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ZippityDooDa

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Dec 22, 2018
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It is a joke but I mean, theres truth to it. We judge alot on appearance, it's natural. Every gm will naturally see more value in a big bodied, square jawed center, despite what points indicate. Every stat could litearlly be identical. It's why gudbranson still has a job in the nhl.

All Toronto forwards offer a similar offensive game. Leafs are one dimensional (its why they'll lose to certain teams everytime) And they aren't dominant enough at that one facet, or have a top player in the world in that department to rely solely on one style of game, which is soft skilled goal scoring. nor do they have enough to overshadow their defense.

Crosby/Malkin were 1/2 in the league in their primes and both players could carry lines with ease while doing it. You have to be the best if you want to build a team like they did, which is what leafs have done in a sense

That's what frustrates me so much about Matthews. He has all the tools AND the toolbox but just has no god damn snarl to his game, no second gear and for some reason he's like physiological clone of glassman Joffrey Lupul. It's like he was raised on his mothers tit until he was 14 or something. Get pissed off once in a while dude, you're the biggest guy on the team and the most talented! That's what's so mind-numbing and he's gunna want 10+mil ffs? Righhhhttt...

He just oozes potential but I'm not sure we're ever going to see what he could have been. He needs to join a Toronto fight club or something and stop playing like a balerina. I take that back, he probably knows if he throws one punch his arm will fly off and he'll be out for the next 3 years...
 
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MatthiasRhieland

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Jan 8, 2019
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If that was the case, then a deal would have been made.

The reality is that Pesce was probably the best the Leafs were being offered for Nylander, which is laughable. And even if they were to make that trade, its not like signing Tavares would have stopped them from doing so...

The whole argument that the Leafs spent money on Tavares and not D is just stupid and pointless because there was no D to spend money on. Which was my point from the very beginning.

no it wouldn't. dubas was not shopping the player. he said time and time again he had 0 plans to move this player. media reported that countless teams were calling about nylander but that dubas was not interested. when you have this opinion. you've decided you are not going to move them unless an overpayment. he was not looking for a fair trade for a different position.

there was countless reports to support what im claiming, as his own words as well.

and this all goes back to what i was saying earlier, teams dont like to make trades. teams by nature tend to get better if youre coming out of a rebuild, torontos core is young. by nature they will improve. trading opens up risk, gm's are hesitant to make moves that are not necessary, it risks job security. they want to keep their job. dubas can keep his job for quite sometime by just keeping his core and trying to make small moves here and there and developing players. gm's dont run hockey teams like fans, they do it to ensure they have a job for the foreseeable future and their resume. all you need to do is win most games. and as long as you win more games than you lose, always have a chance and you keep your job ;)

Nylander most certainly could have fetched what i claimed if they were looking to make trades that included their core pieces. i believe what dubas said was 'nylander will be here as long as im a gm' or something along those lines
 
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ZippityDooDa

Registered User
Dec 22, 2018
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It is a joke but I mean, theres truth to it. We judge alot on appearance, it's natural. Every gm will naturally see more value in a big bodied, square jawed center, despite what points indicate. Every stat could litearlly be identical. It's why gudbranson still has a job in the nhl.

All Toronto forwards offer a similar offensive game. Leafs are one dimensional (its why they'll lose to certain teams everytime) And they aren't dominant enough at that one facet, or have a top player in the world in that department to rely solely on one style of game, which is soft skilled goal scoring. nor do they have enough to overshadow their defense.

Crosby/Malkin were 1/2 in the league in their primes and both players could carry lines with ease while doing it. You have to have the best players in the game if you want to build a team like they did (pure offense - no grit or defense), which is what leafs have done in a sense

Except no one on the team compares to those two players. They possess it all, along with incredible toughness, grit and some physicality. People can call Crosby a baby-back b*tch whiner all they want but he'd kill any of our players in a fight when he spazzes out and he's extremely tough to play against. Malkin is a ghetto Russian with a major temper too and it goes without saying that these guys are rare world class talents and Pittsburg just so happened to be tanking at the right time. We haven't been as lucky. We thought we were, but Matthews is not a Crosby/Malkin and I don't think he will ever reach that level sadly.
 

