A conversation about the C position

[417]

Galchenyuk was just below a ppg before being injured last year, this year when we were desperate for a top line center they played everyone else there but him, they’d rather try to turn Drouin into a center than try Chucky there again. We saw superstar in the making De la rose centering chuckys line but not Galchenyuk, do you honestly believe this team has Galchenyuks best interests at heart? I think at this point its more about not being proven wrong, than doing what may actually benefit the habs, because there is no good reason for 27 to not be playing center.

So you think the team is purposely trying to sabotage Galchenyuk's career?

For what purpose exactly?

And yes, I do believe the team has his best interest at heart, I mean, why wouldn't they?

How does the opposite benefit them?

 

[Bring Bak Damphousse]

The question was, though, ''where do you think this gets us?''

Thoughts?

Gets us in the playoffs, but it wouldnt make us contenders. Maybe if were adding Tavares and O’Reilly, manage to draft Dahlin and Bergevin manages to shore up our D along with Price getting back to form, but that would take a miracle, I dont think MB’s got it in him.

 

[Habs100]

If we’re tanking for many years why would Tavares even consider us? Not saying he’s coming, but he won’t even think of us in that case.

?
I said if we don't get Tavares (which we won't), then we should tank for many years instead of trying to build a team that makes the playoffs (which will inevitably at the cost of our future. given the current state of the roster)

 

[NotProkofievian]

If the Habs were able to trade for ROR...I'd be comfortable giving Drouin another shot at C.

1yr at the position under his belt and with much better insulation with ROR, I think we'd see better performances.

But I also understand you've closed the chapter on Drouin.

''Ideally, he's a winger.''

To answer the question though;

I think it makes us much better team, it would give us way more balance. Still needs some work though.

It certainly doesn't make us Cup contenders though, but expecting a team to go from 4th worst to Cup contender in one offseason isn't very realistic.

It probably does make us better. But to your second point, it certainly doesn't make us cup contenders. But does it facilitate the road to us being cup contenders? I can live with not going from 4th worst to cup contenders in a season (obviously, I'm a tanker). What I want is the road to be relatively clear. I want a plan. Being that ROR and Stastny doesn't make us contenders, how do we move from non-contention to contention, and is trading, say, a top 5 pick in a deep draft coherent with that strategy?

Doesn't this just put us right back where we were? In the show, but not good enough, and drafting 25th ad nauseam?

 

[Bring Bak Damphousse]

So you think the team is purposely trying to sabotage Galchenyuk's career?

For what purpose exactly?

Dunno man but I’d love to hear some alternate theories, team was hot garbage this year, no chance of making the playoffs, and Galchenyuks stapled to the wing. So I’m not sure what to tell you, seems reasonable to expect him to get another shot doesnt it?

 

[yianik]

When I hear ROR and Stastny I think of an attempt to emulate the Bruins. Yeah, the Bruins could challenge for the Cup. Bergeron was on a PPG this year but isnt a 70 -80 point guy.

Unfortunately I dont see it. Their two top wingers are better than ours in terms of production anyway, and their D is head and shoulders above ours. Usually our goalie is better.

So without a high scoring C like a Tavares and a top pair LD ( going nuts when I keep hearing about a top 4D man, we DONT need that ), we just are not doing anything. Could use a better 2C than Danault as well ( though I think he has done pretty admirably ).

So ROR and Stastny, makes us a play off cusp team and keeps us away from picking up some good high picks over the next couple of years.

The Parade just keeps getting pushed off into the distance.

 

[Price is Wright]

Adding Ryan O'Reilly is like getting 2009-2010 Tomas Plekanec back.

Ask yourself, is that enough?

 

[Ozmodiar]

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Bergevin gets his things in order and he finally gets us that big centerman that we've always wanted. His name is Ryan O'Reilly, and we had to trade our first, and Poehling for him. And then Bergevin goes out and he signs Stastny.

Where do you think this gets us? If you would like him to do such a thing, tell us why. Let's have a conversation.

How far did the Blues go with 70 point Schenn and 53 point Stastny as their top 2 centers?

