A two part question about Parise, Michalek and Vanek

[Jason MacIsaac]

Isn't Parise a little overhyped? Yeah, he has a well rounded game, but so did Derek Roy in the CHL and you don't see everyone running around saying "Roy is gonna be a superstar".

But Regier drafted Roy and not Lou. And MacGuire questioned picking Roy so early, but he praised picking Parise so late.

Roy is 5`9 vs Parise being 5`11, Roy in the 2nd round and Pairse in the 1st, Roy never dominated the CHL allthough he put up solid numbers where Parise ripped apart the college scene with Heatley type numbers. Roy did well in the WJC where Parise dominated. Roy was picked by Buffalo who screwed up alot of picks in the past where Parise was picked by guru scout David Conte who is known to be one of the best scouts in the world.

Yea, they are similar....

 

[X-SHARKIE]

So Vanek gets outscored by Parise in the same league but puts up 30 points more per season then Parise.....Don't joke yourself, Parise has the potential to be a superstar just as Vanek has. Saying Parise will be a 50-60 point player is kindof a slap in the face considering how he did in prep school, college, WJC.

Agreed, I don't think he spent enough time watching the College scene this year.

Parise offensive upside is not limited to 50-60 points by any stretch. He's been a scorer at every level he's played at, Just because he's 5-11 and Vanek is 6-2 doesn't mean Vanek is going to put more points up. Crazed I think you grossly underated Parise finishing and play making skills. He's one of the best talents in all of the NHL prospects.

And Vanek isn't soft? How many times have you seen this guy make a hit? how many times have you seen this guy go on his knees to block a shot, how many times have you seen this guy doing the hard work in the corners.

Just because he goes in front of the net and takes a beating, doesn't hide the fact crazed that Vanek doesn't do the dirty work unless it means a rebound is on his stick with an open net.
The guy is a floater, I never seen him take one for the team, I never seen block a shot, I never seen this guy play with any heart or grit, witch makes me think he is a soft guy.
He was even softer in his USHL days when I saw him about 5 times.

Saying THomas Vanek is going to put in 90 points, lol, I can't see him being up there with the Kovalchuks and Naslunds of this day.

In todays league heart,soul,charector mean more then it ever has. Zach Parise has everything it takes to suceed in the NHL were as Vanek still has alot of question marks. He seems to contempt with just being a player for 1 minute a game.
His goal scoring instincts and ability is unmatched and he's quite the powerful player, I can see him being a deadly player.
But he's got allooonnggg way to go, and saying he isn't soft just because of the wacks he takes, is wrong, but mabey are opinions on a soft player is different.

 

[Vagrant]

Last season at this time I would have taken Michalek, but that was before he essentially had a wasted year with injuries in his first campaign with San Jose. After this, i'd probably take Parise due to the fact that he's been playing a great deal of hockey over the last year and his game has rounded out into an NHL type game in the past year. Has he been a little overhyped? Perhaps. Though I really don't think it's going to make much of a differance in the long run. Parise has great offensive instincts, a nice defensive game, and a really strong desire to succeed. Perhaps i'm not familiar with Michalek as I should be due to the fact that he's a Czech, but i've seen enough of Parise to lead me to think that he's going to be a player in the very near future. New Jersey has a pretty decent shot at moving him along next year. In my mind, Parise has essentially a full year of development over Michalek.

As for Vanek, he's not soft as some here claim. There is a differance between being unmotivated to fight away from the puck and being soft. When Vanek wants the puck, he's like a bull in a china shop. When the play is away from him, he's as soft as a down comforter. It's motivation that is the main problem for Vanek, and that is what has drawn a few Pavel Brendl comparisons. Like Brendl, Vanek has a fabulous skill set and a really impressive shot, he just doesn't show the desire to do the little things that will lead him to success at the NHL level. In the NCAA, the talent level isn't so high that you can't be a scoring machine without doing the little things. While Vanek has been a great finisher and point producer with the Gophers, he hasn't exactly been Mr. Everything the way that players with a great deal more heart, like the aforementioned Parise, are Mr. Everything to their respective teams. This isn't intended to be a slam against Vanek, but it's going to take a lot of work on his motivation if he's going to be a high point producer at the NHL level. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of Vanek pushers that are going to come out and say, "That's not true! In the _____ (insert random game), he ______ (insert random act of courage)", but this is just my opinion on having seen Vanek play. In other words, it means nothing but just being my observation.

