A More Realistic Look At The HOF...

Discussion in 'National Hockey League Talk' started by GlitchMarner, Oct 9, 2018.

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  1. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    I've provided the best adjusted point totals (in seasons of at least 75 games played) as well as top 50 scoring placements and VsX 7 and VsX 10 scores of certain Hall of Famers. It seems to me people on here generally overrate the threshold. If actual inductees are used as a precedent, there are multiple legitimate candidates among active players. I would say anyone with a VsX 7 score higher than McDonald's deserves a look and anyone with a VsX 7 scorer higher than Modano's and/or Sundin's is a good candidate...

    Learn more about VsX 7 and VsX 10 here: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/reference-vsx-comprehensive-summary-1927-to-2017.2215905/

    All but six of the NHL's top 63 scorers all-time who are retired and eligible are in the HOF:

    NHL Leaders

    RankPlayerYearsPTS
    1.Wayne Gretzky*1979-992857
    2.Jaromir Jagr1990-181921
    3.Mark Messier*1979-041887
    4.Gordie Howe*1946-801850
    5.Ron Francis*1981-041798
    6.Marcel Dionne*1971-891771
    7.Steve Yzerman*1983-061755
    8.Mario Lemieux*1984-061723
    9.Joe Sakic*1988-091641
    10.Phil Esposito*1963-811590
    11.Ray Bourque*1979-011579
    12.Mark Recchi*1988-111533
    13.Paul Coffey*1980-011531
    14.Stan Mikita*1958-801467
    15.Teemu Selanne*1992-141457
    16.Joe Thornton1997-191428
    17.Bryan Trottier*1975-941425
    18.Adam Oates*1985-041420
    19.Doug Gilmour*1983-031414
    20.Dale Hawerchuk*1981-971409
    21.Jari Kurri*1980-981398
    22.Luc Robitaille*1986-061394
    23.Brett Hull*1986-061391
    24.Mike Modano*1989-111374
    25.John Bucyk*1955-781369
    26.Brendan Shanahan*1987-091354
    27.Guy Lafleur*1971-911353
    28.Mats Sundin*1990-091349
    29.Denis Savard*1980-971338
    Dave Andreychuk*1982-061338
    31.Mike Gartner*1979-981335
    32.Pierre Turgeon1987-071327
    33.Gilbert Perreault*1970-871326
    34.Jarome Iginla1996-171300
    35.Alex Delvecchio*1950-741281
    36.Al MacInnis*1981-041274
    37.Jean Ratelle*1960-811267
    38.Peter Stastny*1980-951239
    39.Phil Housley*1982-031232
    40.Norm Ullman*1955-751229
    41.Jean Beliveau*1950-711219
    42.Larry Murphy*1980-011217
    43.Jeremy Roenick1988-091216
    44.Bobby Clarke*1969-841210
    45.Bernie Nicholls1981-991209
    46.Vincent Damphousse1986-041205
    47.Dino Ciccarelli*1980-991200
    48.Rod Brind'Amour1989-101184
    49.Sergei Fedorov*1990-091179
    50.Bobby Hull*1957-801170
    51.Daniel Alfredsson1995-141157
    52.Michel Goulet*1979-941153
    53.Nicklas Lidstrom*1991-121142
    54.Marian Hossa1997-171134
    55.Patrick Marleau1997-191133
    56.Bernie Federko*1976-901130
    57.Joe Nieuwendyk*1986-071126
    Mike Bossy*1977-871126
    59.Alex Ovechkin2005-191125
    60.Darryl Sittler*1970-851121
    61.Sidney Crosby2005-191118
    62.Frank Mahovlich*1956-741103
    63.Glenn Anderson*1980-961099

