A history of racist incidents (and false alarms) in hockey...

[Canadiens1958]

Developmental

If you expand to look at finalists as well, most teams that have made the final over the last decade have been loaded with Canadians. As you say, it's pretty much a rule of thumb that you need Canadian depth if you want to win the Cup.

Comes back to my comment that most of those tough, heart and soul type players that you need to win a Cup are Canadians. Cherry points this out constantly, and I'm sure it annoys his detractors to no end that they really can't refute it. The numbers back Don up.

But these are developmental issues.In Canada and the USA from the time they start their youth hockey career, the players learn the war of attrition mind set.

Win the conference or league, then the zone, then the region to go to the provincials followed by the nationals if the option is available. The European developmental model is not structured in a similar fashion. Big gap to bridge at the NHL level come playoff time. After playing a longer than usual regular season with greater travel demands the player is faced with the task of playing another two months at higher intensity. The Canadian and US players have been going thru the same routine for a minimum of 10 seasons.

 

[jcbio11]

If you expand to look at finalists as well, most teams that have made the final over the last decade have been loaded with Canadians. As you say, it's pretty much a rule of thumb that you need Canadian depth if you want to win the Cup.

Comes back to my comment that most of those tough, heart and soul type players that you need to win a Cup are Canadians. Cherry points this out constantly, and I'm sure it annoys his detractors to no end that they really can't refute it. The numbers back Don up.

I can refute this easily.

See, except for maybe Detroit (and to a much smaller extent Vancouver), there are no teams in the NHL without a significant number of canadian players. And when I say significant I really mean a large number. Considering that, unless that one team (Detroit) wins the Cup every other year, you're almost always going to have a cup winning team with a large number of Canadiens on the team. I am too lazy to look at exact numbers, but something like 50 percent of the NHL is canadian. It's not like you need a canadian depth, like you say, to win the cup. There are almost no teams without canadian depth.

And as for why why the NHL is 50 something percent canadien -
1. bottom pairing ds and third and fourth lines are absolutely dominated by canadiens, because well the league is in North America, plus all the coaches, GMs, executives are mostly canadian as well

 

[tarheelhockey]

Who cares how many third or fourth line bums were Canadian.

Actually I think that's a very important consideration. We've seen that Cup-winning rosters are more-Canadian that average, but Smythe winners have been fairly balanced of late.

Likewise, if you look at exactly WHO the Europeans and Americans are on recent Cup-winning rosters, they're not exactly a lightweight group. Chara and Thomas, to Hossa and Kane, to Malkin and Gonchar, and almost the whole Wings roster. Guys who carried their teams when the chips were down.

This leads me, somewhat unscientifically, to conclude that the more-Canadian element must exist in the lower lines. So the question boils down to this: are Canadians common on checking lines because they're born to be grinders, or because of systematic influences along the path to the NHL?

I'm inclined to believe the latter. Having seen a bit of KHL hockey, I'm quite convinced that the meanest and dirtiest Russians play in Russia. The same may be true of other leagues. It makes sense that a player who would be at the bottom of the totem pole in the NHL would rather stay home and make a living as a star in his own elite league.

If I'm right about that hunch, the Canadian element of Cup-winners boils down to a simple matter of geography. They're playing in North America, so the average-quality players are North American by default.

 

[jcbio11]

Actually I think that's a very important consideration. We've seen that Cup-winning rosters are more-Canadian that average, but Smythe winners have been fairly balanced of late.

Likewise, if you look at exactly WHO the Europeans and Americans are on recent Cup-winning rosters, they're not exactly a lightweight group. Chara and Thomas, to Hossa and Kane, to Malkin and Gonchar, and almost the whole Wings roster. Guys who carried their teams when the chips were down.

This leads me, somewhat unscientifically, to conclude that the more-Canadian element must exist in the lower lines. So the question boils down to this: are Canadians common on checking lines because they're born to be grinders, or because of systematic influences along the path to the NHL?

