A team's worst ever trade..

[tjcurrie]

it's an interesting question: does getting rid of the "wrong" kind of player open up opportunities for the "right" kind of player to grow with his new responsibilities? tinordi didn't just break out; he became the captain and arguably set the tone for the team that hatcher would captain to a cup.

but on the other hand, i can certainly see room on the '91 north stars for both tinordi and murphy. for one: they played opposite sides on the PP. murphy wasn't so much of a big softie that he was rubbing off on younger guys, was he? i seriously doubt that.

whereas gartner, i don't think he was detrimental by any stretch but i can see why that deal was necessary. with gagner and bellows putting up basically equal goal totals, did you really need gartner? and dahlen gave you a grinding element that went a long way.

although one what-if is, if gartner never gets traded, then you maybe don't have to trade bellows for russ courtnall later on. and imagine modano and gartner flying together.

Woulda been something, for sure.

Modano and Gartner on line 1
Gagner and Bellows on line 2

The North Stars were eliminated by the Blues in the Norris Semis after Gartner came over. He did well in the 13 remaining regular season game (7-7-14, standard Gartner) but in the 5 playoff games vs St.Louis he was a -4 and failed to register a point. The team scored 15 in total.

Despite having a stat line of 34-36-70 after 67 games with the North Stars the next season, he was dealt to the Rangers.

I'm not sure if his poor playoff showing was something they noted as a major red flag or what. I was a North Stars fan then but pretty young and obviously didn't get the same media back then as there is now, so I'm not sure what went on if anything, or if they just wanted to go younger.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Gilmour to the Leafs for spare parts.

 

[crobro]

Dan Daoust and gaston Gingras to the leafs for futures.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I thought about the Gelinas/McLean trade but we actually received pretty good value back there - the problem was the later trades that shifted Burke and Sanderson for May and Snow. McLean was done in any case, so even at that, Gelinas for May and Snow isn't THAT bad.

On the Potvin deal, I think it's forgotten just how good Scatchard was for 4-5 years with the Islanders - a horse of a checking center who scored 27 goals one year. After the Quinn regime spent a decade looking for a Joel Otto, it burned like hell to give the closest we ever got to that away for nothing.

Really, all the Burke goaltending moves from 1998-2001 could be lumped together. Trading for Dan Cloutier (for Adrian Aucoin which was terrible) instead of the available Nikolai Khabibulin probably cost us a Cup in 2003.

Agreed that the Prust-Kassian trade has the 'feel' of one that's going to go horribly, terribly wrong, provided Kassian stays healthy. Williams was at least a good player - 26 at the time and good for ~20 goals every year. Prust is 31, washed-up, and had 4 goals last year. Awful.

oh man, the aucoin trade was indeed horrendous. i remember being so psyched for the future when we had ohlund, jovo, mccabe, and aucoin as our d corps going forward. obviously, i'm super happy about what mccabe turned into, but aucoin sure would have looked nice on the pp with markus and the todd, wouldn't he?

and you're right: i have zero recollection of scatchard scoring 27 goals. i rembered him as a poor man's tom fitzgerald/rich man's chad kilger. but wow. so that isles team that cage fought the leafs did so with peca, aucoin, and scatchard playing key roles? nice job quinn/burke. at least we briefly had chubie.

as for the gelinas deal, burke wasn't nearly as bad as mclean by that point, but he was still the same kind of obsolete dinosaur stand up. as i recall, he stunk up the joint and it wasn't until he went to phoenix and benoit allaire completely rebuilt his technique from scratch that he was worth a crap.

and re: '03 and the khabi what-if, we'll have to agree to disagree there. if that team ever got to the finals, what do you think markus and the todd look like playing for all the marbles against peak brodeur, peak niedermayer, scotty stevens, john madden playing out of his mind, etc.? we all saw what wes walz and willie mitchell did to them.