    64.Theoren Fleury1988-031088
    65.Henrik Sedin2000-181070
    66.Dave Taylor1977-941069
    67.Keith Tkachuk1991-101065
    68.Ray Whitney1991-141064
    69.Joe Mullen*1981-971063
    70.Pat Verbeek1982-021062
    71.Denis Potvin*1973-881052
    72.Henri Richard*1955-751046
    73.Daniel Sedin2000-181041
    74.Bobby Smith1978-931036
    75.Martin St. Louis*1998-151033
    Doug Weight1991-111033
    77.Alexander Mogilny1989-061032
    78.Alex Kovalev1992-131029
    79.Brian Leetch*1987-061028
    80.Patrik Elias1995-161025
    81.Brian Bellows1982-991022
    82.Rod Gilbert*1960-781021
    83.Dale Hunter1980-991020
    84.Pat LaFontaine*1983-981013
    85.Steve Larmer1980-951012
    86.Lanny McDonald*1973-891006
    87.Brian Propp1979-941004
    88.Paul Kariya*1994-10989
    89.Rick Middleton1974-88988
    90.Dave Keon*1960-82986
    91.Andy Bathgate*1952-71973
    92.Shane Doan1995-17972
    93.Maurice Richard*1942-60966
    94.Henrik Zetterberg2002-18960
    95.Kirk Muller1984-03959
    96.Larry Robinson*1972-92958
    97.Rick Tocchet1984-02952
    98.Vincent Lecavalier1998-16949
    99.Chris Chelios*1983-10948
    100.Jason Arnott1993-12938




    Mats Sundin:

    [​IMG]

    Scoring placements:

    Top five: One (4th)
    Top ten: Two (4th, 7th)
    top 15: Six (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th)
    Top 20: Eight (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th)
    Top 30: 12 (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 27th, 28th)
    Top 40: 16 (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 27th, 28th, 31st, 35th, 38th, 40th)
    Top 50: 16 (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 27th, 28th, 31st, 35th, 38th, 40th)

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    97
    95
    92
    91
    87
    85
    81
    80
    80
    77
    77
    67
    53

    Under 75 games played:

    1995: 81 adjusted points (shortened season: 47 GP)
    2000: 79 adjusted points in 73 GP
    2006: 76 adjusted points in 70 GP
    2007: 77 adjusted points in 75 GP
    2008: 84 adjusted points in 74 GP
    2009: 28 adjusted points in 41 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1995: 82 adjusted point pace in 48 GP (shortened season)
    2006: 89 adjusted point pace
    2007: 84 adjusted point pace
    2008: 93 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 82.1

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

    Ryan Getzlaf: 83.7
    (Active, three top ten scoring finishes, AS-2, Hart finalist, Cup)
    Ilya Kovalchuk: 83.9
    (Active, Rocket Richard, five top ten scoring finishes, AS-1, AS-2)
    Nicklas Backstrom: 87.7
    (Active, four top ten scoring finishes, Cup)
    Claude Giroux: 88.0
    (Active, three top five scoring finishes, AS-2, Hart finalist)
    Steven Stamkos: 88.4
    (Active, two Rocket Richards, two-time AS-2, Hart finalist, four top five scoring finishes)
    Patrick Kane: 89.2
    (Active, three-time AS-1, Calder, Conn Smythe, Hart, Art Ross, three Cups, five top 10 scoring finishes)


    VsX 10: 79.9



    Mike Modano:

    [​IMG]


    Scoring placements:

    Top five: None
    Top ten: Two (8th, 9th)
    top 15: Five (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th)
    Top 20: Seven (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th)
    Top 30: Seven (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th)
    Top 40: 11 (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th, 30th, 32nd, 33rd, 34th)
    Top 50: 13 (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th, 30th, 32nd, 33rd, 34th, 41st, 46th)

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    95
    92
    91
    89
    88
    86
    84
    78
    75
    75
    68
    62
    61
    57
    50
    47

    Under 75 games played:

    1995: 50 adjusted points (shortened season - 30 GP)
    1998: 68 adjusted points in 52 GP
    2007: 44 adjusted points in 59 GP
    2010: 32 adjusted points in 59 GP
    2011: 16 adjusted points in 40 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1995: 80 adjusted point pace in 48 GP (shortened season)
    1998: 107 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 81.5