I'm inclined to believe the latter. Having seen a bit of KHL hockey, I'm quite convinced that the meanest and dirtiest Russians play in Russia. The same may be true of other leagues. It makes sense that a player who would be at the bottom of the totem pole in the NHL would rather stay home and make a living as a star in his own elite league.

If I'm right about that hunch, the Canadian element of Cup-winners boils down to a simple matter of geography. They're playing in North America, so the average-quality players are North American by default.

I absolutely agree.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

This leads me, somewhat unscientifically, to conclude that the more-Canadian element must exist in the lower lines. So the question boils down to this: are Canadians common on checking lines because they're born to be grinders, or because of systematic influences along the path to the NHL?

I'm inclined to say it's systemic. Importing a player from across the Atlantic has issues that are not present when drafting from local talent. The risks and costs are worthwhile if the player is a top-line type; but if you're choosing between a Canadian fourth-liner and a European one, why would you go through the additional effort and expense of the Euro player? It doesn't make economic sense to import this type of player, which is already plentiful in North America.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Archie Bunker fictional? Truth is so hard to tell, it sometimes needs fiction to make it plausible (Bacon). Bunker was a fictional character who mirrored the values of the larger American public at the time. Cherry and his values represented the larger Canadian public for a long time as well.

Yes, Archie Bunker is fictional. The point is that they are very different: Bunker was a character intended to highlight the ridiculousness of the opinions espoused by the character. Cherry's just spouting off those opinions himself. He's not a parody, at least not intentionally.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

All but two of those Cup champs were above the league average for Canadians per team. Some overwhelmingly. So that proves that the teams had depth with Canadians.

What it doesn't do is prove that that depth had anything to do with them winning (correlation /= causation). If it's so important how did the Pens and Wings win without it?

 

[Killion]

Unfortunately, this isnt the first incident of a Banana being thrown at a black player in the NHL. Racists & bigots are never original; Kevin Weekes in Montreal, during a playoff game against the Habs in 2002. Willie O'Ree, who mightve made it had he not been blind in one eye, put up with comments that would in most cases be met with extreme violence.

A player in the CFL (current) who dropped out of hockey along with a lot of his black friends did so as a result of racism. Larry Zeidel, of Jewish extraction, was poked, prodded, scoped. Jason Bailey, a prospect and Jewish within the Ducks organization sued for discrimination. His coach so far out of line that it leaves one slack jawed & stunned. Corroborated by team mates. As a Canadian & ex-player who saw it first hand, lived & breathed it, Im as appalled now as I was then when I first heard the stuff on the ice & in the dressing room.

Trash talk & name calling was for so long just a part of the game. As I said earlier, "in-bred". The "Canadian Way". Color me beyond disgusted.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

this thread went to a weird place...

I have counted all but 5 members of the Bruins as Canadian.

i have counted only 1 out of the team's 5 most important players as canadian: patrice bergeron.

on the other hand, who famously didn't have that extra something when it counted? canadian olympian roberto luongo. obviously there were others, some european, some canadian. but by my count, only two players on the canucks consistently performed in the finals like it was the finals, one was canadian (lapierre) and the other was danish (hansen).

But these are developmental issues.In Canada and the USA from the time they start their youth hockey career, the players learn the war of attrition mind set.

Win the conference or league, then the zone, then the region to go to the provincials followed by the nationals if the option is available. The European developmental model is not structured in a similar fashion. Big gap to bridge at the NHL level come playoff time. After playing a longer than usual regular season with greater travel demands the player is faced with the task of playing another two months at higher intensity. The Canadian and US players have been going thru the same routine for a minimum of 10 seasons.

this is really interesting. but can you say how the european development model is structured? shorter seasons? round-robin tournaments instead of elimination?

 

[cheerupmurray]

But these are developmental issues.In Canada and the USA from the time they start their youth hockey career, the players learn the war of attrition mind set.

