Salary Cap: CBJ and the salary cap

[majormajor]

Since we're talking about salaries. Can someone explain the process and the people involved in negotiating contracts? I thought I read somewhere it was an assistant (Zito?) who negotiates contracts and not Jarmo, which makes absolutely no sense to me but what do I know. Does anyone know for sure? Also, I'm not sure how it will go over in the locker room if the CBJ offer Zach more than Seth makes when those two, at least for this season, aren't comparable.

It will have precisely zero locker room ramifications if Zach is paid more than Seth. Seth wasn't as good in his first couple years in the league and he signed a contract before becoming as established as Zach is. Everyone knows that Seth is vastly underpaid now. The dynamic where a player is paid more than a better teammate is very common. They would be the new Keith - Seabrook (back when both were good).

Zito handles contracts, but I think according to Jarmo's parameters. I do think it's a good idea to split the negotiation role from the strategy role, it makes it easier to stick to your plan. I could be wrong and Zito is given a lot of leeway on contract amounts, I'm not sure. Zito is seemingly very respected around the league and I heard him mentioned recently as a possible candidate for the Edmonton GM vacancy.

 

[Maylo]

It will have precisely zero locker room ramifications if Zach is paid more than Seth. Seth wasn't as good in his first couple years in the league and he signed a contract before becoming as established as Zach is.

Zach doesn't deserve half Seth Jones money the way he's playing this season. Dude is either on sedatives or there is a block between his brain and legs/hands that freezes his in game decisions.

 

[EspenK]

It will have precisely zero locker room ramifications if Zach is paid more than Seth. Seth wasn't as good in his first couple years in the league and he signed a contract before becoming as established as Zach is. Everyone knows that Seth is vastly underpaid now. The dynamic where a player is paid more than a better teammate is very common. They would be the new Keith - Seabrook (back when both were good).

Zito handles contracts, but I think according to Jarmo's parameters. I do think it's a good idea to split the negotiation role from the strategy role, it makes it easier to stick to your plan. I could be wrong and Zito is given a lot of leeway on contract amounts, I'm not sure. Zito is seemingly very respected around the league and I heard him mentioned recently as a possible candidate for the Edmonton GM vacancy.

Agree on the Seth-Zach issue. I don't get why people don't get this concept.

As to the 2nd point I have to believe the team brain trust has a multi-year spreadsheet laying out multiple salary cap scenarios and ranges for salaries. I'm 100% positive that Zito doesn't have free range to determine salaries.

 

[EspenK]

See below for my guesstimates if we sign Bread, Bob & Duchene and the cap increases 3% per annum. The 1 nillion dollar guys are ELC's and scrap heap guys we add to fill the roster. Names will change. You can quibble with some of the numbers but I think they are ballpark and balance out. Bottom line is that without gutting some key players I don't think the "Big 3" can all be signed. I also think the Bob bridge is definitely burned and 99% the Bread one is also so it is just an exercise in fantasy.

	2019-2020	2020-2021	2021-2022	2022-2023	2023-2024
Jenner	3.75	3.75	3.75	1	1
Duchene	8.5	8.5	8.5	8.5	8.5
Foligno	5.5	5.5	4	4	4
Robinson	1.2	1	1	1	1
Atkinson	5.85	5.85	5.85	5.85	5.85
Hannikainen	1	1	1	1	1
Bread	11	11	11	11	11
Dzingel (gone)	1	1	1	1	1
Anderson	1.85	6	6	6	6
Bjorkstrand	2.5	2.5	6	6	6
Texier	1	1	4	4	4
PLD	0.894	7	7	7	7
Nash	2.75	2.75	1	1	1
Total Forwards	46.794	56.85	60.1	57.35	57.35
Defensemen
Murray	5	5	5	5	5
Jones	5.4	5.4	5.4	9	9
Savard	4.25	4.25	1	1	1
Harrington/Kukan	1	1	1	1	1
Werenski	6	6	6	6	6
Nutivaara	2.7	2.7	2.7	3.5	3.5
Gavrikov	1	1	5	5	5
Total Defense	25.35	25.35	26.1	30.5	30.5
Goalies	9	11	11	11	11
Buyouts
Hartnell	1.25
Dubi	0	1.95	1.95	1.95
tyutin	1.458
Total Buyouts	2.708	1.95	1.95	1.95	0
Total	83.852	95.15	99.15	100.8	98.85
Cap @ 3% inc	81.885	84.34155	86.8718	89.47795	92.16229
Excess	1.967	10.80845	12.2782	11.32205	6.687711