The Blues had the foresight to know it wasn't good enough and looked toward the future.

Edit: i don't mind the two 2a centers model - no true #1, but 2 good #2's - but not while the rest of the team is a mess. The D needs a complete rebuild.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Gets us in the playoffs, but it wouldnt make us contenders. Maybe if were adding Tavares and O’Reilly, manage to draft Dahlin and Bergevin manages to shore up our D along with Price getting back to form, but that would take a miracle, I dont think MB’s got it in him.

No one does. If we get ROR, our first is going back, 100%.

But let's add up the cap. Dahlin is 900,000, Tavares is likely 11 mill plus, ROR is 7.5, so thats 18.4 million added to the cap. But we already have a projected cap hit of 61 million. So the cap would have to go up by 4 million, Danault wouldn't be re-signed (he doesn't accept the same cap hit), and that D better work otherwise we're up shit creek and right against the cap.

 

[417]

''Ideally, he's a winger.''

Things aren't always ideal...

It probably does make us better. But to your second point, it certainly doesn't make us cup contenders. But does it facilitate the road to us being cup contenders?
I can live with not going from 4th worst to cup contenders in a season (obviously, I'm a tanker). What I want is the road to be relatively clear. I want a plan. Being that ROR and Stastny doesn't make us contenders, how do we move from non-contention to contention, and is trading, say, a top 5 pick in a deep draft coherent with that strategy?

Good post...agreed that I want a plan, and under this scenario you proposed, I think it at least gives us a base.

Doesn't this just put us right back where we were? In the show, but not good enough, and drafting 25th ad nauseam?

ROR and Stastsny may not be top end #1C's on their own...but imo, they'd represent the best 1-2 punch the Habs have had since...

I don't know...maybe prime Koivu/Plekanec?

 

[NotProkofievian]

So you think the team is purposely trying to sabotage Galchenyuk's career?

For what purpose exactly?

And yes, I do believe the team has his best interest at heart, I mean, why wouldn't they?

How does the opposite benefit them?

Don't derail. Both of you. We've got a good thing going here.

 

[JianYang]

That is the thing with having Scherbak, Hudon, Lehkonen, Reilly number going up is that they are becoming RFAs and, good numbers means more money, more money means we will have to trade a couple and replace them with what? We have not a single propects able to make an impact on the 2nd or 3rd line the following year. A top 2 offensive dmen will need to be acquire if we dont get Dahlin. Byron is set to become UFA.Now unless you are able to trade Shaw, Alzner, Schlemko and even then it might not work with the salary cap.

I don't want to elaborate too much because this is a pipe dream scenario, but I think the back end does not need like a true #1 puck moving D in this scenario.... More like a competent top 4 assuming Weber is healthy.

 

[G0bias]

O'Reilly's a 60pt player with Eichel - take 10pts off that once he comes here.

We'd be about as good, maybe somewhat better, than we were last year with both Radu and Markov. 1st round exit against BO, PITT, TB, WSH, CLB.

 

[417]

Dunno man but I’d love to hear some alternate theories, team was hot garbage this year, no chance of making the playoffs, and Galchenyuks stapled to the wing. So I’m not sure what to tell you, seems reasonable to expect him to get another shot doesnt it?

No need for any wild alternate theories...they just don't see him as a center.

In their opinion, using Galchenyuk as a center this year made as much sense as using Pacioretty as one.

He's a winger. Agree with it or not, they were at least consistent with that this year.

Galchenyuk can be a contributor at either position, he's proven that.

 

[mariolemieux66]

No one does. If we get ROR, our first is going back, 100%.

But let's add up the cap. Dahlin is 900,000, Tavares is likely 11 mill plus, ROR is 7.5, so thats 18.4 million added to the cap. But we already have a projected cap hit of 61 million. So the cap would have to go up by 4 million, Danault wouldn't be re-signed (he doesn't accept the same cap hit), and that D better work otherwise we're up **** creek and right against the cap.

We aren't beating Boston, Tampa Bay, Winnipeg, Nashville with this team. Probably not beating Pittsburgh, Florida, Toronto, Vegas and New Jersey either.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Things aren't always ideal...