MatthiasRhieland

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Yep crosby can battle through checks well. And malkin is a power forward who bulldozes to the net. on top of being top offensive players in the world
 
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ZippityDooDa

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Dec 22, 2018
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Yep crosby can battle through checks well. And malkin is a power forward who bulldozes to the net. on top of being top offensive players in the world

Only player we have comparable to them is Tavares who is like Crosby-lite. If Matthews would step it up he could be our Malkin-lite. Wish we could have full flavor :(
 

MatthiasRhieland

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Jan 8, 2019
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Only player we have comparable to them is Tavares who is like Crosby-lite. If Matthews would step it up he could be our Malkin-lite. Wish we could have full flavor :(

as of today, he's more comparable to prime kessel , a triggerman who can get you 40 goals anywhere in the lineup and marner and tavares are supposed to be the crosby/malkin.

you can see why its falling short

that was the only team that succeeded with purely offensive forward core with a d core that consists of a highly offensive d man + meh.
 

SprDaVE

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Sep 20, 2008
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At least you admit this is a hot take and not a rational opinion.

Some of you are way too emotional about this. Take a deep breath. It'll be okay.

Matthews is one of the best players in the whole league. Plenty of superstars went through goalless droughts and yes, people were saying they are soft too. Can some of you stop already with this garbage? It's like it's the first season of hockey you've ever watched.
 
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ZippityDooDa

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Dec 22, 2018
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as of today, he's more comparable to prime kessel , a triggerman who can get you 40 goals anywhere in the lineup and marner and tavares are supposed to be the crosby/malkin.

you can see why its falling short

that was the only team that succeeded with purely offensive forward core with a d core that consists of a highly offensive d man + meh.

Kessel couldn't play the heavy/board play that Tavares is pretty decent at though but yea I agree about the goal output/sniping. I just think Tavares is a much more rounded player but slower than Kessel and not as deadly of a wrister. Kessel's such a perimeter player, Tavares goes straight at you and engages imo. I think Kessel may have the edge on passing too, underrated.
 

TheGroceryStick

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Jan 19, 2009
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The only mistakes the leafs have made is not trading JVR, Bozak, Leo last trade deadline and Gardiner this past offseason for straight picks and prospects. Just imagine the buying power we would have if we had capitalized on those opportunities.
100 %

We didn't need the JvR free rental

We shoulda at the very least sold and bought at the same time...

Same will happen with Gardiner.
But he's a steamy pile now, so no one would pay an even "ok" price.
 

MatthiasRhieland

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Jan 8, 2019
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At least you admit this is a hot take and not a rational opinion.

Some of you are way too emotional about this. Take a deep breath. It'll be okay.

I think criticisms are always overlooked when things aren't so bad. Alot of criticisms when teams are doing well overall are quite valid. Toronto is at a stage where fans expect a cup out of this core, only a few teams become true contenders during this Toronto window (out of 32 teams) and Toronto fans want one of those to be them. Its very hard to be one of those teams and these critiques are warranted.

when you look at how many are trying and falling short due to several reasons, i think most fanbases are pretty accurate with their critiques, so by stats, it's likely that the part of this fanbase that sees issues are probably correct?

Unless you are suggesting that there are issues but just have blind faith even though it doesn't appear like the problems are being fixed.. yet?
 

ZippityDooDa

Registered User
Dec 22, 2018
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At least you admit this is a hot take and not a rational opinion.

Some of you are way too emotional about this. Take a deep breath. It'll be okay.

Matthews is one of the best players in the whole league. Plenty of superstars went through goalless droughts and yes, people were saying they are soft too. Can some of you stop already with this garbage? It's like it's the first season of hockey you've ever watched.

There's still lots of rational in there. Sorry friendo, it's not complete satire....I didn't get emotional at all. It's reality.
 
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MatthiasRhieland

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Jan 8, 2019
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Kessel couldn't play the heavy/board play that Tavares is pretty decent at though but yea I agree about the goal output/sniping. I just think Tavares is a much more rounded player but slower than Kessel and not as deadly of a wrister. Kessel's such a perimeter player, Tavares goes straight at you and engages imo. I think Kessel may have the edge on passing too, underrated.

