A history of racist incidents (and false alarms) in hockey...

[adsfan]

Archie Bunker fictional? Truth is so hard to tell, it sometimes needs fiction to make it plausible (Bacon). Bunker was a fictional character who mirrored the values of the larger American public at the time. Cherry and his values represented the larger Canadian public for a long time as well.

Nope. Archie Bunker was the loveable bigot of the 1970s. Producer Norman Lear was and is a big time lefty, so he set up Archie as the ignorant, loud mouth conservative, a straw man to be knocked down so Lear could make his points about American society. You could not have that show on US network TV now. There is too much PC.

I think Don Cherry has about as much in common with the average Canadian as Archie did with the average American. In both cases, I think not much because I think both are an act. I have never met another Canadian like Cherry. I have met a few Archie Bunkers in the last 40 years.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

not to beat a dead horse, but is it still an educated guess when a guy screening applications for a statistician job thinks to himself "men are better than women at math" because, statistically speaking, men test higher in math?

or, less innocently, is it still an educated guess when that same guy screens out the female applicants because there are just too many to go through and, statistically speaking, the job is probably not going to go to a woman?

at what point does an "educated guess" become something else? where do we draw that line?

This is really streching the scenario that was originally deemed racist.

If I have to pick between a black man and a white to hire based on their speed, I don't have to assume anything. I can have them race. Or I can get their recorded times.

Just as the person hiring a man or woman based on math skills would not assume the man was better at math. He would either test them or get previous math related scores.

Certainly going in I can assume the black man is faster and the man is better at math. But if my job is to hire one based on those abilities I will find out what the truth is. If the balck man is faster or the woman is better at math but I still hire the white man or the bad math man, then we have some isms.

 

[Proust*]

So Simmonds gets caught calling Avery the F-word. It's a word that has probably been used a million times on the ice, but Simmonds got caught.

 

[LetsGoIslanders]

So Simmonds gets caught calling Avery the F-word. It's a word that has probably been used a million times on the ice, but Simmonds got caught.

Simmonds didn't get caught, I mean there is video evidence, but it's Avery making a big deal out of this. 99% of players wouldn't care and wouldn't make an issue of it, they've heard that word millions of times on the ice and locker room. Sean Avery is trying to make it about himself.

 

[Proust*]

Simmonds didn't get caught, I mean there is video evidence, but it's Avery making a big deal out of this. 99% of players wouldn't care and wouldn't make an issue of it, they've heard that word millions of times on the ice and locker room. Sean Avery is trying to make it about himself.

Good for Avery. If the NHL is serious about stamping out homophobia, then the F-word needs to get the same treatment as the N-word. Either all this stuff is off limits, or it's fair game.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Good for Avery. If the NHL is serious about stamping out homophobia, then the F-word needs to get the same treatment as the N-word. Either all this stuff is off limits, or it's fair game.

I agree to a certain extent, but not about Avery. I suspect he's being a massive hypocrite in this case. I don't have any proof, of course, but based on past history I suspect he's indulged in such language himself.

 

[seventieslord]

I agree to a certain extent, but not about Avery. I suspect he's being a massive hypocrite in this case. I don't have any proof, of course, but based on past history I suspect he's indulged in such language himself.

probably, but maybe not... he has spoken out in favour of gay marriage. Of course, that doesn't necessarily have to be a reflection of his on-ice persona, and I admit it's probably not.


since we're getting pretty broad here, can I ask you guys a simple question? If there was a thread called "Favourite non-white player?" would that be racist?

 

[Iain Fyffe]

probably, but maybe not... he has spoken out in favour of gay marriage. Of course, that doesn't necessarily have to be a reflection of his on-ice persona, and I admit it's probably not.

I was thinking in more general terms. Perhaps not homophobic slurs specifically but some sort of derogatory language.

 

[Proust*]

since we're getting pretty broad here, can I ask you guys a simple question? If there was a thread called "Favourite non-white player?" would that be racist?

No, because of the context. Hockey has, historically, been played by white people, so it newsworthy to discuss non-white players. Any sort of "statistical anomaly" is always newsworthy for obvious reasons. As non-white players become more prevalent, and their precense less-trivial, it will start to become odd to create a "Favourite non-white player" thread.

If you make a "Favourite white player" thread, you are probably racist. The act itself is not racist in some absolute form, but you are pretty much advertising what's going on in your head. You made the thread for one of the following reasons:
a) You are a white supremacist.
b) You perceive a double-standard (ie. you don't understand/accept my paragraph above) and are being provocative (ie. trolling).

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

This is really streching the scenario that was originally deemed racist.

If I have to pick between a black man and a white to hire based on their speed, I don't have to assume anything. I can have them race. Or I can get their recorded times.

Just as the person hiring a man or woman based on math skills would not assume the man was better at math. He would either test them or get previous math related scores.