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[EDM]

I hate the idea of trying to pick up college seniors and other types of dumpster diving like the CBJ of 5-10 years ago. I love what Jarmo did this year, adding real NHL players to the roster. I think he is a smart enough GM to figure out how to balance the roster and the budget. One absolute is true for me, however. When Duchene is signed, Wennberg is gone one way or another.

 

[blahblah]

See below for my guesstimates if we sign Bread, Bob & Duchene and the cap increases 3% per annum.

Signing both of Bob and Panarin was a fantasy that got squashed when we brought over Duchene and by the players not extending already. We seem to be all over the map here. It's far more likely Dzingel will be here than Bob or Panarin.

Frankly, I wouldn't even bother with this until the offseason and the draft. Way too much speculation with almost no idea of what's going to happen. Once the long term deals hit and we, more accurately, predict our cap with the signings of our RFA's.

Also, we tend to add these numbers in a vacuum and give no considerations to things like trades. As I said earlier, to get the players you want under contract you have to do some additional work to the roster. While some of this might be possible to get done, it might not be what's best for the franchise.

 

[su24]

Werenski can't make more than Seth Jones. He can't even ask about it. I'm not even sure if he should make more than David Savard at this point. He has been the 4th best defenseman on the team this season (including Murray). You don't make your 4th defenseman the highest paid.

 

[blahblah]

Werenski can't make more than Seth Jones. He can't even ask about it. I'm not even sure if he should make more than David Savard at this point. He has been the 4th best defenseman on the team this season (including Murray). You don't make your 4th defenseman the highest paid.

Oy vey.

The market (and term) will dictate his pay, not who makes what on the team or our view of where he is on the depth chart. This is also year 3 of Seth's contract. That's like 85 in contract years.

 

[majormajor]

See below for my guesstimates if we sign Bread, Bob & Duchene and the cap increases 3% per annum. The 1 nillion dollar guys are ELC's and scrap heap guys we add to fill the roster. Names will change. You can quibble with some of the numbers but I think they are ballpark and balance out. Bottom line is that without gutting some key players I don't think the "Big 3" can all be signed. I also think the Bob bridge is definitely burned and 99% the Bread one is also so it is just an exercise in fantasy.

	2019-2020	2020-2021	2021-2022	2022-2023	2023-2024
Jenner	3.75	3.75	3.75	1	1
Duchene	8.5	8.5	8.5	8.5	8.5
Foligno	5.5	5.5	4	4	4
Robinson	1.2	1	1	1	1
Atkinson	5.85	5.85	5.85	5.85	5.85
Hannikainen	1	1	1	1	1
Bread	11	11	11	11	11
Dzingel (gone)	1	1	1	1	1
Anderson	1.85	6	6	6	6
Bjorkstrand	2.5	2.5	6	6	6
Texier	1	1	4	4	4
PLD	0.894	7	7	7	7
Nash	2.75	2.75	1	1	1
Total Forwards	46.794	56.85	60.1	57.35	57.35
Defensemen
Murray	5	5	5	5	5
Jones	5.4	5.4	5.4	9	9
Savard	4.25	4.25	1	1	1
Harrington/Kukan	1	1	1	1	1
Werenski	6	6	6	6	6
Nutivaara	2.7	2.7	2.7	3.5	3.5
Gavrikov	1	1	5	5	5
Total Defense	25.35	25.35	26.1	30.5	30.5
Goalies	9	11	11	11	11
Buyouts
Hartnell	1.25
Dubi	0	1.95	1.95	1.95
tyutin	1.458
Total Buyouts	2.708	1.95	1.95	1.95	0
Total	83.852	95.15	99.15	100.8	98.85
Cap @ 3% inc	81.885	84.34155	86.8718	89.47795	92.16229
Excess	1.967	10.80845	12.2782	11.32205	6.687711

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

You're offering a little more than I would to some guys. Dubois can certainly be had for less than $7m if they do his extension this summer, maybe under $6m even, I also think Anderson will be under $6m if they extend him this summer. My Bob offer topped out at $8m per, and also Duchene at $8m per. If they want to be here along with Panarin, that's the offer.