Win the conference or league, then the zone, then the region to go to the provincials followed by the nationals if the option is available. The European developmental model is not structured in a similar fashion. Big gap to bridge at the NHL level come playoff time. After playing a longer than usual regular season with greater travel demands the player is faced with the task of playing another two months at higher intensity. The Canadian and US players have been going thru the same routine for a minimum of 10 seasons.

The seasons in Sweden is much shorter for example, there is a lot more emphasis is on training. Of course there is playoffs here too with elimination, both at junior and senior levels that is played with a higher level of intensity. But I can imagine that the longer season affects the younger europeans performance a bit, they aren't used to that kind of schedule.

More on topic, it's kind of interesting that in a country like Sweden where 15% of the population are immigrants, there are very few players with a immigrant background. Racism plays a part here too, it isn't easy being the only immigrant kid on the team, so those kids take up other sports like football or basket. Heres a pretty interesting article about it that you could try and google translate:

http://www.hockeysverige.se/article/12355687

 

[Canadiens1958]

Background

Unfortunately, this isnt the first incident of a Banana being thrown at a black player in the NHL. Racists & bigots are never original; Kevin Weekes in Montreal, during a playoff game against the Habs in 2002. Willie O'Ree, who mightve made it had he not been blind in one eye, put up with comments that would in most cases be met with extreme violence.

A player in the CFL (current) who dropped out of hockey along with a lot of his black friends did so as a result of racism. Larry Zeidel, of Jewish extraction, was poked, prodded, scoped. Jason Bailey, a prospect and Jewish within the Ducks organization sued for discrimination. His coach so far out of line that it leaves one slack jawed & stunned. Corroborated by team mates. As a Canadian & ex-player who saw it first hand, lived & breathed it, Im as appalled now as I was then when I first heard the stuff on the ice & in the dressing room.

Trash talk & name calling was for so long just a part of the game. As I said earlier, "in-bred". The "Canadian Way". Color me beyond disgusted.

Claude Vilgrain, Hilton Ruggles, Reggie Savage and some of the other black pioneers in the QMJHL faced similar "banana" experiences during their careers.

Tommy Kane, played youth hockey with Mario Lemieux and J.J Daigneault had similar experiences before concentrating on football"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Kane

Larry Zeidel is three generations removed. Different times. Politically correct terms were not part of the general culture. Team culture was different - the era where anything goes within the walls of the dressing meant team bonding but if an outsider directed the same phrase at one of your teammates then it mattered.

Your posts raises an interesting diachotomy. The role of the actual participants - players, coaches, administrators as opposed to the role of non-participants, parents, fans, commentators, etc.

Not sure if this merits a distinct thread.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Europe

this is really interesting. but can you say how the european development model is structured? shorter seasons? round-robin tournaments instead of elimination?

Club teams at various levels, fewer games with more practices. Posters from the various countries will provide details.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'm not trying to say America > Canada, but to me, it seems like this is a Canadian problem. More than half of these incidents are with teams in Canada. Also I don't understand why Canadian players hate on French Canadian players...YOU'RE ALL CANADIAN!!! Hockey has come a long way with the racism over the years, but they still have a long way to come as well to catch up to other sports.

You mean like blacks & whites are all Americans here in the States?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Immigrants

The seasons in Sweden is much shorter for example, there is a lot more emphasis is on training. Of course there is playoffs here too with elimination, both at junior and senior levels that is played with a higher level of intensity. But I can imagine that the longer season affects the younger europeans performance a bit, they aren't used to that kind of schedule.

More on topic, it's kind of interesting that in a country like Sweden where 15% of the population are immigrants, there are very few players with a immigrant background. Racism plays a part here too, it isn't easy being the only immigrant kid on the team, so those kids take up other sports like football or basket. Heres a pretty interesting article about it that you could try and google translate:

http://www.hockeysverige.se/article/12355687

Canada and the USA were built with immigration and hockey usually became popular with the youngsters born to the first generation of an immigrant group.