Certainly going in I can assume the black man is faster and the man is better at math. But if my job is to hire one based on those abilities I will find out what the truth is. If the balck man is faster or the woman is better at math but I still hire the white man or the bad math man, then we have some isms.

well yeah, that's a pretty obvious line.

the complexity of the examples i gave, that you have too many applications in front of you to even read all of them, which ones are you going to weed out on first glance alone, that was supposed to speak to how and why we stereotype. we make, as you say, "educated guesses" to save time or energy.

an example: 250 people applied for my job this year. those applications each came with three letters of recommendation, a 20+ page writing sample, two personal statements, on top of the resume and cover letter, and this is an industry with massive layoffs and reduced hours for administrative staff. so who is going to read all those applications? and, again, at what point does stereotyping, whether based on gender, race, country or city of origin, even age or something stupid like what font you use come into play?

but it was a rhetorical question, and not one intended necessarily to call you out, which was not the intention, but to point out that it's a slippery slope from the kind of innocent stereotyping we all do on a daily basis without even thinking about it and cases where clearly a line has been crossed.

(not to say, by the way, that i assume women are bad at math.)

 

[tarheelhockey]

I was thinking in more general terms. Perhaps not homophobic slurs specifically but some sort of derogatory language.

Uh... ya think?

- The infamous "sloppy seconds" comment
- Called Andy McDonald an "arrogant little midget"
- Said on TSN that French players run around acting tough with visors on, but never back up their words
- Was accused of, but never proven to have called George Laraques a monkey. His former teammates have backed up the accusation.
- Called Brodeur "fatso" to the media
- Unleashed a tirade at a female fan during a game in Boston

So we have a guy who has been on record with anti-woman, anti-black, anti-French, anti-fat, and anti-short-people comments getting upset over an anti-gay comment Either he is just trolling the Flyers as part of his agitator role, or he really is completely delusional about between different types of prejudice.

Anyway, last night's game was a well-timed refresher course on the reality of life on NHL ice. Dozens of guys like Avery say absolutely anything that might draw a reaction. The 30 seconds or so picked up on the mics last night included a death threat on Claude Giroux, the slur from Simmonds, and countless f-bombs. Imagine what it's like over 60 minutes, 82 games a year.

 

[seventieslord]

No, because of the context. Hockey has, historically, been played by white people, so it newsworthy to discuss non-white players. Any sort of "statistical anomaly" is always newsworthy for obvious reasons. As non-white players become more prevalent, and their precense less-trivial, it will start to become odd to create a "Favourite non-white player" thread.

If you make a "Favourite white player" thread, you are probably racist. The act itself is not racist in some absolute form, but you are pretty much advertising what's going on in your head. You made the thread for one of the following reasons:
a) You are a white supremacist.
b) You perceive a double-standard (ie. you don't understand/accept my paragraph above) and are being provocative (ie. trolling).

For the record, I didn't make that thread... I thought it was pretty racist.

 

[nutbar]

Anyway, last night's game was a well-timed refresher course on the reality of life on NHL ice. Dozens of guys like Avery say absolutely anything that might draw a reaction. The 30 seconds or so picked up on the mics last night included a death threat on Claude Giroux, the slur from Simmonds, and countless f-bombs. Imagine what it's like over 60 minutes, 82 games a year.

Indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MNA0_n32Hc

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

well yeah, that's a pretty obvious line.

the complexity of the examples i gave, that you have too many applications in front of you to even read all of them, which ones are you going to weed out on first glance alone, that was supposed to speak to how and why we stereotype. we make, as you say, "educated guesses" to save time or energy.

an example: 250 people applied for my job this year. those applications each came with three letters of recommendation, a 20+ page writing sample, two personal statements, on top of the resume and cover letter, and this is an industry with massive layoffs and reduced hours for administrative staff. so who is going to read all those applications? and, again, at what point does stereotyping, whether based on gender, race, country or city of origin, even age or something stupid like what font you use come into play?

but it was a rhetorical question, and not one intended necessarily to call you out, which was not the intention, but to point out that it's a slippery slope from the kind of innocent stereotyping we all do on a daily basis without even thinking about it and cases where clearly a line has been crossed.

(not to say, by the way, that i assume women are bad at math.)

In the case of your job, I would think the only fair thing to do is give it to the boss' brother-in-law.

 

[Killion]

For the record, I didn't make that thread... I thought it was pretty racist.