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

    Henrik Sedin: 84.5
    John Tavares: 82.4
    (Active, two top three Hart voting finishes)
    Marian Hossa: 82.4
    Daniel Alfredsson: 82.3
    Phil Kessel: 82.0
    (Active, four top ten scoring finishes, two Cups)
    Theoren Fleury: 82.0
    John LeClair: 81.7

    VsX 10: 77.7


    Lanny McDonald:

    [​IMG]

    Scoring placements:

    Top five: None
    Top ten: Two (8th, 10th)
    top 15: Five (8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 15th)
    Top 20: Five
    Top 30: Six (8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 28th)
    Top 40: Eight (8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 28th, 33rd, 39th)
    Top 50: Eight

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    81
    81
    79
    72
    63
    63
    56

    Under 75 games played:

    1974: 28 adjusted points in 70 GP
    1975: 38 adjusted points in 64 GP
    1978: 78 adjusted points in 74 GP
    1982: 60 adjusted points in 71 GP
    1984: 52 adjusted points in 65 GP
    1985: 29 adjusted points in 43 GP
    1987: 22 adjusted points in 58 GP
    1988: 19 adjusted points in 60 GP
    1989: 15 adjusted points in 51 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1978: 88 adjusted point pace
    1982: 69 adjusted point pace
    1984: 66 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 74.1

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
    Pavol Demitra 74.5
    Corey Perry 75.0
    (Active, Hart, Rocket Richard, 2X AS-1, Cup)
    Alex Kovalev 75.3
    Joe Pavelski 75.8
    Vincent Lecavalier 76.9
    Alexei Yashin 77.1
    Alexander Mogilny 77.7
    Brad Richards 78.0
    Blake Wheeler 78.3
    Doug Weight 78.3
    Tyler Seguin 78.7
    Patrik Elias 78.9
    Keith Tkachuk 79.0
    Jason Spezza 79.1
    Anze Kopitar 79.2
    (Active, two Selkes, two Cups)
    Henrik Zetterberg 79.5
    (Recently retired, Conn Smythe, AS-2, Cup)
    Daniel Sedin 79.9
    (Recently retired, AS-1, AS-2, Pearson, Art Ross)
    Ziggy Palffy 80.1
    Eric Staal 80.2
    Bernie Nicholls 80.6
    Dany Heatley 81.0
    Jeremy Roenick 81.2
    Jamie Benn 81.4
    (Active, Art Ross, AS-1, AS-1, AS-2)

    VsX 10: 68.0

    Glenn Anderson:

    [​IMG]
    Scoring placements:

    Top five: None
    Top ten: One (9th)
    Top 15: Four (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th)
    Top 20: Four (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th)
    Top 30: Five (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 22nd)
    Top 40: Six (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 22nd, 33rd)
    Top 50: Seven (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 22nd, 33rd, 41st)

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    78
    77
    74
    64
    61
    53
    52
    37

    Under 75 games played:

    1981: 41 adjusted points in 58 GP
    1983: 83 adjusted points in 72 GP
    1986: 80 adjusted points in 72 GP
    1990: 61 adjusted points in 73 GP
    1991: 48 adjusted points in 74 GP
    1992: 50 adjusted points in 72 GP
    1995: 45 adjusted points (shortened season - 36 GP)
    1996: 14 adjusted points in 32 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1983: 95 adjusted point pace
    1986: 91 adjusted point pace
    1990: 69 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 72.0

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
    Rod Brind'Amour 72.6
    Jonathan Toews 72.7
    (Active, AS-2, Selke, Smythe, three Cups)
    Ray Whitney 72.9
    Jakub Voracek 72.9
    Tony Amonte 73.0
    Rick Martin 73.1
    Milan Hejduk 73.1
    Patrick Marleau 73.2
    Rick MacLeish 73.3
    Marc Savard 73.3
    Alex Tanguay 73.4
    Vincent Damphousse 74.0
    Mike Ribeiro 74.1
    Rick Middleton 74.1