Example - in the greater Montreal area this season projections by certain minor hockey associations range between 75-85% of the Novice players being from recent immigrant backgrounds - Muslim. Hindu, Asain.

Getting back to the numbers for Sweden, 15% of the population reflects how many generations?

 

[Killion]

Not sure if this merits a distinct thread.

Anti-semitism was prevalent, all the vogue & fashion from the 20's through the 30's on both sides of the Atlantic. Its a string of Ugly that permeated the NHL from its earliest days; poured into the foundations. 19th Century morays... any & all origins open
to exploitation. Anger your opponent. Push the envelope & buttons.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I can refute this easily.

See, except for maybe Detroit (and to a much smaller extent Vancouver), there are no teams in the NHL without a significant number of canadian players. And when I say significant I really mean a large number. Considering that, unless that one team (Detroit) wins the Cup every other year, you're almost always going to have a cup winning team with a large number of Canadiens on the team. I am too lazy to look at exact numbers, but something like 50 percent of the NHL is canadian. It's not like you need a canadian depth, like you say, to win the cup. There are almost no teams without canadian depth.

Except the point is that these teams often have significantly more than 50% Canadian players.

And as for why why the NHL is 50 something percent canadien -
1. bottom pairing ds and third and fourth lines are absolutely dominated by canadiens, because well the league is in North America, plus all the coaches, GMs, executives are mostly canadian as well

I agree with this. It was mentioned a few posts up as well that guys who'd be third and fourth liners in the NHL might rather be stars back in Finland or Russia or wherever. But this still doesn't explain why the majority of the succesful teams have a higher portion of Canadians than average.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Buses

Except the point is that these teams often have significantly more than 50% Canadian players.



I agree with this. It was mentioned a few posts up as well that guys who'd be third and fourth liners in the NHL might rather be stars back in Finland or Russia or wherever. But this still doesn't explain why the majority of the succesful teams have a higher portion of Canadians than average.

The only options available to the Canadian candidates for 3-4th line roles or 5-8th defensemen is fill the required role, ride the bus in the AHL or ECHL or join the labour force at well below $500,000.00 a year.

As for the teams - just a question of finding the right parts for specific situations.

 

[Killion]

You mean like blacks & whites are all Americans here in the States?

Astute observation, point more than understood...

 

[amnesiac]

Just hearing about the Shane Doan BS makes me furious.

it may have gone too far, but it didnt change the fact that a racial was said whether it was Doan or not. If it was the N word towards a black player would you call it "BS" too?

I always found it sad most people immediately defended Doan and didnt really care about the comment in itself. Whether it may have been said by someone else or not, it still was said.

Don Cherry, I don't know, we all know how Don is by now. The name "Alpo" is actually a dog food though. And the % of players with visors were in favour of Euros and French players. So Don is right with those analogies, but out of line of course. I'm not sure comments like this or Kypreos' innocent comment like saying Lecavalier better "get a tan" if he ever wants to be compared to Jordan should ever be examined. There are far worse comments made out there. These ones I never feel are mean spirited and not intended to hurt.
.

Hes basically saying euros and francos are p*ssies and has obviously ALWAYS been prejudiced when talking about all hokcey players and nations. I think thats pretty bad given that hes a very big hockey personality and not just some random ignorants fans. He speaks out every week, gets huge ratings, and represents the NHL's oldest TV station. Most Canadians find him funny and like him for his patriotism, but imagine being a franco, euro, or Russian hearing about this guy's comments.

You can imagine how angered we'd be if he were say, an American, criticizing Canadian players and saying theyre soft, etc, etc

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I always found it sad most people immediately defended Doan and didnt really care about the comment in itself. Whether it may have been said by someone else or not, it still was said.

Probably because it really isn't that big a deal. It was blown out of proportion by politicians, regardless of who said it.

