A conversation about the C position

[Price is Wright]

Houle was no big loss and JC Tremblay was past his prime. Tardif, however, was a guy the Habs could have used. I would have loved to see him playing alongside Lafleur in his prime. And let's also not forget that one of the years that the Flyers won was the year that Dryden decided to go to law school rather than accept the Habs' "take it or leave it" contract offer.

Bunny got his chance to shine after being traded to the Leafs and he played like a back-up. And Mario Tremblay wasn't held back. He won his first Cup when he was barely old enough to shave. He cracked the toughest roster in pro hockey outside of Moscow a month after his 18th birthday. Doesn't sound like being held back to me.

Tremblay was often benched by Bowman when a lot of people thought he had superstar potential. He didn't but it was an old bar argument.

The JC/Tardif/Houle stuff was a common reply back in the day when someone said it was because Dryden wasn't there. I would often hear it wasn't Kenny but those three because Bunny could have won with them in the lineup. Bunny was the original Eller. He was held back, until he wasn't, and did nothing to step up.

I'm just remembering old arguments back when I was a fresh Islanders fan who first loved the Habs. I wanted an Islanders/Canadiens series when both were great so bad. I don't think we were ready in 77. We were ready in 79... but we choked to the Rangers so I guess we weren't. 1980 rolls around, we are definitely ready... No Dryden, Montreal loses in 7 to the North Stars. By the time we played again in 84 it meant nothing.

 

[Laurentide]

Tremblay was often benched by Bowman when a lot of people thought he had superstar potential. He didn't but it was an old bar argument.

The JC/Tardif/Houle stuff was a common reply back in the day when someone said it was because Dryden wasn't there. I would often hear it wasn't Kenny but those three because Bunny could have won with them in the lineup. Bunny was the original Eller. He was held back, until he wasn't, and did nothing to step up.

I'm just remembering old arguments back when I was a fresh Islanders fan who first loved the Habs. I wanted an Islanders/Canadiens series when both were great so bad. I don't think we were ready in 77. We were ready in 79... but we choked to the Rangers so I guess we weren't. 1980 rolls around, we are definitely ready... No Dryden, Montreal loses in 7 to the North Stars. By the time we played again in 84 it meant nothing.

The only reason your team won 4 straight Cups is because the Habs stupidly drafted "character" in the form of Mark Napier instead of "talent" in the form of Mike Bossy.

See? It didn't just start with Bergevin. The Habs have been doing this for decades.

 

[Schwang]

Unless we get Tavares and Dahlin, rebuild through the draft for many years (i.e. tank). It's the only way to avoid mediocrity, i.e. making the playoffs and getting bounced in the first or second round, which we're far from now, but that is your scenario's CEILING.

We have the wingers and we do have some good up and coming defencemen. Price returns to form and Weber comes back. You add Dahlin AND Tavares and you seriously don’t see them getting out of the first round?! You’re adding 2 world class players which will make everyone else that much better. Not to mention, guys like that play insane minutes. We’re definitely competing IF these things happen. This is 2018, no team is like the Oilers from the 80’s anymore.

 

[NotProkofievian]

We have the wingers and we do have some good up and coming defencemen. Price returns to form and Weber comes back. You add Dahlin AND Tavares and you seriously don’t see them getting out of the first round?! You’re adding 2 world class players which will make everyone else that much better. Not to mention, guys like that play insane minutes. We’re definitely competing IF these things happen. This is 2018, no team is like the Oilers from the 80’s anymore.

He said ''unless we get Dahlin and Tavares.''

 

[JeffreyLFC]

We have the wingers and we do have some good up and coming defencemen. Price returns to form and Weber comes back. You add Dahlin AND Tavares and you seriously don’t see them getting out of the first round?! You’re adding 2 world class players which will make everyone else that much better. Not to mention, guys like that play insane minutes. We’re definitely competing IF these things happen. This is 2018, no team is like the Oilers from the 80’s anymore.

I'll be honest... No... we are not winning the cup with Tavares and Dahlin..

All the teams competing for the cup are powerhouse. The habs don't have the firepower to compete. Of course anything can happen and the team would be improved greatly with Tavares/Dahlin but even with them they would still lack another top 6 center. This team is badly build with an aging core on (bad) contracts and young playets without much experience (Drouin/Lehk/Hudon/Scherbak).

