News Article: A pretty fair take I think.....

[Brunomics]

Fair point. Although he scored more than 20 only once his career and didn't do it in his rookie year. 20 goals by itself may not make someone a first liner but look at the players who consistently score 20+ goals. Most of them would be considered top liners.

Also, just to be clear, I personally don't consider all of those guys I mentioned "busts." Just pointing out that fans tend to anoint every promising rookie as the savior and when they don't meet those sky high expectations they are considered busts.

There was only one s cumbag that the fans here anointed savior.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

There was only one s cumbag that the fans here anointed savior.

OK, savior is not accurate but every single one of the guys I mentioned was supposed to be much better (according to most NYI fans) than what he ultimately became.

 

[Seph]

Fair point. Although he scored more than 20 only once his career and didn't do it in his rookie year. 20 goals by itself may not make someone a first liner but look at the players who consistently score 20+ goals. Most of them would be considered top liners.

Also, just to be clear, I personally don't consider all of those guys I mentioned "busts." Just pointing out that fans tend to anoint every promising rookie as the savior and when they don't meet those sky high expectations they are considered busts.

Since entering the league, Nelson has averaged 19.8 goals per season. Calling 20 goals a typical Nelson season is hardly a stretch. And the guys who are considered first liners are doing more than just posting 20 goals -- yes, the 20 goals is part of it, but it's hardly what makes them first liners. Accusing someone of expecting a player to be a bonafide 1st liner or that they're expexting a savior when all they said they expect is 20 goals is a straw man argument.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Since entering the league, Nelson has averaged 19.8 goals per season. Calling 20 goals a typical Nelson season is hardly a stretch. And the guys who are considered first liners are doing more than just posting 20 goals -- yes, the 20 goals is part of it, but it's hardly what makes them first liners. Accusing someone of expecting a player to be a bonafide 1st liner or that they're expexting a savior when all they said they expect is 20 goals is a straw man argument.

Most 20+ (the "+" is significant here) goal scorers are first liners. That is a fact. Saying that Bellows will "absolutely" score 20+ goals in his rookie season (when there's a question mark whether or not he even makes the team) is a huge expectation. Do you disagree?

 

[Seph]

Most 20+ (the "+" is significant here) goal scorers are first liners. That is a fact. Saying that Bellows will "absolutely" score 20+ goals in his rookie season (when there's a question mark whether or not he even makes the team) is a huge expectation. Do you disagree?

Most people mean "at least 20 "when they write that in this context, but if you want to argue semantics that it can only mean over 20, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that Brock Nelson is just one goal per season away from being a first liner or that Schmaltz, Brassard, Ferland, Meier, Nash, Guentzl, Hertl, Dzingel, etc were legit first liners last season.

But I'll rephrase since apparently you can't get past the semantics, the guys that score 21 goals and are considered first liners are doing more than just scoring 21 goals to be considered legit first liners, and none of that was stated as an expectation of Bellows.

 

[Cygnusx1018]

The main problem among all else was systems play. I'm holding out my prediction on what they'll do because I do feel they can cut down their goals against by at least 50 with that alone.

The team will score, we all know that. My expectation is about 30 less goals. But there are ways to work around it. Ideally this is what I want to see:

Lee-Barzal-Eberle
Beau-Kovar-Bailey
Ladd-Nelson-Ho-Sang
Martin-Cizikas-Komarov
Filpulla/Clutterbuck as the extra forwards because you know injuries will happen.

3 lines that can score. There is actual depth.

It will probably be

Beau - Barzal - Eberle
Lee - Nelson - Bailey
Ladd/Bellows - Kovar - Ho-Sang/Komarov
Martin - Cizikas - Clutterbuck
EX: Filppula, Kuhnhackl, other of Ladd/Bellows

Leddy - Boychuk
Hickey - Pulock
Toews - Pelech/Mayfield/Aho
EX: Sbisa, Seidenberg, losers of 3RD

Lehner
Greiss
Gibson

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Most people mean "at least 20 "when they write that in this context, but if you want to argue semantics that it can only mean over 20, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that Brock Nelson is just one goal per season away from being a first liner or that Schmaltz, Brassard, Ferland, Meier, Nash, Guentzl, Hertl, Dzingel, etc were legit first liners last season.

But I'll rephrase since apparently you can't get past the semantics, the guys that score 21 goals and are considered first liners are doing more than just scoring 21 goals to be considered legit first liners, and none of that was stated as an expectation of Bellows.

I said "most" 20+ goal scorers are first liners. No need to cherry pick those that aren't. I understand there are many other factors. Clark Gillies was a first liner who probably wouldn't score 20 in today's NHL. PA Parenteau averaged right around 20 but I wouldn't consider him a "legit first liner." You're right, some of this is semantics. "First liner," "top liner," "top 6," "mid 6,"whatever. The fact is that a rookie scoring 20+ goals today is damn impressive. It's pretty rare and when one does it, chances are they are a very special player. Declaring that Bellows will "absolutely" do it this season is quite the statement. Again, do you disagree?

