A More Realistic Look At The HOF...

[GlitchMarner]

I've provided the best adjusted point totals (in seasons of at least 75 games played) as well as top 50 scoring placements and VsX 7 and VsX 10 scores of certain Hall of Famers. It seems to me people on here generally overrate the threshold. If actual inductees are used as a precedent, there are multiple legitimate candidates among active players. I would say anyone with a VsX 7 score higher than McDonald's deserves a look and anyone with a VsX 7 scorer higher than Modano's and/or Sundin's is a good candidate...

Learn more about VsX 7 and VsX 10 here: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/reference-vsx-comprehensive-summary-1927-to-2017.2215905/

All but six of the NHL's top 63 scorers all-time who are retired and eligible are in the HOF:

NHL Leaders

Rank	Player	Years	PTS
1.	Wayne Gretzky*	1979-99	2857
2.	Jaromir Jagr	1990-18	1921
3.	Mark Messier*	1979-04	1887
4.	Gordie Howe*	1946-80	1850
5.	Ron Francis*	1981-04	1798
6.	Marcel Dionne*	1971-89	1771
7.	Steve Yzerman*	1983-06	1755
8.	Mario Lemieux*	1984-06	1723
9.	Joe Sakic*	1988-09	1641
10.	Phil Esposito*	1963-81	1590
11.	Ray Bourque*	1979-01	1579
12.	Mark Recchi*	1988-11	1533
13.	Paul Coffey*	1980-01	1531
14.	Stan Mikita*	1958-80	1467
15.	Teemu Selanne*	1992-14	1457
16.	Joe Thornton	1997-19	1428
17.	Bryan Trottier*	1975-94	1425
18.	Adam Oates*	1985-04	1420
19.	Doug Gilmour*	1983-03	1414
20.	Dale Hawerchuk*	1981-97	1409
21.	Jari Kurri*	1980-98	1398
22.	Luc Robitaille*	1986-06	1394
23.	Brett Hull*	1986-06	1391
24.	Mike Modano*	1989-11	1374
25.	John Bucyk*	1955-78	1369
26.	Brendan Shanahan*	1987-09	1354
27.	Guy Lafleur*	1971-91	1353
28.	Mats Sundin*	1990-09	1349
29.	Denis Savard*	1980-97	1338
	Dave Andreychuk*	1982-06	1338
31.	Mike Gartner*	1979-98	1335
32.	Pierre Turgeon	1987-07	1327
33.	Gilbert Perreault*	1970-87	1326
34.	Jarome Iginla	1996-17	1300
35.	Alex Delvecchio*	1950-74	1281
36.	Al MacInnis*	1981-04	1274
37.	Jean Ratelle*	1960-81	1267
38.	Peter Stastny*	1980-95	1239
39.	Phil Housley*	1982-03	1232
40.	Norm Ullman*	1955-75	1229
41.	Jean Beliveau*	1950-71	1219
42.	Larry Murphy*	1980-01	1217
43.	Jeremy Roenick	1988-09	1216
44.	Bobby Clarke*	1969-84	1210
45.	Bernie Nicholls	1981-99	1209
46.	Vincent Damphousse	1986-04	1205
47.	Dino Ciccarelli*	1980-99	1200
48.	Rod Brind'Amour	1989-10	1184
49.	Sergei Fedorov*	1990-09	1179
50.	Bobby Hull*	1957-80	1170
51.	Daniel Alfredsson	1995-14	1157
52.	Michel Goulet*	1979-94	1153
53.	Nicklas Lidstrom*	1991-12	1142
54.	Marian Hossa	1997-17	1134
55.	Patrick Marleau	1997-19	1133
56.	Bernie Federko*	1976-90	1130
57.	Joe Nieuwendyk*	1986-07	1126
	Mike Bossy*	1977-87	1126
59.	Alex Ovechkin	2005-19	1125
60.	Darryl Sittler*	1970-85	1121
61.	Sidney Crosby	2005-19	1118
62.	Frank Mahovlich*	1956-74	1103
63.	Glenn Anderson*	1980-96	1099