    VsX 10: 65.7

    Joe Mullen:

    [​IMG]
    Scoring placements:

    Top five: None
    Top ten: One (7th)
    top 15: Two (7th, 14th)
    Top 20: Four (7th, 14th, 19th, 19th)
    Top 30: Seven (7th, 14th, 19th, 19th, 23rd, 26th, 29th)
    Top 40: Seven
    Top 50: Seven

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    91
    77
    74
    73
    70
    70
    67
    64
    58

    Under 75 games played:

    1982: 43 adjusted points in 45 GP
    1983: 38 adjusted points in 49 GP
    1991: 34 adjusted points in 47 GP
    1993: 57 adjusted points in 72 GP
    1995: 64 adjusted points (shortened season - 45 GP)
    1996: 23 adjusted points in 54 GP
    1997: 15 adjusted points in 37 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1982: 78 adjusted point pace
    1993: 65 adjusted point pace
    1995: 68 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 71.6

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
    Peter Bondra 72.0
    Steve Larmer 71.9
    Taylor Hall 71.8
    (Active, Hart trophy, three top ten scoring finishes)

    VsX 10: 66.6

    Joe Nieuwendyk:

    [​IMG]

    Scoring placements:

    Top five: None
    Top ten: None
    top 15: One (15th)
    Top 20: Three (15th, 16th, 17th)
    Top 30: Five (15th, 16th, 17th, 22nd, 22nd)
    Top 40: Six (15th, 16th, 17th, 22nd, 22nd, 31st)
    Top 50: Seven (15th, 16th, 17th, 22nd, 22nd, 31st, 47th)

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    80
    77
    75
    67
    65
    61
    50

    Under 75 games played:

    1987: 5 adjusted points in 9 GP
    1992: 50 adjusted points in 69 GP
    1994: 68 adjusted points in 64 GP
    1995: 86 adjusted points (shortened season - 46 GP)
    1996: 30 adjusted points in 52 GP
    1997: 53 adjusted points in 66 GP
    1998: 79 adjusted points in 73 GP
    1999: 63 adjusted points in 67 GP
    2000: 37 adjusted points in 48 GP
    2001: 57 adjusted points in 69 GP
    2004: 58 adjusted points in 64 GP
    2006: 55 adjusted points in 65 GP
    2007: 8 adjusted points in 15 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1994: 87 adjusted point pace
    1995: 90 adjusted point pace
    1997: 66 adjusted point pace
    1998: 89 adjusted point pace
    1999: 77 adjusted point pace
    2001: 68 adjusted point pace
    2004: 74 adjusted point pace
    2006: 69 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 70.3

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
    Zach Parise 70.9
    Rene Robert 71.0
    Dennis Maruk 71.3
    Kent Nilsson 71.3

    VsX 10: 66.3

    Dino Ciccarelli:

    [​IMG]

    Scoring placements:

    Top five: None
    Top ten: Two (6th, 9th)
    Top 15: Two (6th, 9th)
    Top 20: Three (6th, 9th, 20th)
    Top 30: Six (6th, 9th, 20th, 23rd, 24th, 30th)
    Top 40: Eight (6th, 9th, 20th, 23rd, 24th, 30th, 39th, 39th)
    Top 50: Ten (6th, 9th, 20th, 23rd, 24th, 30th, 39th, 39th, 44th, 49th)

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    87
    78
    77
    69
    67
    66
    62
    61
    60
    56

    Under 75 games played:

    1981: 23 adjusted points in 32 GP
    1985: 25 adjusted points in 51 GP
    1988: 72 adjusted points in 67 GP
    1991: 35 adjusted points in 54 GP
    1994: 51 adjusted points in 66 GP
    1995: 75 adjusted points (shortened season - 42 GP)
    1996: 41 adjusted points in 64 GP
    1998: 39 adjusted points in 62 GP
    1999: 8 adjusted points in 14 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1988: 88 adjusted point pace
    1995: 86 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 69.8