 

[MS]

oh man, the aucoin trade was indeed horrendous. i remember being so psyched for the future when we had ohlund, jovo, mccabe, and aucoin as our d corps going forward. obviously, i'm super happy about what mccabe turned into, but aucoin sure would have looked nice on the pp with markus and the todd, wouldn't he?

and you're right: i have zero recollection of scatchard scoring 27 goals. i rembered him as a poor man's tom fitzgerald/rich man's chad kilger. but wow. so that isles team that cage fought the leafs did so with peca, aucoin, and scatchard playing key roles? nice job quinn/burke. at least we briefly had chubie.

as for the gelinas deal, burke wasn't nearly as bad as mclean by that point, but he was still the same kind of obsolete dinosaur stand up. as i recall, he stunk up the joint and it wasn't until he went to phoenix and benoit allaire completely rebuilt his technique from scratch that he was worth a crap.

and re: '03 and the khabi what-if, we'll have to agree to disagree there. if that team ever got to the finals, what do you think markus and the todd look like playing for all the marbles against peak brodeur, peak niedermayer, scotty stevens, john madden playing out of his mind, etc.? we all saw what wes walz and willie mitchell did to them.

Burke's struggles were over-rated.

In 1996-97 (the year before the trade to Vancouver), he posted a .914 save % in 51 games, good for 8th of 28 starters to play more than 40 games.

In 1998-99 (the year after the trade to Vancouver), he went .907 in 61 games, good for 15th of 25 goalies to play 40+ games ... which was actually pretty damn good playing for a lousy Florida team. Then was traded to Phoenix the next year and turned out 3 near-Vezina seasons.

He was still pretty clearly a quality NHL starter and a huge upgrade on McLean ... he just had a nightmare season complete with two trades and a failing marriage.

__________

I probably should have put that Aucoin-Cloutier trade on my top-5 list. Just awful. Crawford didn't like Aucoin because he 'wasn't physical enough' which was total garbage.

Scatchard was like a better version of Paul Gaustad in his prime - the biggest, meanest, faceoff-dominating #3 center in the NHL with 20-goal talent to boot.

And yeah, you're probably right and we wouldn't have beat New Jersey in 2003. But I'd have liked to have been with a chance with a decent goalie.

 

[Hasbro]

oh man, the aucoin trade was indeed horrendous. i remember being so psyched for the future when we had ohlund, jovo, mccabe, and aucoin as our d corps going forward. obviously, i'm super happy about what mccabe turned into, but aucoin sure would have looked nice on the pp with markus and the todd, wouldn't he?

and you're right: i have zero recollection of scatchard scoring 27 goals. i rembered him as a poor man's tom fitzgerald/rich man's chad kilger. but wow. so that isles team that cage fought the leafs did so with peca, aucoin, and scatchard playing key roles? nice job quinn/burke. at least we briefly had chubie.

as for the gelinas deal, burke wasn't nearly as bad as mclean by that point, but he was still the same kind of obsolete dinosaur stand up. as i recall, he stunk up the joint and it wasn't until he went to phoenix and benoit allaire completely rebuilt his technique from scratch that he was worth a crap.

and re: '03 and the khabi what-if, we'll have to agree to disagree there. if that team ever got to the finals, what do you think markus and the todd look like playing for all the marbles against peak brodeur, peak niedermayer, scotty stevens, john madden playing out of his mind, etc.? we all saw what wes walz and willie mitchell did to them.

IIRC Crawford had a burr up his ass about Aucoin and was intent ongetting him off the Canucks.

The other OTHER Luongo trade was also pretty bad:

Wendell Clarke, Mathieu Schneider and D.J. Smith for Darby Hendrickson, Sean Haggerty, Kenny Jonsson and Toronto's 1st round choice (Roberto Luongo) in 1997 Entry Draft

 

[MS]

IIRC Crawford had a burr up his ass about Aucoin and was intent ongetting him off the Canucks.

The other OTHER Luongo trade was also pretty bad:

Wendell Clarke, Mathieu Schneider and D.J. Smith for Darby Hendrickson, Sean Haggerty, Kenny Jonsson and Toronto's 1st round choice (Roberto Luongo) in 1997 Entry Draft

For all the mockery Milbury gets for trading Luongo for a horrible return, everyone totally forgets how he outright stole the pick used to take Luongo from Toronto in the first place.