 

[X-SHARKIE]

Ok well I guess my opinion on soft differs from some of the others here.

I agree when the puck is in a scoring opertunity he is a very strong player.

Away from it or trying to create somthing with it, he's a soft kid especially for a 6-2 205 pounder.

 

[MN_Gopher]

I have seen Vanek play in almost every game in a gopher uni(no thanks to AA). He does do the little things and on more than one occasion, he will go down to block shots, lays some great hits, and back checks. I will say he does it in almost exclusivly in big games. I have seen the last two final fives in person. And the reginals his fresh year. There is a reason he had 10 shots on goal and 2 pipes in the Notre Dame game. Was the MOP in the NCAA in his fresh year. In a game against Tech, cross him off the hustle list. I was glad that the Wild did not have a chance to take lazy, floater, waste of talent Dany Heatley. I could tell you all sorts of bad things about Heatley, And now i feel dumb. And IMO Vanek will be the same. If anything it is motivation. He can and does play a well rounded game of hockey just not every night.

 

[Moskau]

Could it just be Vanek is tired of playing in the NCAA?

 

[X-SHARKIE]

Yeah Thomas Vanek does remind me alot of Danny Heatly and it could be a simple he's just board.

It happens in NCAA as well as the CHL. I wouldn't be surprised to see him wind up like Danny Heatly, but when players with his talent don't do the other things it takes to be a great player, it irks me.

 

[VanCanuck]

Milan Michalek will play next season with Pat Marleau. the two are gonna dominate.

 

[Puckhead]

Roy is 5`9 vs Parise being 5`11, Roy in the 2nd round and Pairse in the 1st, Roy never dominated the CHL allthough he put up solid numbers where Parise ripped apart the college scene with Heatley type numbers. Roy did well in the WJC where Parise dominated. Roy was picked by Buffalo who screwed up alot of picks in the past where Parise was picked by guru scout David Conte who is known to be one of the best scouts in the world.

Yea, they are similar....

This pretty much sums up everything I would have said, well done. I would like to add that what Parise has accomplished thus far in his college career is nothing to sniff at. To say he is overhyped is simply an ignorant comment. Yes, Vanek has had some great success at the college level aswell, but this thread is about who will be the best point producer over his career in the NHL. Michalek is a very well rounded player, which simply means that he does everything well, but not great, and has limited potential as a big time point producer, much like the fans of the Panthers will find out about Olesz, who they selected 7th overall in the '04 draft. What I am saying is, that while Vanek will no doubt be a sniper, I feel that Parise has all the tools already to be big time player. When you factor in some experience, I believe the sky is the limit, and David Conte, and New Jersey Devils have done it again. What a steal!!! To answer the thread question in one line...Parise will hands down be the top point producing forward over his career, when comparing him to Vanek, and Michalek.

 

[Sammy*]

This pretty much sums up everything I would have said, well done. I would like to add that what Parise has accomplished thus far in his college career is nothing to sniff at. To say he is overhyped is simply an ignorant comment. Yes, Vanek has had some great success at the college level aswell, but this thread is about who will be the best point producer over his career in the NHL. Michalek is a very well rounded player, which simply means that he does everything well, but not great, and has limited potential as a big time point producer, much like the fans of the Panthers will find out about Olesz, who they selected 7th overall in the '04 draft. What I am saying is, that while Vanek will no doubt be a sniper, I feel that Parise has all the tools already to be big time player. When you factor in some experience, I believe the sky is the limit, and David Conte, and New Jersey Devils have done it again. What a steal!!! To answer the thread question in one line...Parise will hands down be the top point producing forward over his career, when comparing him to Vanek, and Michalek.