 

[Doshell Propivo]

It will probably be

Beau - Barzal - Eberle
Lee - Nelson - Bailey
Ladd/Bellows - Kovar - Ho-Sang/Komarov
Martin - Cizikas - Clutterbuck
EX: Filppula, Kuhnhackl, other of Ladd/Bellows

Leddy - Boychuk
Hickey - Pulock
Toews - Pelech/Mayfield/Aho
EX: Sbisa, Seidenberg, losers of 3RD

Lehner
Greiss
Gibson

That defense... Oy vey...

 

[Seph]

I said "most" 20+ goal scorers are first liners. No need to cherry pick those that aren't. I understand there are many other factors. Clark Gillies was a first liner who probably wouldn't score 20 in today's NHL. PA Parenteau averaged right around 20 but I wouldn't consider him a "legit first liner." You're right, some of this is semantics. "First liner," "top liner," "top 6," "mid 6,"whatever. The fact is that a rookie scoring 20+ goals today is damn impressive. It's pretty rare and when one does it, chances are they are a very special player. Declaring that Bellows will "absolutely" do it this season is quite the statement. Again, do you disagree?

I'm not cherry picking; I'm selecting guys that actually fit the description of players who score a little over 20 goals, and don't bring a bunch of other things to the ice that make them first liners in conjunction with the goal scoring. You know, guys like what we are talking about. Saying that Brunomics is expecting anything more than guys like that is intellectually dishonest.

Also, 4 rookies outside the top 5 in Calder voting scored 20 goals last year. It's not that crazy.

Btw, Brunomics said Bellows should absolutely make the team, not that he'd absolutely score 20 goals.

 

[13th Floor]

That defense... Oy vey...

Yea, that defense is atrocious. It's gonna be a loooooooong season.

When was the last time Trotz didn't make the playoffs? What is he even gonna do with himself in April.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

I'm not cherry picking; I'm selecting guys that actually fit the description of players who score a little over 20 goals, and don't bring a bunch of other things to the ice that make them first liners in conjunction with the goal scoring. You know, guys like what we are talking about. Saying that Brunomics is expecting anything more than guys like that is intellectually dishonest.

Also, 4 rookies outside the top 5 in Calder voting scored 20 goals last year. It's not that crazy.

Btw, Brunomics said Bellows should absolutely make the team, not that he'd absolutely score 20 goals.

His exact quote: "Bellows absolutely should make the team and score 20+."

 

[thedonger]

Honestly we downgraded on offense, defense, and goaltending this off-season. Only coaching was upgraded. While Trotz is a vast improvement...you can have the best coach in the world but if they have no talent in front of them then it's pointless. As much as Tavares did us dirty...if this was the roster/vision Lou presented him in June I would have left too.

To be fair to Lou, he was in a no win situation. When you don't have a guarantee of your 1C re-signing, your hands are cuffed as to what to do going forward. If he does not re-sign, and you trade your futures to win now in trying to appease him to stay, not only do you screw the team for the present but for how many years going forward?
On the flip side, doing nothing would (and maybe did) lead him to want to leave even more.
I mean what was Lou supposed to do in the month plus he took over after GS was canned? Mortgage the future in the hopes he would stay? It already looked like tray-Toor was set to leave regardless so that would have screwed us royally.
If he fails to start putting pieces together over the next 2 seasons, then I'll be first in line to give him the boot, but until then I'm just in wait and see mode.

 

[PK Cronin]

Not sure why Strome keeps coming up here. He became Eberle who is clearly a top6, arguably top3 winger in this league.

He became Eberle, just too late. Strome was being penciled in to take over the #2 center job and be a great center. There was even an interview where Nielsen was asked about and he talked about how exciting that was for the franchise. Now he's a mediocre #3 center on another team. We've seen it time and time again with these guys. They have a good season and then they nose dive hard. Ho-Sang had a great first stint in the NHL, what has he done lately? I still have hopes for him, but it's another prospect that may never reach his potential.

We spend a lot of time saying, "I won't trade [x] for established player [y]" because of potential and cost moving forward. It hasn't worked out for the team so far. Every next big player has been a bust, except for Barzal. Pulock is finally, after years of being teased, rounding out into a quality defensemen and we still don't even know what he is.

 

[Seph]

His exact quote: "Bellows absolutely should make the team and score 20+."

Right. The absolutely applies to making the team. He also says he will score 20+ goals, but that's separated from the absolutely by the conjunction. It's really a shame we have to go down this dumb semantic road instead of just being able to agree that there's a lot more to being a first liner than scoring 21 goals, but since you insist on continuing it, here we are.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Right. The absolutely applies to making the team. He also says he will score 20+ goals, but that's separated from the absolutely by the conjunction. It's really a shame we have to go down this dumb semantic road instead of just being able to agree that there's a lot more to being a first liner than scoring 21 goals, but since you insist on continuing it, here we are.