Next year is simple enough, even with what I call overpays you're just one Riley Nash trade away from fitting under the cap.

For 2020-21, I think this looks like a really good roster:

Panarin (11)	Dubois (6)	Bjorkstrand (2.5)	19.5
Texier (1)	Duchene (8)	Atkinson (5.85)	14.85
Bemstrom (1)	Jenner (3.75)	Anderson (5.6)	10.35
Robinson (1)	Foligno (5.5)	Foudy (1)	7.5
Sedlak (1)			1
Werenski (6)	Jones (5.4)		11.4
Gavrikov (2.75)	Nutivaara (2.75)		5.5
Kukan (2)	Peeke (1)		3
Carlsson (1)			1
Bobrovsky			8
Merzlikins			2
			84.10

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So yes, we had to trade some players to make it fit, but at the end of the day this is a very good roster and it is in no way "gutted".

 

[KJ Dangler]

Signing both of Bob and Panarin was a fantasy that got squashed when we brought over Duchene and by the players not extending already. We seem to be all over the map here. It's far more likely Dzingel will be here than Bob or Panarin.

Frankly, I wouldn't even bother with this until the offseason and the draft. Way too much speculation with almost no idea of what's going to happen. Once the long term deals hit and we, more accurately, predict our cap with the signings of our RFA's.

Also, we tend to add these numbers in a vacuum and give no considerations to things like trades. As I said earlier, to get the players you want under contract you have to do some additional work to the roster. While some of this might be possible to get done, it might not be what's best for the franchise.

Yup, there is almost 0 chance Bob is back , and that’s mainly the front offices decision not Bobs. I still hold out hope that Bread sees the light , especially with Duchene here. He’s had a great year playing with PLD , but I don’t get the impression from his comments to Russian media , he feels he has someone that can play his game , like Kane did .

With the vast majority of our core being early 20s , the salary cap is going to get tricky fast . And there is no way in hell they were going to tie up 8, 9 or 10 mill for a goalie , especially not with Merzy, Tarasov, and Vevi knocking on the door . Initially , I thought Werenski could be a huge trade piece this summer to acquire an elite winger, and maybe that still happens , but Bjorkstrand is turning into an allstar right before our eyes . Texier looks like he could become something special rather quickly , and just yesterday , Porty is saying he expects Bemström to be with the jackets next year . Have to imagine it’s info he’s hearing from within the org, as that’s a pretty bold statement .

 

[Cowumbus]

Wennberg traded for picks next year. Not sure we need to keep Dzingel either unless he takes a “hometown” discount

 

[Cowumbus]

Also I am still high on TFW stepping in and being a solid middle 6 guy

 

[su24]

Oy vey.

The market (and term) will dictate his pay, not who makes what on the team or our view of where he is on the depth chart. This is also year 3 of Seth's contract. That's like 85 in contract years.

Ой мляяяць.
I'm glad that you don't handle the contracts negotiations. Otherwise Johansen, Jenner Anderson, Jones and some other Jackets players would have signed for much heftier prices.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

See below for my guesstimates if we sign Bread, Bob & Duchene and the cap increases 3% per annum. The 1 nillion dollar guys are ELC's and scrap heap guys we add to fill the roster. Names will change. You can quibble with some of the numbers but I think they are ballpark and balance out. Bottom line is that without gutting some key players I don't think the "Big 3" can all be signed. I also think the Bob bridge is definitely burned and 99% the Bread one is also so it is just an exercise in fantasy.