They would have a hard time competing against the likes of Pittsburgh/Philadelphia/Winnipeg/Nashville/Boston

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Habs Icing]

All the questions can only be answered when we know which Carey Price we have. If he is a true #1 goalie, then we can be a team that makes the playoffs with a few additions, if not we cannot.

We can mitigate that problem by signing Niemi. Aunty Mimi was never an elite goalie as Price but he was an excellent goalie. This past season he proved he's back to form. So I'd sign him for two reasons.

One in case Price's chronic fatigue syndrome is not resolved and/or he continues to soil the bed. (On a side note I was diagnosed with fatigue syndrome about 25 years ago. I had it for about 4-5 months before seeing a doctor and he told me there was nothing I could do about it. I had to live with it. A couple months after the visit the symptoms disappeared and I never suffered from it again. So who knows)

Two. Even if Price returns to God status, I would use Niemi as a backup and I would give him about 35 games during the season. Just to keep Price fresh. Also, in case Price goes down with another injury ***cough Kreider****. I don't think Lindgren is ready and I suspect he'll never be ready.

 

[Habs Icing]

We give a ''contender'' one of our early 2nd round picks this year for their first next year. Let's say we get a taker, and they weren't quite as good as they thought they would be, and we end up with the 20th overall pick. We could then do another trade back. And around and around it goes. All of a sudden, we drafted 4 times in the first, and 5 times in the 2nd in 2 years, instead of twice in the first and 5 times in the second.

Signing three Tavares on UFA in one year is more of a possibility than the highlighted ever happening.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Signing three Tavares on UFA in one year is more of a possibility than the highlighted ever happening.

Happens all the time in the NFL. Their prospects are more ready, sure, but if a team wants a guy, they want him.

 

[Habs Icing]

if we can trade Pacioretty and receive a 1st high enough to take Veleno, we could be deep at the C position in a couple of years with Poehling, Veleno, Evans, Danault, and DLR. None of those guys are #1s, but you could definitely roll 4 lines that you could win with.

Win regular season games, yeah most definitely, but you're not going to win the cup with those centers.

 

[Habs Icing]

Bergevin is full of s***. That whole "attitude" crap is just that: crap. Just like "ka-RACK-ter" was. Just like "Pas d'excuses!" was. They're just deflections. If he can actually get his hands on a top 6 center like ROR he will take him no matter what his attitude issues might be. If anyone asks he'll just give them the same line he gave about Alzner: "I spoke with him and we both agree that he has to be better"

When he made the deal for Shaw, he talked about character but that's not really why he did it. In the end, Bergevin made that deal for the same reason he hired Lefebvre and Daigneault; the same reason he does anything: Because he knew them personally and/or had a prior relationship with them. That's it. If Bergevin had worked for Dallas instead of Chicago prior to the Habs he'd have traded those 2 picks to the Stars for Antoine Roussel and would have had no interest whatsoever in Shaw.

I don't want to let The Idiot off the hook but he isn't lying. I can see two, maybe three, players that had attitude problems. Drouin was definitely one and Captain Ready was the other. I'm not 100% certain about Price but let's throw him into the mix. We have three players with attitude problems. I'll give The Idiot that but what did he do during this year to resolve the problem? And what makes him think he has the answer now. I would say two of those players, Captain Ready and Price, were discouraged because they were fed up with The Idiot's lack of team building. And can you blame them? As for Drouin, it's just his karacter. He's a prima donna and that will never change.

 

[Habs Icing]

Happens all the time in the NFL. Their prospects are more ready, sure, but if a team wants a guy, they want him.

At what age are players going into the NFL draft? That draft is more of a sure thing. The NHL is more of a lottery. So in a lottery you try to hold onto the best odds. What you are suggesting has never happened in NHL.

 

[gillyguzzler]

I don't want to let The Idiot off the hook but he isn't lying. I can see two, maybe three, players that had attitude problems. Drouin was definitely one and Captain Ready was the other. I'm not 100% certain about Price but let's throw him into the mix. We have three players with attitude problems. I'll give The Idiot that but what did he do during this year to resolve the problem? And what makes him think he has the answer now. I would say two of those players, Captain Ready and Price, were discouraged because they were fed up with The Idiot's lack of team building. And can you blame them? As for Drouin, it's just his karacter. He's a prima donna and that will never change.