 

[Hasbro]

For all the mockery Milbury gets for trading Luongo for a horrible return, everyone totally forgets how he outright stole the pick used to take Luongo from Toronto in the first place.

He was et up with guilt over his ill gotten gains.

The year after, when it was obvious it was a disaster is when Fletcher offered his infamous "Draft Shmaft" remark after not selling at the deadline.

 

[MS]

He was et up with guilt over his ill gotten gains.

The year after, when it was obvious it was a disaster is when Fletcher offered his infamous "Draft Shmaft" remark after not selling at the deadline.

Milbury really only made two really poor moves - the 2000 draft day disaster and the Yashin trade. It's just those two moves were arguably the worst two moves made by any GM in the last 20 years.

He actually made a pile of excellent trades, especially the 4 deals to put together the Hamrlik/Jonsson/Niinimaa/Aucoin defensive core the Isles had from 2000-2004. Probably the deepest top-4 anyone has seen in the last two decades, and by far the best anyone has put together through trade, and the only really decent player he gave up to do so was Eric Brewer.

 

[Voight]

Milbury really only made two really poor moves - the 2000 draft day disaster and the Yashin trade. It's just those two moves were arguably the worst two moves made by any GM in the last 20 years.

He actually made a pile of excellent trades, especially the 4 deals to put together the Hamrlik/Jonsson/Niinimaa/Aucoin defensive core the Isles had from 2000-2004. Probably the deepest top-4 anyone has seen in the last two decades, and by far the best anyone has put together through trade, and the only really decent player he gave up to do so was Eric Brewer.

I think your going a bit too far here.

 

[ted2019]

Flyers:
Patrick Sharp
for
Matt Ellison

 

[Hobnobs]

Flyers:
Patrick Sharp
for
Matt Ellison

Isnt trading Samuelsson, Tocchet, Wregget and a draft pick (3rd round?) for Recchi, Benning and a squandered 1st rnd pick worse?

Or trading a 1st+3rd+prospect for Fat Balloon? The first was used on Danny Briere btw..

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Isnt trading Samuelsson, Tocchet, Wregget and a draft pick (3rd round?) for Recchi, Benning and a squandered 1st rnd pick worse?

Or trading a 1st+3rd+prospect for Fat Balloon? The first was used on Danny Briere btw..

why would the tocchet/recchi trade be worse than giving away a borderline star-level player in patrick sharp away for nothing?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Milbury really only made two really poor moves - the 2000 draft day disaster and the Yashin trade. It's just those two moves were arguably the worst two moves made by any GM in the last 20 years.

He actually made a pile of excellent trades, especially the 4 deals to put together the Hamrlik/Jonsson/Niinimaa/Aucoin defensive core the Isles had from 2000-2004. Probably the deepest top-4 anyone has seen in the last two decades, and by far the best anyone has put together through trade, and the only really decent player he gave up to do so was Eric Brewer.

hatcher, matvichuk, zubov, sydor is my go-to deepest top four of the last 20. but i'm sure there are others.

you're right though: milbury did have some steals of his own-- the trade to get jonsson and luongo in the first place, as mentioned above, stealing aucoin, and the peca trade was a masterstroke. but he had a third horrendous trade: the one that ended up netting the canucks luongo and a sedin, plus this handsome gentleman:

 

[BobRouse]

The Forsberg deal is worse than all of those combined.

Bad deals, yes, but Ridley and Ciccarelli were in their 30s at the time. Ridley didn't have another full healthy season after being traded.

Trading a guy you've just drafted at #11 overall for a guy universally known around the league to be washed-up is about as bad as it gets, and will hurt that franchise for a decade.

Wait...you can see into the future??

Forsberg has played all of 1 NHL season. By midpoint he was the runaway ROY candidate and by seasons end wasn't even a finalist! Hold the horses on Filip the Great.

RE: Ciccarelli - The 91-92 Capitals were the best team in the league (3rd in points during the RS) according to Scotty Bowman the Pens coach at the time. They had the Pens on the ropes and FORCED Bowman to walk into the Pens locker room and say "hey we can't beat this team playing like we are"..The Penguins with a guys like Lemieux, Jagr, Recchi, Stevens etc had to play a TRAP to beat the Caps.