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

    Marian Gaborik: 69.9
    Dave Taylor: 70.2

    VsX 10: 66.9



    Mike Gartner:

    [​IMG]

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    81
    73
    72
    72
    67
    67
    65
    62
    62
    58
    57
    57
    55
    52

    Top five: None
    Top ten: One (10th)
    Top 15: One (10th)
    Top 20: Two (10th, 17th)
    Top 30: Five (10th, 17th, 26th, 28th, 30th)
    Top 40: Eight (10th, 17th, 26th, 28th, 30th, 31st, 38th, 40th)
    Top 50: 13 (10th, 17th, 26th, 28th, 30th, 31st, 38th, 40th, 42nd, 42nd, 45th, 45th, 50th)

    Under 75 games played:

    1983: 61 adjusted points in 73 GP
    1986: 58 adjusted points in 74 GP
    1989: 57 adjusted points in 69 GP
    1995: 35 adjusted points (shortened season - 38 GP)
    1998: 31 adjusted points in 60 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1983: 69 adjusted point pace
    1989: 68 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 68.8

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

    Bobby Smith: 68.9
    Rick Nash: 69.2

    VsX 10: 66.0


    Clark Gillies:

    [​IMG]


    Scoring placements:

    Top five: None
    Top ten: One (10th)
    Top 15: Two (10th, 13th)
    Top 20: Two (10th, 13th)
    Top 30: Three (10th, 13th, 30th)
    Top 40: Three (10th, 13th, 30th)
    Top 50: Four (10th, 13th, 30th, 47th)

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    76
    76
    60
    56
    53
    40
    22

    Under 75 games played:

    1977: 49 adjusted points in 70 GP
    1980: 46 adjusted points in 73 GP
    1983: 33 adjusted points in 70 GP
    1985: 25 adjusted points in 54 games played
    1986: 11 adjusted points in 55 games played
    1987: 22 adjusted points in 61 games
    1988: 6 adjusted points in 25 games played

    VsX 7: Not available

    VsX 10: Not available
     
  2. HockeyThoughts

    HockeyThoughts Delivering The Truth

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    Great post.

    However, this would definitely be better appreciated/debated more appropriately in the History subforum.
     
  3. jetsforever

    jetsforever Registered User

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    Holy long post, Batman
     
  4. varank

    varank Registered User

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    bruh
     
  5. Nithoniniel

    Nithoniniel Registered User

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    Great stuff. Very interesting read.
     
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  6. maacoshark

    maacoshark Registered User

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    So you are basing everything on offensive stats.
     
  7. klabob

    klabob Registered User

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    It's just a tool to help evaluate an aspect of a player. It gives a good idea how offensive outputs compare to one and another. To evaluate the rest you will obviously need to watch them play.
     
  8. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    No, I'm not. Offense is a good starting point, but you need to consider many other things including defense, awards, playoffs, intangibles, longevity, career milestones, International performance etc to get a good idea of how players compare to members.

    If a player's offense is above the level of multiple Hall of Famers, he at least deserves consideration.

    Although if a player's offense is at a high enough level, you may need reasons to keep him out rather than vice versa.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
  9. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    Yeah, watching players helps evaluate them as well.
     
  10. BigBadBruins7708

    BigBadBruins7708 Registered User

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    making a mistake once doesnt justify repeating that mistake in the future.

    you shouldn't use controversial or "unworthy" inductees to justify more unworthy inductees.

    also, using adjusted points is questionable at best.
     
  11. BigBadBruins7708

    BigBadBruins7708 Registered User

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    thats a false premise.

    countless players have better offensive numbers than Gainey or the pre-war players.
     
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  12. maacoshark

    maacoshark Registered User

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    You have to take into consideration the era that the player played in as well.
     
  13. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    That's what VsX and adjusted points do.
     
  14. maacoshark

    maacoshark Registered User

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    I know but how accurate is that? Its just a prediction. I feel it depends on the player as well. I think players would excellent in any era. I dont think Peter Forsbergs numbers would be much different if he played in a different era. Some guys production would be cut in half.
     

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