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

64.	Theoren Fleury	1988-03	1088
65.	Henrik Sedin	2000-18	1070
66.	Dave Taylor	1977-94	1069
67.	Keith Tkachuk	1991-10	1065
68.	Ray Whitney	1991-14	1064
69.	Joe Mullen*	1981-97	1063
70.	Pat Verbeek	1982-02	1062
71.	Denis Potvin*	1973-88	1052
72.	Henri Richard*	1955-75	1046
73.	Daniel Sedin	2000-18	1041
74.	Bobby Smith	1978-93	1036
75.	Martin St. Louis*	1998-15	1033
	Doug Weight	1991-11	1033
77.	Alexander Mogilny	1989-06	1032
78.	Alex Kovalev	1992-13	1029
79.	Brian Leetch*	1987-06	1028
80.	Patrik Elias	1995-16	1025
81.	Brian Bellows	1982-99	1022
82.	Rod Gilbert*	1960-78	1021
83.	Dale Hunter	1980-99	1020
84.	Pat LaFontaine*	1983-98	1013
85.	Steve Larmer	1980-95	1012
86.	Lanny McDonald*	1973-89	1006
87.	Brian Propp	1979-94	1004
88.	Paul Kariya*	1994-10	989
89.	Rick Middleton	1974-88	988
90.	Dave Keon*	1960-82	986
91.	Andy Bathgate*	1952-71	973
92.	Shane Doan	1995-17	972
93.	Maurice Richard*	1942-60	966
94.	Henrik Zetterberg	2002-18	960
95.	Kirk Muller	1984-03	959
96.	Larry Robinson*	1972-92	958
97.	Rick Tocchet	1984-02	952
98.	Vincent Lecavalier	1998-16	949
99.	Chris Chelios*	1983-10	948
100.	Jason Arnott	1993-12	938

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Mats Sundin:

​

Scoring placements:

Top five: One (4th)
Top ten: Two (4th, 7th)
top 15: Six (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th)
Top 20: Eight (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th)
Top 30: 12 (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 27th, 28th)
Top 40: 16 (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 27th, 28th, 31st, 35th, 38th, 40th)
Top 50: 16 (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 27th, 28th, 31st, 35th, 38th, 40th)

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

97
95
92
91
87
85
81
80
80
77
77
67
53

Under 75 games played:

1995: 81 adjusted points (shortened season: 47 GP)
2000: 79 adjusted points in 73 GP
2006: 76 adjusted points in 70 GP
2007: 77 adjusted points in 75 GP
2008: 84 adjusted points in 74 GP
2009: 28 adjusted points in 41 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1995: 82 adjusted point pace in 48 GP (shortened season)
2006: 89 adjusted point pace
2007: 84 adjusted point pace
2008: 93 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 82.1

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

Ryan Getzlaf: 83.7
(Active, three top ten scoring finishes, AS-2, Hart finalist, Cup)
Ilya Kovalchuk: 83.9
(Active, Rocket Richard, five top ten scoring finishes, AS-1, AS-2)
Nicklas Backstrom: 87.7
(Active, four top ten scoring finishes, Cup)
Claude Giroux: 88.0
(Active, three top five scoring finishes, AS-2, Hart finalist)
Steven Stamkos: 88.4
(Active, two Rocket Richards, two-time AS-2, Hart finalist, four top five scoring finishes)
Patrick Kane: 89.2
(Active, three-time AS-1, Calder, Conn Smythe, Hart, Art Ross, three Cups, five top 10 scoring finishes)


VsX 10: 79.9

Mike Modano:​

Scoring placements:

Top five: None
Top ten: Two (8th, 9th)
top 15: Five (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th)
Top 20: Seven (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th)
Top 30: Seven (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th)
Top 40: 11 (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th, 30th, 32nd, 33rd, 34th)
Top 50: 13 (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th, 30th, 32nd, 33rd, 34th, 41st, 46th)

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

95
92
91
89
88
86
84
78
75
75
68
62
61
57
50
47

Under 75 games played:

1995: 50 adjusted points (shortened season - 30 GP)
1998: 68 adjusted points in 52 GP
2007: 44 adjusted points in 59 GP
2010: 32 adjusted points in 59 GP
2011: 16 adjusted points in 40 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1995: 80 adjusted point pace in 48 GP (shortened season)
1998: 107 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 81.5

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

Henrik Sedin: 84.5
John Tavares: 82.4
(Active, two top three Hart voting finishes)
Marian Hossa: 82.4
Daniel Alfredsson: 82.3
Phil Kessel: 82.0
(Active, four top ten scoring finishes, two Cups)
Theoren Fleury: 82.0
John LeClair: 81.7

VsX 10: 77.7

Lanny McDonald:

​

Scoring placements:

Top five: None
Top ten: Two (8th, 10th)
top 15: Five (8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 15th)
Top 20: Five
Top 30: Six (8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 28th)
Top 40: Eight (8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 28th, 33rd, 39th)
Top 50: Eight

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

81
81
79
72
63
63
56

Under 75 games played:

1974: 28 adjusted points in 70 GP
1975: 38 adjusted points in 64 GP
1978: 78 adjusted points in 74 GP
1982: 60 adjusted points in 71 GP
1984: 52 adjusted points in 65 GP
1985: 29 adjusted points in 43 GP
1987: 22 adjusted points in 58 GP
1988: 19 adjusted points in 60 GP
1989: 15 adjusted points in 51 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1978: 88 adjusted point pace
1982: 69 adjusted point pace
1984: 66 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 74.1

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
Pavol Demitra 74.5
Corey Perry 75.0
(Active, Hart, Rocket Richard, 2X AS-1, Cup)
Alex Kovalev 75.3
Joe Pavelski 75.8
Vincent Lecavalier 76.9
Alexei Yashin 77.1
Alexander Mogilny 77.7
Brad Richards 78.0
Blake Wheeler 78.3
Doug Weight 78.3
Tyler Seguin 78.7
Patrik Elias 78.9
Keith Tkachuk 79.0
Jason Spezza 79.1
Anze Kopitar 79.2
(Active, two Selkes, two Cups)
Henrik Zetterberg 79.5
(Recently retired, Conn Smythe, AS-2, Cup)
Daniel Sedin 79.9
(Recently retired, AS-1, AS-2, Pearson, Art Ross)
Ziggy Palffy 80.1
Eric Staal 80.2
Bernie Nicholls 80.6
Dany Heatley 81.0
Jeremy Roenick 81.2
Jamie Benn 81.4
(Active, Art Ross, AS-1, AS-1, AS-2)

VsX 10: 68.0

Glenn Anderson:

​

Scoring placements:

Top five: None
Top ten: One (9th)
Top 15: Four (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th)
Top 20: Four (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th)
Top 30: Five (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 22nd)
Top 40: Six (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 22nd, 33rd)
Top 50: Seven (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 22nd, 33rd, 41st)

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

78
77
74
64
61
53
52
37

Under 75 games played:

1981: 41 adjusted points in 58 GP
1983: 83 adjusted points in 72 GP
1986: 80 adjusted points in 72 GP
1990: 61 adjusted points in 73 GP
1991: 48 adjusted points in 74 GP
1992: 50 adjusted points in 72 GP
1995: 45 adjusted points (shortened season - 36 GP)
1996: 14 adjusted points in 32 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1983: 95 adjusted point pace
1986: 91 adjusted point pace
1990: 69 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 72.0

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
Rod Brind'Amour 72.6
Jonathan Toews 72.7
(Active, AS-2, Selke, Smythe, three Cups)
Ray Whitney 72.9
Jakub Voracek 72.9
Tony Amonte 73.0
Rick Martin 73.1
Milan Hejduk 73.1
Patrick Marleau 73.2
Rick MacLeish 73.3
Marc Savard 73.3
Alex Tanguay 73.4
Vincent Damphousse 74.0
Mike Ribeiro 74.1
Rick Middleton 74.1

VsX 10: 65.7

Joe Mullen:

​

Scoring placements:

Top five: None
Top ten: One (7th)
top 15: Two (7th, 14th)
Top 20: Four (7th, 14th, 19th, 19th)
Top 30: Seven (7th, 14th, 19th, 19th, 23rd, 26th, 29th)
Top 40: Seven
Top 50: Seven

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

91
77
74
73
70
70
67
64
58

Under 75 games played:

1982: 43 adjusted points in 45 GP
1983: 38 adjusted points in 49 GP
1991: 34 adjusted points in 47 GP
1993: 57 adjusted points in 72 GP
1995: 64 adjusted points (shortened season - 45 GP)
1996: 23 adjusted points in 54 GP
1997: 15 adjusted points in 37 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1982: 78 adjusted point pace
1993: 65 adjusted point pace
1995: 68 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 71.6

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
Peter Bondra 72.0
Steve Larmer 71.9
Taylor Hall 71.8
(Active, Hart trophy, three top ten scoring finishes)

VsX 10: 66.6

Joe Nieuwendyk:

​

Scoring placements:

Top five: None
Top ten: None
top 15: One (15th)
Top 20: Three (15th, 16th, 17th)
Top 30: Five (15th, 16th, 17th, 22nd, 22nd)
Top 40: Six (15th, 16th, 17th, 22nd, 22nd, 31st)
Top 50: Seven (15th, 16th, 17th, 22nd, 22nd, 31st, 47th)

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

80
77
75
67
65
61
50

Under 75 games played:

1987: 5 adjusted points in 9 GP
1992: 50 adjusted points in 69 GP
1994: 68 adjusted points in 64 GP
1995: 86 adjusted points (shortened season - 46 GP)
1996: 30 adjusted points in 52 GP
1997: 53 adjusted points in 66 GP
1998: 79 adjusted points in 73 GP
1999: 63 adjusted points in 67 GP
2000: 37 adjusted points in 48 GP
2001: 57 adjusted points in 69 GP
2004: 58 adjusted points in 64 GP
2006: 55 adjusted points in 65 GP
2007: 8 adjusted points in 15 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1994: 87 adjusted point pace
1995: 90 adjusted point pace
1997: 66 adjusted point pace
1998: 89 adjusted point pace
1999: 77 adjusted point pace
2001: 68 adjusted point pace
2004: 74 adjusted point pace
2006: 69 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 70.3

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
Zach Parise 70.9
Rene Robert 71.0
Dennis Maruk 71.3
Kent Nilsson 71.3

VsX 10: 66.3

Dino Ciccarelli:

​

Scoring placements:

Top five: None
Top ten: Two (6th, 9th)
Top 15: Two (6th, 9th)
Top 20: Three (6th, 9th, 20th)
Top 30: Six (6th, 9th, 20th, 23rd, 24th, 30th)
Top 40: Eight (6th, 9th, 20th, 23rd, 24th, 30th, 39th, 39th)
Top 50: Ten (6th, 9th, 20th, 23rd, 24th, 30th, 39th, 39th, 44th, 49th)

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

87
78
77
69
67
66
62
61
60
56

Under 75 games played:

1981: 23 adjusted points in 32 GP
1985: 25 adjusted points in 51 GP
1988: 72 adjusted points in 67 GP
1991: 35 adjusted points in 54 GP
1994: 51 adjusted points in 66 GP
1995: 75 adjusted points (shortened season - 42 GP)
1996: 41 adjusted points in 64 GP
1998: 39 adjusted points in 62 GP
1999: 8 adjusted points in 14 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1988: 88 adjusted point pace
1995: 86 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 69.8

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

Marian Gaborik: 69.9
Dave Taylor: 70.2

VsX 10: 66.9

Mike Gartner:

​

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

81
73
72
72
67
67
65
62
62
58
57
57
55
52

Top five: None
Top ten: One (10th)
Top 15: One (10th)
Top 20: Two (10th, 17th)
Top 30: Five (10th, 17th, 26th, 28th, 30th)
Top 40: Eight (10th, 17th, 26th, 28th, 30th, 31st, 38th, 40th)
Top 50: 13 (10th, 17th, 26th, 28th, 30th, 31st, 38th, 40th, 42nd, 42nd, 45th, 45th, 50th)