The idiot's exact translated words to Pierre Houde : "we had five, maybe six players with good attitudes". You see two, maybe three... the idiot sees fifteen to twenty.

 

[Habs Icing]

The idiot's exact translated words to Pierre Houde : "we had five, maybe six players with good attitudes". You see two, maybe three... the idiot sees fifteen to twenty.

I didn't hear him say that. What a ****ing a-hole. Talk about passing the buck.

 

[NotProkofievian]

At what age are players going into the NFL draft? That draft is more of a sure thing. The NHL is more of a lottery. So in a lottery you try to hold onto the best odds. What you are suggesting has never happened in NHL.

I know that. What I don't know is if it's ever been tried before. We should try it.

 

[Habs Icing]

I know that. What I don't know is if it's ever been tried before. We should try it.

The problem is not us trying it. The problem is getting another GM to agree to such craziness. What GM is going to give his #1 pick next year for our # 2 pick this year?

 

[gillyguzzler]

I didn't hear him say that. What a ****ing a-hole. Talk about passing the buck.

He did... one on one interview with Houde after the press conference. He said they had terrible attitudes since training camp.

 

[NotProkofievian]

The problem is not us trying it. The problem is getting another GM to agree to such craziness. What GM is going to give his #1 pick next year for our # 2 pick this year?

Well, first of all it's a 35. That's not that different from a 28+ pick. That small difference is compensated in the fact that they get a player now, and we get nothing for a whole year, and they can put all kinds of conditions on that pick. Obviously they'd top 15 protect it, but in that case we'd have to wait 2 years to make the pick, whereas they have a whole extra early 2nd right now.

 

[gillyguzzler]

https://www.rds.ca/videos/hockey/ln...-face-on-doit-se-relever-maintenant-3.1270356

His frenglish is ... well, most can understand. Five, maybe six players delivered and the rest were not onboard, not committed. Later, he says that the leaders did not deliver.

 

[NotProkofievian]

The problem is not us trying it. The problem is getting another GM to agree to such craziness. What GM is going to give his #1 pick next year for our # 2 pick this year?

Actually, I've thought of a more solid argument. The previous argument was just about time value of picks, which is pretty debatable even if I think it's correct.

However, what isn't really debatable is that scout lists vary wildly. We often hear timmins say ''we didn't make it past the first page of our list'' after the entire draft is done. It's totally possible that another GM could value a player available at 35 as the 18th or 20th best player in the draft. In that case they would consider it a more or less even swap of picks.

 

[Schwang]

He said ''unless we get Dahlin and Tavares.''

No. Actually he added drafting high and well over the next few years as well or we will be fighting to be a lottery team. Not exact words, but that's the gist.

 

[Schwang]

I'll be honest... No... we are not winning the cup with Tavares and Dahlin..

All the teams competing for the cup are powerhouse. The habs don't have the firepower to compete. Of course anything can happen and the team would be improved greatly with Tavares/Dahlin but even with them they would still lack another top 6 center. This team is badly build with an aging core on (bad) contracts and young playets without much experience (Drouin/Lehk/Hudon/Scherbak).

They would have a hard time competing against the likes of Pittsburgh/Philadelphia/Winnipeg/Nashville/Boston

Just my 2 cents.

Adding Dahlin and Tavares, Imagine the improved output from patches, chucky, drouin, Gally, leks, weber. Plus price back to form. You still think that doesn't match up with the other teams? Besides, I wasn't saying win a cup, the argument was that we wouldn't be a lottery team exiting in the first round. I know everyone is pissed this year, but we're imaging adding 2 world class players with some others returning to form.

 

[Scintillating10]

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Bergevin gets his things in order and he finally gets us that big centerman that we've always wanted. His name is Ryan O'Reilly, and we had to trade our first, and Poehling for him. And then Bergevin goes out and he signs Stastny.

Where do you think this gets us? If you would like him to do such a thing, tell us why. Let's have a conversation.

You gave up a 18 year old blue chipper, and 19 year old solid hockey player and took yourself out of top tier of UFA market. This draft is front loaded with elite defensemen. Even the second Swede is a cross between a Karlson and Leetch. Dobson is my favorite, he is very underrated.