadership (and not just for wearing the 'C', he really stood out as a communicator on the ice and the bench), hard work, clutch play and "solid at both ends of the ice" as the The Hockey News put it. He was quite the competitor.

On the Rideau Hall team, having Malone and Hunter as linemates ought to free up some open ice for him to play off against and in combination with one of the three rushing Rebel defensemen (while Malone or Hunter go to the net, the other gritty third liner heads to the corners or traffic areas). I thought I had put Peltonen in a good position to thrive, especially given the great footspeed (remarkable speed actually) of the Rebels squad. This was a team built to fly and Peltonen ought to benefit from the style of play (both coaches also emphasize quickness). Peltonen is responsible in his own zone but won't have to take on the biggest dmen with his linemates zipping in as well.

Side note: If you imagine him not being at all able to handle his own in a Bottom-6 role (being a liability) against AAA teams then imagine the coaches would decide during the season to move Miller to that right wing and Harris slipping into the line-up. As GM one provides the tools and lets the coaches and players do the work. I always give teams I am evaluating some slack in terms of line formations if I believe an alternative formation is so much better as long as the team has the skaters (starters and extras) to cover for whatever question marks I may have for the squad. As I've often said, every team can handle a question mark or two, as long as there are others able to step in in case. That's why career Euros who never play in Olympics, World Cups or other best on best tourneys get the benefit of the doubt from me if they have a back up plan (though a top-6 forward or top pairing dman slot is pretty risky, such a player ought to have sheltered minutes or be a bench option ideally); the same goes for an injury-prone player.
 
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ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,882
pittsgrove nj
I apologize for not being able to review a team. I've been super busy with Family stuff, due to Thanksgiving. I will send in My standings today.
 

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