Dino was 31. But he was also a premier playoff performer for the Caps and finished 3rd on the team in scoring and tied for 1st in goals.

That was not a rebuilding team. They were primed for another run especially with a mix of good vets (like Dale Hunter) and promising young players (Bondra and Khristich). They traded him b/c a cheap owner didn't want to pay him and got a guy who completely didn't fit their system and played all of 10 games for them.


Not sure how you can use hindsight to say that Ridley's future injuries makes the trade for Pearson not too bad at the time yet at the same time assume Forsberg will be healthy and uber productive going forward.

There is not nearly enough of a body of work to even evaluate the Forsberg trade in the same league as those two I mentioned.

If you REALLY want to use predictive powers then the worst trade the Caps ever made was for Dale Hunter (who I LOVED). They got Hunter and Malarchuk for Haworth, Duchesne and a 1st rounder.

Want to guess who that 1st rounder turned out to be?

Point is you have to evaluate the trade at the time it was made. Forsberg had yet to play an NHL game or even an AHL game. Yes he was a good prospect. Yes it was a bad trade even at the time. But are you certain he won't flame out? Are you 100% sure he won't sustain an injury that will diminish him going forward?

But its nowhere near losing players like Ridley and Dino who still had plenty of gas left in the tank on a non-rebuilding team with cup aspirations (which the Caps were in both cases)

EDIT: Ridley was traded in during the lockout. Why? Schoenfeld took over the Caps mid year that year and HATED Ridley despite his 26+44 and excellent 2 way play and abiltiy to play in all situations. He was quite durable missing 8 games in 4 seasons at the time of trade.

He played all 48 games for the Leafs in the strike shortened year. Dealt with back injuries the next year then bounced back to play 75 games (20+32) for Vancouver the year after.

 

[Hobnobs]

why would the tocchet/recchi trade be worse than giving away a borderline star-level player in patrick sharp away for nothing?

If it was Tocchet for Reechi sure but they gave away fringe starter and a top-pker as well. But if you dont think that overpayment then ho about giving away McCrimmon for two draft picks or the instant stinker Hartnell for Umberger...

 

[BobRouse]

If it was Tocchet for Reechi sure but they gave away fringe starter and a top-pker as well. But if you dont think that overpayment then ho about giving away McCrimmon for two draft picks or the instant stinker Hartnell for Umberger...

I don't know man...Recchi was an awesome player and was like 23 and had back to back 100pt seasons with Philly. Tocchet was pretty darn good too but also 4 years older and was having a subpar year. I kinda remember a few Penguins players being pretty upset about the trade.

Recchi>>>Tocchet at the time (IMO)

I thought it was a pretty fair trade at the time and looking back I still think it was fair.

Also Recchi got Philly a pretty good haul when they parlayed him into (I think at least) Leclair and Desjardins

 

[Hobnobs]

I don't know man...Recchi was an awesome player and was like 23 and had back to back 100pt seasons with Philly. Tocchet was pretty darn good too but also 4 years older and was having a subpar year. I kinda remember a few Penguins players being pretty upset about the trade.

Recchi>>>Tocchet at the time (IMO)

I thought it was a pretty fair trade at the time and looking back I still think it was fair.

Also Recchi got Philly a pretty good haul when they parlayed him into (I think at least) Leclair and Desjardins

Oh I agree that Recchi was the better offfensive player. It did pan out since they got Desjardins and LeClair out of it but I think it was overpayment plus it gave their bitter rivals a tough gritty leader in Tocchet, a top PKer in Samuelsson and one of the top backups in the league while Flyers kept being outside the playoffs.

 

[BobRouse]

Oh I agree that Recchi was the better offfensive player. It did pan out since they got Desjardins and LeClair out of it but I think it was overpayment plus it gave their bitter rivals a tough gritty leader in Tocchet, a top PKer in Samuelsson and one of the top backups in the league while Flyers kept being outside the playoffs.