Hes basically saying euros and francos are p*ssies and has obviously ALWAYS been prejudiced when talking about all hokcey players and nations. I think thats pretty bad given that hes a very big hockey personality and not just some random ignorants fans. He speaks out every week, gets huge ratings, and represents the NHL's oldest TV station. Most Canadians find him funny and like him for his patriotism, but imagine being a franco, euro, or Russian hearing about this guy's comments.

Well, given that in European sports coverage ethnic stereotypes are basically accepted and used all the time, they should be used to it. It's never nice to be on the receiving end of ethnic stereotyping, but truth is that Europe generally is much less sensitive to it than North America.

 

[Killion]

You can imagine how angered we'd be if he were say, an American, criticizing Canadian players and saying theyre soft, etc, etc

You go too far. Even a Redneck living in a doublewide this side of Oshawa "gets" Cherry.
Canadians and Canada, hockey players, coaches & volunteers have zero in common with the idiot.

 

[8LX7psQ]

I myself love Cherry, sure he has overstepped the boundaries of political correctness. But keep in mind he has been on air for 31 years, since 1980. The stuff he said in the early 1990s or the 1980s are a different time. Could he say "Chicken Swede" nowadays? Not sure, but I don't remember him trying it lately.

I think Don's patriotism actually gets held against him a bit if you can believe it. Canadians for some reason are afraid to be proud about things. I think Don's idea of a Canadian player is that of pride. I don't think you are far off at all when you suggest there is an extra gear in the hearts of Canadian players, the Conn Smythe Trophy results are a reflection of this. So I think sometimes his emphasis on Canadians gets held against him and sometimes the fact that he's loyal to Canadians bothers people

LOL

No. No we are not. Canadians are not afraid to be proud of everything we can think at the time. Matched only by our self professed humility...

 

[8LX7psQ]

it may have gone too far, but it didnt change the fact that a racial was said whether it was Doan or not. If it was the N word towards a black player would you call it "BS" too?

I always found it sad most people immediately defended Doan and didnt really care about the comment in itself. Whether it may have been said by someone else or not, it still was said.

By racist you mean xenophobic ?

 

[Slapshooter]

Racism and xenophobia...this whole thread seems to run in cirlcles. Others make a clear distinction (and rightfully so) between the two things, but others seem to think they are basically the same.

I'm European born and I don't see Cherry racist at all. Sure, he's a bigot and nationalist and probably xenophobic, but it's more comic relief than anything else. Don Cherry is a kind of Bill O'Reilly of the Canadian hockey. A provocation and blatant nationalism is his brand, but it does not make him a racist.

Besides, those stereotypes and generalizations what Cherry is making about hockey players are more or less based on facts, especially from old school NHL perspective which Cherry clearly represents. There are also some tough, but less skilled "heart and soul" players in Europe, but they have a hard time making it to the NHL, since Canadian junior leagues and American minor leagues are full of Canadian stock of that particular breed type of players. While the gap is no longer nearly as wide as it once was, European junior hockey is still based more on a puck possession (the soccer influence) while Canadian junior hockey is more physically oriented. So it's a cultural thing, not a racial in a slightest way.

Other thing to consider. It is actually more or less accepted for a white guy to spread ethnic slurs and stereotypes about other white guys. It's not mature or good behaviour by any means, but it's not serious offense like the racism is. Just like nobody really cares when black people are using the n-word amongst themselves.

It don't see any proof that racist incidents are common in hockey, especially when considering that the hockey is still a very much "a white mans sport" - not only by it's reputation, but by the fact that vast majority of the professional hockey players in the world are white.

 

[Hasbro]

For example, black men are faster then white men right? Hold on, that racist! Right? Well........is it? Look at the fastest men in the world at the Olympics down the line. Then look at the men who are racing in the final 100m race. They come from Kenya for example, not Norway.

Not a one from either country. Kenya is actually renowned for producing distance runners.