So, Mr Conte,
Why did every scout/GM or virtually every scout/GM in the NHL have Vanek rated way higher all of a year ago.
BTW, wasnt guru Conte the same guy who authored the Sherrif, Ward, Damphousse,Ahonen,Hale, Foster 1st round picks over the last few years ?

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

So, Mr Conte,
Why did every scout/GM or virtually every scout/GM in the NHL have Vanek rated way higher all of a year ago.
BTW, wasnt guru Conte the same guy who authored the Sherrif, Ward, Damphousse,Ahonen,Hale, Foster 1st round picks over the last few years ?

Whats wrong with Hale and Ahonen......hale had an excellent rookie season and Lou is beyond pleased with his development. Ahonen is NHL ready and will continue to wait for Marty to get injured or leave NJ. Foster is tough to count out right now. He has the talent to be one of those late bloomers but he needs to stay healthy. When you are getting Elias, Vrana, Pihlman, Martin, DeMarchi, Suglobov in the 2nd round you can take risks like that.

Why else wouldn't they rank Vanek over Parise, he has 3 inches on him and 20 pounds at the time. If you switch hight and weight Vanek would have been a 5th rounder....maybe and Parise would have went #1.

 

[David Puddy]

So, Mr Conte,
Why did every scout/GM or virtually every scout/GM in the NHL have Vanek rated way higher all of a year ago.
BTW, wasnt guru Conte the same guy who authored the Sherrif, Ward, Damphousse,Ahonen,Hale, Foster 1st round picks over the last few years ?

Are you seriously questioning David Conte as a scout? You have got to be kidding me, right? Maybe that was you stating that Gretzky wasn't as good as he was.

The Devils often pick in the bottom third of the draft. The fact that the team is still able to develop quality players through its own system is a tribute to Mr. Conte.

 

[Sammy*]

Whats wrong with Hale and Ahonen......hale had an excellent rookie season and Lou is beyond pleased with his development. Ahonen is NHL ready and will continue to wait for Marty to get injured or leave NJ. Foster is tough to count out right now. He has the talent to be one of those late bloomers but he needs to stay healthy. When you are getting Elias, Vrana, Pihlman, Martin, DeMarchi, Suglobov in the 2nd round you can take risks like that.

Why else wouldn't they rank Vanek over Parise, he has 3 inches on him and 20 pounds at the time. If you switch hight and weight Vanek would have been a 5th rounder....maybe and Parise would have went #1.

Conte seems to be a pretty good scout but imo, hes not some sort of Guru that is that much better than a whole lot of guys out there. He had his blemishes as well as his succesess. I was only pointing out Hale & Anohen (being 1st round picks) who have yet to prove anything. They may or they may not succeed, yjr jury is still out. Insofar as Vrana, Pihlman, DeMarchi, Suglobov I think you are getting way ahead of yourself in putting them in the same category as Martin, never mind Elias. Frick, theres a reasonable chance they will never make the NHL , never mind make any kind of an impact.
Insofar as ytour comment of the size of Vanek (which is kinda ironic given that that was one of the reasons you think Parise is better than Roy) being the reason Vanek was picked so much higher than Parise (i suspect it goes somewhat beyond a mere size issue but who knows), perhaps, but last time I looked, size is an attribute, no different than speed , smarts. toughness. You cant just take that away & say "but for". That would be like me saying but for Parises apparent work ethic & smarts, he would have never been drafted. It really doesnt matter what the reasons are, it is what it is.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Conte seems to be a pretty good scout but imo, hes not some sort of Guru that is that much better than a whole lot of guys out there. He had his blemishes as well as his succesess. I was only pointing out Hale & Anohen (being 1st round picks) who have yet to prove anything. They may or they may not succeed, yjr jury is still out. Insofar as Vrana, Pihlman, DeMarchi, Suglobov I think you are getting way ahead of yourself in putting them in the same category as Martin, never mind Elias. Frick, theres a reasonable chance they will never make the NHL , never mind make any kind of an impact.
Insofar as ytour comment of the size of Vanek (which is kinda ironic given that that was one of the reasons you think Parise is better than Roy) being the reason Vanek was picked so much higher than Parise (i suspect it goes somewhat beyond a mere size issue but who knows), perhaps, but last time I looked, size is an attribute, no different than speed , smarts. toughness. You cant just take that away & say "but for". That would be like me saying but for Parises apparent work ethic & smarts, he would have never been drafted. It really doesnt matter what the reasons are, it is what it is.