Don't disagree but Philly was in a bit of a rebuild mode anyhow so even without the trade I think they miss the playoffs.

I think the trade was really good for both teams but it was strange to see two bitter rivals who had not long ago squared off in the playoffs pull off such a big trade with marquee players who were integral to the identity of their teams.

But the McCrimmon trade was brutal. Why they traded that guy I'll never understand.

 

[Hivemind]

Forsberg, Cicarelli, Dino, Ridley, etc. aren't anywhere near the worst trade in Capitals history. All of those are moot discussions. There are two correct answers to the worst trade in Capitals history, but involving the same player.

Thank goodness that none of the prospects they traded to the Penguins ever amounted to anything, or else that era would sting even more.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

with his 255 points in 200 games in philly the first time around, recchi singlehandedly outscored the 230 combined points tocchet, samuelsson, wregget, and roche (the 3rd round pick) put up in a penguins uniform.

okay, maybe not the fairest comparison given the intangibles tocchet and samuelsson brought and the fact that wregget was a goalie, but as bob rouse notes above, it made sense for the flyers.

the mccrimmon trade, that one made no sense. especially as they'd go on to trade the 1st they got from calgary, plus their own 1st, to overpay the leafs for wregget a year and a half later. they sat on the key future asset from the mccrimmon trade for 21 months before turning it back into a present asset, in effect throwing away 21 months of value.

 

[Hobnobs]

with his 255 points in 200 games in philly the first time around, recchi singlehandedly outscored the 230 combined points tocchet, samuelsson, wregget, and roche (the 3rd round pick) put up in a penguins uniform.

okay, maybe not the fairest comparison given the intangibles tocchet and samuelsson brought and the fact that wregget was a goalie, but as bob rouse notes above, it made sense for the flyers.

the mccrimmon trade, that one made no sense. especially as they'd go on to trade the 1st they got from calgary, plus their own 1st, to overpay the leafs for wregget a year and a half later. they sat on the key future asset from the mccrimmon trade for 21 months before turning it back into a present asset, in effect throwing away 21 months of value.

tbh McCrimmon seemed like the most undervalued player in history. Except for the Bruins nobody traded him for anything but draft picks...

Total returns for McCrimmon:
Pete Peeters
1993 6th round pick (#152-Tim Spitzig)
1990 2nd round pick (#24-David Harlock)
1988 3rd round pick (#63-Dominic Roussel)
1989 1st round pick (#21-Steve Bancroft)

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

as i recall, the mccrimmon trade was a contract issue both times (PHI and CAL). hard for a defensive guy to get paid in those days.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Dan Daoust and gaston Gingras to the leafs for futures.

wouldn't even make top 100 for the Canadians let alone the nhl

both were pure depth players

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

from craig patrick's position, here was a skill guy kicking butt on a line where his wingers were doing the heavy lifting. what patrick knew and johnston didn't is that the real stars were recchi and kevin stevens. not to say cullen was a passenger, but he wasn't a franchise-level guy who could carry your offence. similar to craig janney. when you have cam neely or brendan shanahan, craig janney is a great number one center. when you only have owen nolan and jeff friesen (good players, but not hall of famers at their peaks by any stretch), you're in bad shape.

Whole post is fantastic reasoning, but this is a whip smart point. Recchi and Stevens weren't stars going into the 90-91 season. Just young players coming off pretty good seasons.

I'm sure it was easy to fall into the trap of thinking Cullen was a guy who could get the most of his wings, when in reality, he just happened to be a pretty good player fortunate enough to be on a line with a future first team all-star and an eventual Hall of Famer having simultaneous breakout seasons. Stevens and Recchi were both late rounders--nobody thought they'd become what they did, even in Pittsburgh.

Two years later, both wings would have 50 goal, 120 point seasons playing for two different hockey clubs.

Cullen still posted 70 something that year, which underscores that he was definitely not some scub, but he wasn't Recchi or Stevens, either.

Kind of reminds me of how Benn was thought to be something of a product of Eriksson early in his career.

was just thinking about this: i think history will show that tyler johnson is kind of a cullen, while palat and kuch are the real deal.

timestamp: august, 2015