No sense in aiming for something you don't like anyways.

ROR and Stastsny may not be top end #1C's on their own...but imo, they'd represent the best 1-2 punch the Habs have had since...

I don't know...maybe prime Koivu/Plekanec?

They would be, but that wasn't enough either and I think we know enough to say that being good, but not quite good enough makes becoming good enough very difficult. I mean, we had those guys, and then we had one of the greatest drafts in recent memory, and all it got us was a conference finals. Granted the well ran dry for a few years after that, but that's what happens when you trade 2nds for Dominic Moore and firsts for Alex Tanguay and draft oafs like Tinordi.

 

[417]

No sense in aiming for something you don't like anyways.



They would be, but that wasn't enough either and I think we know enough to say that being good, but not quite good enough makes becoming good enough very difficult. I mean, we had those guys, and then we had one of the greatest drafts in recent memory, and all it got us was a conference finals. Granted the well ran dry for a few years after that, but that's what happens when you trade 2nds for Dominic Moore and firsts for Alex Tanguay and draft oafs like Tinordi.

Agreed...but like I said, it's a start, solid footing.

The rest of it is contingent on making other similar building-type moves.

But again, I think ROR and Stastny is getting redundant.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

So you think the team is purposely trying to sabotage Galchenyuk's career?

For what purpose exactly?

How do you even come out with that conclusion with what the poster said?

There's a lot more legitimate theories out there other than your theory of purposely sabotaging Galchenyuk's career. Plain incompetence is one of them. Favoritism towards french canadians for PR reason is another one.

Let's be honest.. Galchenyuk's development as a center or player in general was a big fail from the organization.

Twice so far in his career Galchenyuk saw the organization giving the top 6 C role to players that doesn't really deserve it over him.

The faith, opportunity and leach that was given to Drouin this season was a clear double standards to me. Galchenyuk NEVER had the chance to play and develop his game as a center for so many consecutive games. I still have no idea what Drouin does/did better than Galchenyuk as a center to deserve that role given him on a silver platter. Center Galchenyuk in 16-17>>>>>>>> Center Drouin in 17-18 and for some reason, after the 16-17 season, it was clear for both CJ and MB that Galchenyuk is not a center.. yet they were convinced that Drouin was our next 1st C in the golf tournament and kept him there all season despite doing all the things they criticized Galchenyuk for.

 

[Habs100]

Dunno man but I’d love to hear some alternate theories, team was hot garbage this year, no chance of making the playoffs, and Galchenyuks stapled to the wing. So I’m not sure what to tell you, seems reasonable to expect him to get another shot doesnt it?

Here's an alternate theory: Bergevin doesn't know what he's doing. He refuses to allow his coach to try him at center because in his mind, he's 100% sure Galchenyuk isn't a center.

 

[417]

How do you even come out with that conclusion with what the poster said?

There's a lot more legitimate theories out there other than your theory of purposely sabotaging Galchenyuk's career. Plain incompetence is one of them. Favoritism towards french canadians for PR reason is another one.

Let's be honest.. Galchenyuk's development as a center or player in general was a big fail from the organization.

Twice so far in his career Galchenyuk saw the organization giving the top 6 C role to players that doesn't really deserve it over him.

The faith, opportunity and leach that was given to Drouin this season was a clear double standards to me. Galchenyuk NEVER had the chance to play and develop his game as a center for so many consecutive games. I still have no idea what Drouin does/did better than Galchenyuk as a center to deserve that role given him on a silver platter. Center Galchenyuk in 16-17>>>>>>>> Center Drouin in 17-18 and for some reason, after the 16-17 season, it was clear for both CJ and MB that Galchenyuk is not a center.. yet they were convinced that Drouin was our next 1st C in the golf tournament and kept him there all season despite doing all the things they criticized Galchenyuk for.

I didn't reach that conclusion...hence the question marks (?) At the end of my questions.

It was not an affirmation, rather it was a question based on what he wrote.

Now out of respect for the thread starter - let's remain on topic now that that's cleared up.