He is a scouting Guru, every year at the draft everyone tries to pick his brain as to his thoughts on certain players. I wasn't compareing Vrana, Pihlman ect to Elias but saying how many great picks he seems to find in the 2nd round and the 3rd. Conte will go into the HHOF imo as one of the better scouts ever in the game...maybe the best by the time he is done.

Vanek is bigger but size is only an asset if you use it well. Vanek is not soft but he still doesn't use his size near as much as he should.

 

[MojoJojo]

What I've seen of Vanek doesnt impress me too much. He has great skill, but many of the moves he makes are risky and would simply not work against NHL defenders. Also, his skating is below average and I question his drive and intensity. His upside may be Danny Heatley, but his downside is Pavel Brendl.

I've seen Michalek play one game, and only noticed him a couple times on the ice.

Parise is a nice player. Kicked @ss at the World Juniors. I like him better than Vanek myself, but he has the size thing going against him in the NHL. I think he could be a Gomez type of player.

 

[flyer73]

Michalek, Vanek & Parise

I think everyone agrees that Michalek is the most NHL ready of the 3 since he played last year. As far as where they'll end up as point producers is a real crap shoot. I think that T.Vanek has the ability to become a high scoring winger in a G.Murray type of mold. Z.Parise reminds me of S.Gomez and that's probably the type of player Parise will turn into. Michalek has the most individual talent of the 3 and playing on a young team with the likes of Marleau and Sturm will help him develop.
I say Michalek leads in overall points when they are done. T.Vanek is the leading scorer and Z.Parise is the best all around player of the 3.

 

[sharkyz15]

I think everyone agrees that Michalek is the most NHL ready of the 3 since he played last year. As far as where they'll end up as point producers is a real crap shoot. I think that T.Vanek has the ability to become a high scoring winger in a G.Murray type of mold. Z.Parise reminds me of S.Gomez and that's probably the type of player Parise will turn into. Michalek has the most individual talent of the 3 and playing on a young team with the likes of Marleau and Sturm will help him develop.
I say Michalek leads in overall points when they are done. T.Vanek is the leading scorer and Z.Parise is the best all around player of the 3.

Saying Michalek will end up with the most points of the 3 is a risky bet.
The one thing he will have going for him is he will play with players like Patrick Marleau w/great finishing ability before he is 20 years old. Michalek will need to put up lots assists to stay in this race.

As far as talent goes, he is probably at the top of the list.

Plus he is gaining even more mustle this offseasone. He could be around 6'2 230 (pure mustle) withough loosing any speed. for 04-05

 

[Hockeycrazed07]

Michalek's shot is under-rated, Sharkyz. I'd put his shot right up there with Vanek's, in fact. The question is whether or not he'll use it. Based on what I've seen of him, both before and after the two knee injuries, he's learning more when and where to use it, which makes him even more dangerous. If his knee heals up well, I wouldn't have any trouble putting his point totals up with either Vanek or Parise when all things are said and done. Of course, Vanek is the only one with a lisence to roam in Buffalo, which might push his point totals up, assuming he's ready for the show when the time comes.

~Crazed.

 

[Moskau]

Vanek is the only one with a lisence to roam in Buffalo, which might push his point totals up, assuming he's ready for the show when the time comes.

~Crazed.

Exactly. Everyone keeps saying "He's going to be in Ruff's doghouse so quick, he'll be in the AHL within 20 games".

Well there's a few problems...

1) Although Ruff certainly does like defensive play, he's probably content with Vanek not giving a damn defensively if Vanek is potting in 40 goals. Even a guy like Afinogenov who at one point was not scoring, and was playing poor defense was getting ice time. There's a huge myth that Ruff is some totalitarian style coach, he isn't.