Fair enough. That being said, how was it that during WW2 & just post its conclusion we had, what many would term today a derisive name for the Schmidt/Dumart/Bauer line in Boston?. I wont repeat it here, as I innocently referenced it on another Board on hf and had a Mod alter it to "German"... Starts with a 'K' and ends with a 't' as you know. It just seems to me the pendulums swung too far into the PC zone over some really pretty petty terms. Even Wiki Ive noticed has deleted the term from their pages on "NHL Nicknames", Schmidts page etc.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Fair enough. That being said, how was it that during WW2 & just post its conclusion we had, what many would term today a derisive name for the Schmidt/Dumart/Bauer line in Boston?. I wont repeat it here, as I innocently referenced it on another Board on hf and had a Mod alter it to "German"... Starts with a 'K' and ends with a 't' as you know. It just seems to me the pendulums swung too far into the PC zone over some really pretty petty terms. Even Wiki Ive noticed has deleted the term from their pages on "NHL Nicknames", Schmidts page etc.

The Kraut Line is still listed on wikipedia List_of_ice_hockey_line_nicknames

I'm honestly shocked to hear that someone considered it a slur - we have some good German posters on the HOH board; I'd be very interested in what they think.

Edit: Apparently it started off as a slur for Germans during World War I, but I don't think it's considered offensive any longer?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Berlin/Kitchener

Fair enough. That being said, how was it that during WW2 & just post its conclusion we had, what many would term today a derisive name for the Schmidt/Dumart/Bauer line in Boston?. I wont repeat it here, as I innocently referenced it on another Board on hf and had a Mod alter it to "German"... Starts with a 'K' and ends with a 't' as you know. It just seems to me the pendulums swung too far into the PC zone over some really pretty petty terms. Even Wiki Ive noticed has deleted the term from their pages on "NHL Nicknames", Schmidts page etc.

Go back to WWI and the change from Berlin to Kitchener, Ontario, birthplace of the above linemates.

 

[Killion]

The Kraut Line is still listed on wikipedia List_of_ice_hockey_line_nicknames

I'm honestly shocked to hear that someone considered it a slur - we have some good German posters on the HOH board; I'd be very interested in what they think.

Edit: Apparently it started off as a slur for Germans during World War I, but I don't think it's considered offensive any longer?

I didnt see it on the Wiki page of "Nicknames"; your link included, at least from from these old eyes, & its certainly no longer on Milt Schmidts page. And yes, its an old WW1 term stemming from their usage of a certain garnish used on cabbage & sausage, ham, beets, all manner of tasty trench deli... Oh, and did I fail to mention I referred to Terry O'Reilly & most of the Bruins therafter as _____ Jaggers on another hf board?.

Go back to WWI and the change from Berlin to Kitchener, Ontario, birthplace of the above linemates.

Oh my God yes. And you had 100's of families from the area contemporaneously Anglicizing their names from things like Wintermeyer to Winterbottom & so forth.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I didnt see it on the Wiki page of "Nicknames"; your link included, at least from from these old eyes, & its certainly no longer on Milt Schmidts page. And yes, its an old WW1 term stemming from their usage of a certain garnish used on cabbage & sausage, ham, beets, all manner of tasty trench deli

I see it on Milt's wiki page right now. (Yes, I actually went to his page and hit ctrl-F searching for the term just to see for myself... heh).

 

[Killion]

I see it on Milt's wiki page right now. (Yes, I actually went to his page and hit ctrl-F searching for the term just to see for myself... heh).

Thats very odd.
Im in Canada & see no references to the term...
more conspiracy theories I need not.
Hands full chasing the Jersey Devil,
Mothman, Sasquatch & Alien Gold...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Filters

Thats very odd.
Im in Canada & see no references to the term...
more conspiracy theories I need not.
Hands full chasing the Jersey Devil,
Mothman, Sasquatch & Alien Gold...

Could be regional filtering. Different federal laws. Similar to how US TV programs and movies would get censored for the Canadian market years gone by.

BTW Memphre and Champ say hi to Sasquatch.

 

[Killion]

BTW Memphre and Champ say hi to Sasquatch.

Ogopogo. "Is that Weird or What?!" as Montrealer' William Shatner would exclaim.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Could be regional filtering. Different federal laws. Similar to how US TV programs and movies would get censored for the Canadian market years gone by.

Erm no, it's there. Under the "Playing" section: Schmidt and his childhood friends Bauer and Dumart would be teamed together in the NHL as well. They formed the famous Kraut Line, and were a strong and dependable line for the Bruins for most of the following fifteen seasons.

There's a page about the line itself, and each of Schmidt, Dumart and Bauer's pages mention it as well.

 

[Killion]

Erm no...There's a page about the line itself, and each of Schmidt, Dumart and Bauer's pages mention it as well.

"Erm, yes"... Not getting it in BC Iain. Deleted...
I dont think its offensive or derogatory, but apparently there
are those among us who "think it might be".

 

[JaysCyYoung]

I got the page no problem too. It's clearly there. And Wikipedia clearly isn't going to delete an article on an infamous sports trio that was legendary for its nickname due to political correctness gone awry anyways. It's part of history.

There's a significant article on the n-word too, if you were wondering.