Sorry but that is simply not true. In that sentence, the conjunction and links absolutely should to score 20+ goals. How can it be anything else? "Score 20+" by itself is not a sentence. What did he mean by him scoring 20+ if not "absolutely should?" You say he meant "will." Even though that modal verb does not appear anywhere in the sentence, is there really a difference? Is saying "He absolutely should score 20+." really that different than saying "He will score 20+?" In either case, he feels strongly that Bellows will be a 20+ scorer this year. Semantics indeed. And not sure why you're arguing these silly semantics on his behalf. Pretty sure he can speak for himself.

Also not sure why you're hung up on the first liner thing. That's an ancillary point in the conversation. The crux was that we tend to have extremely high expectations for all of our #1 picks and more often than not they fail to meet them.

 

[Chardo]

This season will be a case study on the value of professional coaching. There's more talent on this team than people give credit. Can an elite coach implement a sound defensive structure? Can elite goaltending coaching resurrect guys that have had success before? The staff in place is world class. This season will show whether that truly matters.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Devon Toews will be a top 4 dman by midseason(he looks great) and Bellows absolutely should make the team and score 20+.

I think they are fair expectations for the talent they are displaying. Last year the consensus was Barzal was going to put up 50-60 points. Was that a ridiculous expectation? He had zero NHL games worth of experience.

For every Barzal there's a Strome, Nilsson, Tambellini, O'Marra, Donovan, Bergenheim, Reinhart, etc. This doesn't mean that to expect Bellows to hit 20 goals AND Toews to become a top 4 defenseman when neither one has ever played in the NHL before is lofty, especially being a top 4 dman.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Sorry but that is simply not true. In that sentence, the conjunction and links absolutely should to score 20+ goals. How can it be anything else? "Score 20+" by itself is not a sentence. What did he mean by him scoring 20+ if not "absolutely should?" You say he meant "will." Even though that modal verb does not appear anywhere in the sentence, is there really a difference? Is saying "He absolutely should score 20+." really that different than saying "He will score 20+?" In either case, he feels strongly that Bellows will be a 20+ scorer this year. Semantics indeed. And not sure why you're arguing these silly semantics on his behalf. Pretty sure he can speak for himself.

Also not sure why you're hung up on the first liner thing. That's an ancillary point in the conversation. The crux was that we tend to have extremely high expectations for all of our #1 picks and more often than not they fail to meet them.

I don't always (or even usually) agree with Doshell, but they're 100% correct with this post.

 

[13th Floor]

This season will be a case study on the value of professional coaching. There's more talent on this team than people give credit. Can an elite coach implement a sound defensive structure? Can elite goaltending coaching resurrect guys that have had success before? The staff in place is world class. This season will show whether that truly matters.

It matters for sure, but it can't turn a toad into a prince. I think there's talent on the team, but the blue line is severely lacking and the goalie tandem is average on their best days. It might be dead last on paper.

If this team makes the playoffs this year, I will get a tattoo of Lou. I'll get Lou's face tattooed on top of my face.

This is all about setting up for a proper rebuild and being good in about 2-3 years.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

It matters for sure, but it can't turn a toad into a prince. I think there's talent on the team, but the blue line is severely lacking and the goalie tandem is average on their best days. It might be dead last on paper.

If this team makes the playoffs this year, I will get a tattoo of Lou. I'll get Lou's face tattooed on top of my face.

This is all about setting up for a proper rebuild and being good in about 2-3 years.

Lol! I will get a tramp stamp of Trotz’s face.

 

[Chardo]

It matters for sure, but it can't turn a toad into a prince. I think there's talent on the team, but the blue line is severely lacking and the goalie tandem is average on their best days. It might be dead last on paper.

If this team makes the playoffs this year, I will get a tattoo of Lou. I'll get Lou's face tattooed on top of my face.

This is all about setting up for a proper rebuild and being good in about 2-3 years.

See that's the thing. We're gonna find out of the blue line really is severely lacking or has just been playing without any structure.

 

[Uncle Duke]

This season will be a case study on the value of professional coaching. There's more talent on this team than people give credit. Can an elite coach implement a sound defensive structure? Can elite goaltending coaching resurrect guys that have had success before? The staff in place is world class. This season will show whether that truly matters.

"There's more talent on this team than people give credit". I read that a lot in these posts. Every team in the NHL has talent but it would be a stretch to suggest that the Isles have anything more than average to slightly below average talent relatively speaking and across the board. We can all feel good about the direction we're headed but even BT is going to have a hard time molding it in to consistent winner in the short run. We shouldn't be expecting miracles.

 

[13th Floor]

See that's the thing. We're gonna find out of the blue line really is severely lacking or has just been playing without any structure.

Por que no los dos?

 

[Chardo]

Por que no los dos?

Porque tal vez es solo uno o el otro

 

[Quicklime]

I don’t want to echo myself, but I did find some stats which suggest we’re in a good spot previously in this thread.

I think the issue is deployment rather than personnel. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