Under 75 games played:

1983: 61 adjusted points in 73 GP
1986: 58 adjusted points in 74 GP
1989: 57 adjusted points in 69 GP
1995: 35 adjusted points (shortened season - 38 GP)
1998: 31 adjusted points in 60 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1983: 69 adjusted point pace
1989: 68 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 68.8

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

Bobby Smith: 68.9
Rick Nash: 69.2

VsX 10: 66.0

Clark Gillies:

​

Scoring placements:

Top five: None
Top ten: One (10th)
Top 15: Two (10th, 13th)
Top 20: Two (10th, 13th)
Top 30: Three (10th, 13th, 30th)
Top 40: Three (10th, 13th, 30th)
Top 50: Four (10th, 13th, 30th, 47th)

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

76
76
60
56
53
40
22

Under 75 games played:

1977: 49 adjusted points in 70 GP
1980: 46 adjusted points in 73 GP
1983: 33 adjusted points in 70 GP
1985: 25 adjusted points in 54 games played
1986: 11 adjusted points in 55 games played
1987: 22 adjusted points in 61 games
1988: 6 adjusted points in 25 games played

VsX 7: Not available

VsX 10: Not available

Click to read more...

 

[HockeyThoughts]

Great post.

However, this would definitely be better appreciated/debated more appropriately in the History subforum.

 

[jetsforever]

Holy long post, Batman

 

[Varan]

bruh

 

[Nithoniniel]

Great stuff. Very interesting read.

 

[maacoshark]

So you are basing everything on offensive stats.

 

[RogerRoger]

So you are basing everything on offensive stats.

It's just a tool to help evaluate an aspect of a player. It gives a good idea how offensive outputs compare to one and another. To evaluate the rest you will obviously need to watch them play.

 

[GlitchMarner]

So you are basing everything on offensive stats.

No, I'm not. Offense is a good starting point, but you need to consider many other things including defense, awards, playoffs, intangibles, longevity, career milestones, International performance etc to get a good idea of how players compare to members.

If a player's offense is above the level of multiple Hall of Famers, he at least deserves consideration.

Although if a player's offense is at a high enough level, you may need reasons to keep him out rather than vice versa.

 

[GlitchMarner]

It's just a tool to help evaluate an aspect of a player. It gives a good idea how offensive outputs compare to one and another. To evaluate the rest you will obviously need to watch them play.

Yeah, watching players helps evaluate them as well.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

making a mistake once doesnt justify repeating that mistake in the future.

you shouldn't use controversial or "unworthy" inductees to justify more unworthy inductees.

also, using adjusted points is questionable at best.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

No, I'm not. Offense is a good starting point, but you need to consider many other things including defense, awards, playoffs, intangibles, longevity, career milestones, International performance etc to get a good idea of how players compare to members.

If a player's offense is above the level of multiple Hall of Famers, he at least deserves consideration.

Although if a player's offense is at a high enough level, you may need reasons to keep him out rather than vice versa.

thats a false premise.

countless players have better offensive numbers than Gainey or the pre-war players.

 

[maacoshark]

No, I'm not. Offense is a good starting point, but you need to consider many other things including defense, awards, playoffs, intangibles, longevity, career milestones, International performance etc to get a good idea of how players compare to members.

If a player's offense is above the level of multiple Hall of Famers, he at least deserves consideration.

Although if a player's offense is at a high enough level, you may need reasons to keep him out rather than vice versa.

You have to take into consideration the era that the player played in as well.

 

[GlitchMarner]

You have to take into consideration the era that the player played in as well.

That's what VsX and adjusted points do.

 

[maacoshark]

That's what VsX and adjusted points do.

I know but how accurate is that? Its just a prediction. I feel it depends on the player as well. I think players would excellent in any era. I dont think Peter Forsbergs numbers would be much different if he played in a different era. Some guys production would be cut in half.