	2019-2020	2020-2021	2021-2022	2022-2023	2023-2024
Jenner	3.75	3.75	3.75	1	1
Duchene	8.5	8.5	8.5	8.5	8.5
Foligno	5.5	5.5	4	4	4
Robinson	1.2	1	1	1	1
Atkinson	5.85	5.85	5.85	5.85	5.85
Hannikainen	1	1	1	1	1
Bread	11	11	11	11	11
Dzingel (gone)	1	1	1	1	1
Anderson	1.85	6	6	6	6
Bjorkstrand	2.5	2.5	6	6	6
Texier	1	1	4	4	4
PLD	0.894	7	7	7	7
Nash	2.75	2.75	1	1	1
Total Forwards	46.794	56.85	60.1	57.35	57.35
Defensemen
Murray	5	5	5	5	5
Jones	5.4	5.4	5.4	9	9
Savard	4.25	4.25	1	1	1
Harrington/Kukan	1	1	1	1	1
Werenski	6	6	6	6	6
Nutivaara	2.7	2.7	2.7	3.5	3.5
Gavrikov	1	1	5	5	5
Total Defense	25.35	25.35	26.1	30.5	30.5
Goalies	9	11	11	11	11
Buyouts
Hartnell	1.25
Dubi	0	1.95	1.95	1.95
tyutin	1.458
Total Buyouts	2.708	1.95	1.95	1.95	0
Total	83.852	95.15	99.15	100.8	98.85
Cap @ 3% inc	81.885	84.34155	86.8718	89.47795	92.16229
Excess	1.967	10.80845	12.2782	11.32205	6.687711

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Thanks for the work.

You may have made an error on Dubi. I don't see him with a number for 2019-20 in the either the salary or buyout rows.

 

[blahblah]

Ой мляяяць.
I'm glad that you don't handle the contracts negotiations. Otherwise Johansen, Jenner Anderson, Jones and some other Jackets players would have signed for much heftier prices.

At no point did I even imply what I would offer him. I suggest taking the time to comprehend what you read. Cheers.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

When Duchene is signed, Wennberg is gone one way or another.

I 'd think he's gone regardless of Duchene. He's owed almost $20 million and can be bought out for 1/3rd of that due to being under 25 years old. So either he's bought out or given away. His buyout cap hit would amount to $450,000 per year over the next 4 years (freeing $4.5m per year) and would rise to $791,000 from years 5-8.

Alexander Wennberg Contract Buyout Details - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

I would hope that Wennberg (barring injuries in this year's playoff run) will ever see the ice again as a CBJ. We've seen enough of him.

 

[pled]

I 'd think he's gone regardless of Duchene. He's owed almost $20 million and can be bought out for 1/3rd of that due to being under 25 years old. So either he's bought out or given away. His buyout cap hit would amount to $450,000 per year over the next 4 years (freeing $4.5m per year) and would rise to $791,000 from years 5-8.

Alexander Wennberg Contract Buyout Details - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

I would hope that Wennberg (barring injuries in this year's playoff run) will ever see the ice again as a CBJ. We've seen enough of him.

I'm sure a gm is willing to give us pretty used training pucks for him. it's not like he was a bust confirmed. teams took on bigger contract for worst player before.
if they want to get rid of dubi they gonna have to pay the other team but I don't think it's impossible too.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I'm sure a gm is willing to give us pretty used training pucks for him. it's not like he was a bust confirmed. teams took on bigger contract for worst player before.
if they want to get rid of dubi they gonna have to pay the other team but I don't think it's impossible too.

The problem with another team trading for him is his $4.9m tag. He's done nothing this season or last to come close to justifying that hit. Since the CBJ can buy him out for so little, salary retention won't enter Wennberg's trade equation. Perhaps someone will trade for him, but I'd doubt it-until after the buyout period ends.

Dubinsky's contract will have to be eaten in full by the CBJ. No one's going to touch him at nearly $6 million-even with the CBJ retaining the max of 50%.

 

[pled]

Dubinsky's contract will have to be eaten in full by the CBJ. No one's going to touch him at nearly $6 million-even with the CBJ retaining the max of 50%.

for dubi I meant like camp dump there has been worst case before like Garrison or Orpik. in the orpick trade they got a 2nd for him and grubner just for him to be bought out by colorado. I know columbus wont get a 2nd but if packaged with korpi for future considerations I can see it if a gm like korpi. what montreal got to take on mason buyout is probably closer to whats possible here but it's still somewhat possible I mean.