 

[LaP]

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Bergevin gets his things in order and he finally gets us that big centerman that we've always wanted. His name is Ryan O'Reilly, and we had to trade our first, and Poehling for him. And then Bergevin goes out and he signs Stastny.

Where do you think this gets us? If you would like him to do such a thing, tell us why. Let's have a conversation.

Not far (1st round exit maybe 2nd round) and this would be terrible. ROR is not worth a top 5 pick and a good prospect on top of it.

The center line would still be average. Better but not strong. Buffalo is losing with ROR and Eichel ... We would still be missing a LHD. And this is if Mete blossom into a top 4 if not then we are missing two. It would still be an aging team with a very short window. Without the first pick and with Poehling traded our prospects pool would be abyssal and by far the worst in the whole league. So no help would be coming from that pool in the next 5 years (outside of maybe one 2nd pairing dman). With an aging team this would be a bad combo.

Two things could kick start this team this summer :

1) Drafting first overall. Dahlin would more than likely solve the problems we have with this defense. He would make a good first pairing with Weber for the next 3-4 years and Mete would be fine with Petry. Then when Weber would get old Dahlin would be ready to carry the likes of Juulsen, Fleury or Brooks on a first pairing and Mete would make a fine 2nd pairing with Weber. There's the possibility Dahlin will flop but this is unlikely to happen.

2) Signing Tavares. Tavares is not the be all end all guy. He's no Crosby or McJesus. But he's a damn good 1st line center who carried to stardom some pretty *** average wingers over his career. He'll be overpaid but if you want to win you got to be ready to overpay your star players and cut the corners with 1 million guys like Byron, Hudon and Lehkonen in your bottom 6. That's how it is with a salary cap. Tavares will only be 28 next season so he got some years left. I would say at least 5-6 years very easily and probably more if you are not unlucky. He is imo a step better than ROR without any doubt and ROR is overpaid himself anyway.

Then the defense would be set for many years unless Dahlin would flop. We got good young wingers like Drouin, AG and Gallagher. We would still be missing a 2nd line center but Poehling could develop into one and we got lot of 2nd rounders and Patch available this summer to make something happens.

Outside of those two things happening we should rebuild and not try to fix things up with a plan B. You don't trade a top 5 pick for a plan B.

 

[habsgirl5000]

Where do you think this gets us?

absolutely nowhere......the defense still sucks

we likely finish 9-10th in the conference

 

[Price is Wright]

I have yet to hear an option to get the team to become a Cup contender for the next two seasons that isn't a fairy tale.

Draft Dahlin, sign Tavares, the defence is still putrid. Price, Weber, Shaw, and Alzner make almost $30M combined and are either injury prone or coming off injuries or busted goods. You have to hope Dahlin transitions to NHL defence immediately and can play against top six offence on the road immediately and doesn't need a transition period like first overall Aaron Ekblad needed. You still have a team shy of going to the net, one of the weakest coaching staffs in the league, one of the weakest development systems in the league, and an expiring captain.

So even with the best case scenario the club is still a huge question mark.

Burn it down. Rebuild.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Agreed...but like I said, it's a start, solid footing.

The rest of it is contingent on making other similar building-type moves.

But again, I think ROR and Stastny is getting redundant.

I'll advance a different plan, and let's see which you and others like better.

We don't do any of this. We trade Pacioretty for a 1st and a good, but not world beating prospect. If NYI would like to trade up for our pick (assuming it's not Dahlin or Svechnikov), we trade back. If not, we stay where the lottery puts us. We're terrible next year, a year in which we likely have a better chance at a 1st line center with our top pick. Depending on how our young D are progressing, we get rid of Petry, we get rid of Byron for 2019 picks. Reassess in 2 drafts.

 

[JianYang]

How far did the Blues go with 70 point Schenn and 53 point Stastny as their top 2 centers?

The Blues had the foresight to know it wasn't good enough and looked toward the future.

Edit: i don't mind the two 2a centers model - no true #1, but 2 good #2's - but not while the rest of the team is a mess. The D needs a complete rebuild.

I agree with what you're saying. You just don't win without that true elite #1 C, but the blues are also missing that competent goalie. That's another thing that a cup winning team needs.