I was referring to Matthews and comparing them based on them being goal scorers and compared them due to them both being trigger men who dont play on the 1st line and still net you x amount of goals
 

SprDaVE

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Sep 20, 2008
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There's still lots of rational in there. Sorry friendo, it's not complete satire....I didn't get emotional at all. It's reality.

Can you point me to it? Is it the part about trading Matthews just because he isn't McDavid or Crosby? And then just ranting that we're not this or that? Marner being soft? This is a rushed rebuild? I read the whole thing and literally nothing was rationale there.
 
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ZippityDooDa

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Dec 22, 2018
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I think criticisms are always overlooked when things aren't so bad. Alot of criticisms when teams are doing well overall are quite valid. Toronto is at a stage where fans expect a cup out of this core, only a few teams become true contenders during this Toronto window (out of 32 teams) and Toronto fans want one of those to be them. Its very hard to be one of those teams and these critiques are warranted.

when you look at how many are trying and falling short due to several reasons, i think most fanbases are pretty accurate with their critiques, so by stats, it's likely that the part of this fanbase that sees issues are probably correct?

Lots of it comes from the fact that we've waited so long and been served a platter of sh*t far too often. We're getting sick of the same ol' rinse and repeat bullsh*t. But yes it takes a lot of variables to fall into the right places in order to get anywhere close to a championship, we just have sh*t luck so often. It's also anoying when we see things coming together like it's finally going to be something special and worth witnessing, just to have to fall apart. I just see too many flaws and I don't see a team that's built to win it all, even with years of experience and tweaks. I see the core being flawed. But that's just my useless opinion.
 
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FerrisRox

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Sep 17, 2003
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The whole argument that the Leafs spent money on Tavares and not D is just stupid and pointless because there was no D to spend money on. Which was my point from the very beginning.

Except you act like that argument only exists for last summer when the Leafs have spent that money on Tavares for the next several years. What is stupid and pointless is pretending that there would be no D to spend money on this summer, or next summer, or the summer after that, or the summer after that...
 

SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
52,053
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I think criticisms are always overlooked when things aren't so bad. Alot of criticisms when teams are doing well overall are quite valid. Toronto is at a stage where fans expect a cup out of this core, only a few teams become true contenders during this Toronto window (out of 32 teams) and Toronto fans want one of those to be them. Its very hard to be one of those teams and these critiques are warranted.

when you look at how many are trying and falling short due to several reasons, i think most fanbases are pretty accurate with their critiques, so by stats, it's likely that the part of this fanbase that sees issues are probably correct?

There are plenty of things wrong with how the team is playing. It's emotinal comments about trading the best Leafs center we've had in the past 2 decades not even 22 years old yet, and then going off on crap that doesn't matter.
 
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The Iceman

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Sep 22, 2007
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The big problem is we've once again overrated our players abilities. None of them are "superstar" types, not even Tavares and yet he's paid like one although he’s still the closest we have. Matthews has the potential but injuries are getting the best of him and he's a big-bodied marshmallow unfortunately. Nylander's stats were padded and consequently he was paid way too much, now has no reason to bust his ass and is just as soft as Matthews with less talent. Marner is great but undersized, soft and going to take up a huge chunk of cap. Our farm team is basically back to bare-bones talent-wise as well. We have no players really close to a Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kane, Doughty, Datsyuk, Toews, Marchand, Chara, Niedermayer, you name it. Tavares might be the only one close to one of those playoff warriors but there’s no other big name talents coming unless we make a big trade or tank again. It really is Tavares and the Islanders all over again but at least he takes pride in putting on his jersey now..

A huge mistake management made was grabbing Andersen at the time they did when they should have rode a few more years in the basement playing the likes of Johnny Bernier and the grinders, collecting assets and slowly developing their top prospects. Instead they've rushed things and have to dole out giant inflated contracts, creating massively unrealistic expectations for these players to uphold within the Toronto pressure-cooker. The fan-base would have been fine waiting another few years in the basement, but no, apparently we had to jump to win-now mode because we got the shiny #1 pick and a few players managed 60 points. This is a rushed rebuild all over again with a bit of bad luck to make things worse.