2) Sadly, I think Ruff has the least control over his players than just about any coach in the NHL. Not in the lockerroom sense per say (which has been rumored before though), but in the fact that Larry Quinn controls Darcy Regier who controls Lindy Ruff. Even without Quinn Regier is bad enough. He will do everything to make what he did look good, from giving players infinite chances at proving themselves, to waiting till trades are cant miss. Vanek was part of Quinn's first draft, and when he gets to the NHL I see him staying here for as long as it takes to make him into what they sold the fans.


With players like Paille, Roy, Stafford coming into the mix eventually, I think vanek will be given a huge leash to do whatever he wants and let them, and other solid Defensive players cover for him.

 

[dumpnchase]

Vanek looks to me like a guy that will boom or bust. Max (X-Sharkie) is wrong in that he's soft; if there's anybody I wouldn't call soft, it's Vanek. He fights his way to net, often dragging the opposition with him, and is marked mercilessly by the opposition, yet he continues to score. My problem with him is that he has no idea of where he should be on the defensive side of the ice (positional problems) and he doesn't seem to have any desire to get there anyways. Also, the red line will hamper his ability to get free in the NHL, along with bigger, faster players. He even wavers in his desire to play the offensive side of the rink, as he floats looking for open space. Of course, Brett Hull also floats offensively, and Gretzky wasn't known for his defensive play ore acumen in the offensive zone, either. If Vanek sticks on a top line, he could end up being a 80-90-point guy. If not, think Brendl.

Parise seems to me like a 2nd line C. Think a smaller version of Rod Brind'Amour. Very, very complete, though just a hair short of superstardom. He could ride coat tails (and with Elias in NJ, that's a distinct possibility) to a big year, but I'd figure on a safe 50-60 points every year if he can stay healthy. He seems like a very safe pick, and while I generally don't like those, when NJ makes a pick like that, there's no question that there was a reason behind it.

While I live in SJ, I'm not a Sharks fan. That said, I'm aboard the Michalek bandwagon, and was probably one of the first on these boards to jump. I figure any number of folks from the SJ board will vouch for me on that one. So I won't have a very unbiased opinion, and I'll keep it to myself.

~Crazed.

Pretty much exactly how I see the three guys as well.

Just because Parise fell in the draft because of his size too many people are assuming that he was the best player in the draft. His NHL avg. will be as a 50-60 point guy (maybe 70points), unless we go back to the run 'n gun hockey of the '80s.

 

[dumpnchase]

Saying Michalek will end up with the most points of the 3 is a risky bet.
The one thing he will have going for him is he will play with players like Patrick Marleau w/great finishing ability before he is 20 years old. Michalek will need to put up lots assists to stay in this race.

As far as talent goes, he is probably at the top of the list.

Plus he is gaining even more mustle this offseasone. He could be around 6'2 230 (pure mustle) withough loosing any speed. for 04-05

Michalek will also have fellow sniper Kaspar coming in shortly to form one of the best combinations in the NHL.

 

[Roughneck]

If I were to compare Vanek and Parise to anybody, I would have to say the '94 Canucks duo Trevor Linden and Pavel Bure.

Both terrific players, one the superstar, one the heart and soul leader who can also put up the points.

Maybe not the best example, but I like it.

 

[Paxon]

If I were to compare Vanek and Parise to anybody, I would have to say the '94 Canucks duo Trevor Linden and Pavel Bure.

Both terrific players, one the superstar, one the heart and soul leader who can also put up the points.

Maybe not the best example, but I like it.

Comparison makes sense, not to say the players will equal those, which isn't what you were saying, anyhow.

 

[Hockeycrazed07]

Michalek will also have fellow sniper Kaspar coming in shortly to form one of the best combinations in the NHL.

We've gone back and forth on Kaspar on the SJ board. Unless he grows a heart, don't hope for him to play with Michalek, let alone shortly.

~Crazed.

 

[X-SHARKIE]

We've gone back and forth on Kaspar on the SJ board. Unless he grows a heart, don't hope for him to play with Michalek, let alone shortly.

~Crazed.

I was talking with a guy from the Czech boards who said Kaspar has great charector, and I seem to see it on the ice when I saw him twice this year durring the WJC"s.

I don't think he's a headcase one bit. Not even close.