 

[Ice9]

I’m not so sure Werenski is even on this team next season.

#8 for the right price. I'm not opposed to listening to offers for the right high powered forward of at least comparable quality.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

for dubi I meant like camp dump there has been worst case before like Garrison or Orpik. in the orpick trade they got a 2nd for him and grubner just for him to be bought out by colorado. I know columbus wont get a 2nd but if packaged with korpi for future considerations I can see it if a gm like korpi. what montreal got to take on mason buyout is probably closer to whats possible here but it's still somewhat possible I mean.

I can see what you're saying. Perhaps Dubi and an asset for something or Dubi for a bad contract coming our way.

 

[pled]

I can see what you're saying. Perhaps Dubi and an asset for something or Dubi for a bad contract coming our way.

I know it's a long way but Jarmo probably still trying that. he has to try everything he can.

 

[EspenK]

Thanks for the work.

You may have made an error on Dubi. I don't see him with a number for 2019-20 in the either the salary or buyout rows.

Yeah I think I erased that during an iteration where he wasn't bought out. So kick up next year by 1.9mm

 

[EspenK]

You're offering a little more than I would to some guys. Dubois can certainly be had for less than $7m if they do his extension this summer, maybe under $6m even, I also think Anderson will be under $6m if they extend him this summer. My Bob offer topped out at $8m per, and also Duchene at $8m per. If they want to be here along with Panarin, that's the offer.

Next year is simple enough, even with what I call overpays you're just one Riley Nash trade away from fitting under the cap.

For 2020-21, I think this looks like a really good roster:

Panarin (11)	Dubois (6)	Bjorkstrand (2.5)	19.5
Texier (1)	Duchene (8)	Atkinson (5.85)	14.85
Bemstrom (1)	Jenner (3.75)	Anderson (5.6)	10.35
Robinson (1)	Foligno (5.5)	Foudy (1)	7.5
Sedlak (1)			1
Werenski (6)	Jones (5.4)		11.4
Gavrikov (2.75)	Nutivaara (2.75)		5.5
Kukan (2)	Peeke (1)		3
Carlsson (1)			1
Bobrovsky			8
Merzlikins			2
			84.10

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So yes, we had to trade some players to make it fit, but at the end of the day this is a very good roster and it is in no way "gutted".

Again I agree next year could be done. I 'm not sure what happened to Dubi in your example but I think you're missing Toots & Hartnell buyouts and maybe Dubi's. Given Anderson's last contract negotiation I think you may be too optimistic. Maybe not. The real problems come down the road but I suppose if you keep making trades and inserting players at "reasonable" rates you'll always make it work. I just don't think it will work that way.

Plus this all just talk because I really don't see B&B both here next year and one of the two is also highly unlikely imo.

 

[majormajor]

Again I agree next year could be done. I 'm not sure what happened to Dubi in your example but I think you're missing Toots & Hartnell buyouts and maybe Dubi's. Given Anderson's last contract negotiation I think you may be too optimistic. Maybe not. The real problems come down the road but I suppose if you keep making trades and inserting players at "reasonable" rates you'll always make it work. I just don't think it will work that way.

This is for 2020-21, as you point out in your own damn chart the Toots and Hartnell buyouts are off the books by then. Dubinsky, as I said yesterday, I would pay to trade - we have plenty of assets in Korpi/prospects to make that happen. If we keep the big 3 it's worth it to get Dubi's deal off the books entirely. Murray and Savard are also high-value assets, so moving them out for cap reasons also gives us plenty of trade value.

Anderson cannot command $6m this summer, he doesn't have anywhere near the resume for that. Be realistic. And he's not going to bang his head around for a whole year with the hope of upping his value by $400k. That's too risky. He'll take the money.

Plus this all just talk because I really don't see B&B both here next year and one of the two is also highly unlikely imo.

Of course, this is just the "optimistic scenario" in which the big 3 are willing to sign at the aforementioned prices. The whole point of the discussion was to figure out if signing all 3 was feasible cap-wise. It is.