Too much of a Euro/OHL-vibe with this current team as well. You don't win a playoff round with a team that avoids physicality. Compare this team to past perennial cup-contending teams and you'll see we're far off from any of them and more akin to the San Jose choke artists of the recent decade albeit much softer. We drafted too many of the same types of players and the ones that should be the most dominant, are the most likely to get pushed around and stifled in the only times it matters. It's hard to see any realistic upgrades that would fully address this systematic problem either. Trading Nylander, Kadri and/or possibly Matthews would be a start while they still have any semblance of value but I mentioned realistic and this is not especially in Matthews case. Coaching change? Can't see that happening unless we really hit rock-bottom which we won't because we're setup again to be good enough to hover around that terrible void where we don't make the playoffs and don't draft high-end talent, like the previous two decades.

It’s a shame but it goes along with the Leafs curse. Get the #1 overall pick, get a player who looks like a sure superstar bet, turns out he’s incredibly soft, timid and injury prone. Suffers multiple injuries, exposing those weaknesses even more and slowly begins to show he’s clearly been overrated and has a much lower ceiling than anyone had anticipated. He’s nowhere near McDavid or even Crosby and it’s funny he was ever mentioned in the same breath as the Oilers superstar. Classical Leafs sensationalizing. When will we ever get to draft #1 again? To be fair, Edmonton's in a worse situation but I’d much rather have a player of McDavid’s ilk on board but their management is the definition of incompetence.

“Hot take central!”, don’t give a damn who thinks I’m trolling or being hyperbolic. I’m being realistic. You’re delusional if you think this team will win a cup with this core. Even when we were scoring at a torrid pace you could see there were major flaws in our game that would eventually be exposed and we haven’t even hit the playoffs yet, if we even make them. Not mentioning the embarrassingly pathetic defense either.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it’s the Leafs, we’re used to it.
But I’m full of **** and crazy right? Let’s just watch this play out and y’all can come back and roast me for this if they win a playoff round..nahhh


i got this far.
The big problem is we've once again overrated our players abilities. None of them are "superstar" types, not even Tavares and yet he's paid like one
 
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MatthiasRhieland

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Jan 8, 2019
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There are plenty of things wrong with how the team is playing. It's emotinal comments about trading the best Leafs center we've had in the past 2 decades not even 22 years old yet, and then going off on crap that doesn't matter.

If theres a problem with a core, or a player, the sooner you fix the issue, the better. Players value drop. It is POSSIBLE that nylanders value is never as high as it was when he was 21/22, its possible that matthews value is never higher than it is now, same goes for marner. only gms let players get to a point that their trade value decreases league wide before they trade due to the fact its better to double down on your pick and hope they rebound vs admitting you chose wrong.

matthews right now can fetch just about anybody in the league. his value is based on him being the 2nd best player in the league. there are gms who still believe that, most fans still do. its highly likely that in 5 years, he will infact not be top 5 in scoring consistently. and isntead like most centers, who are in and out occasionally. making his value relatively the same as any 1c.

you are suggesting be patient because you most likely believe this player is top in the league, some do not. and when a players value is that high and he could very well finish third in ppg on his team. it makes sense to use him to address the issues with the team. marners value is lower than what hes bringing.
 
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Trapper

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Nov 21, 2013
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There are plenty of things wrong with how the team is playing. It's emotinal comments about trading the best Leafs center we've had in the past 2 decades not even 22 years old yet, and then going off on crap that doesn't matter.
Management is causing the problem.
As I've said, I think Matthews is hurt.
He's fine to play, he can't absorb the pounding down low right now (or over a full season/playoffs).
Matthews needs a Ferland/Gallagher on his wings. Players that absorb the physical damage while providing skill.
 
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SprDaVE

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Sep 20, 2008
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If theres a problem with a core, or a player, the sooner you fix the issue, the better. Players value drop. It is POSSIBLE that nylanders value is never as high as it was when he was 21/22, its possible that matthews value is never higher than it is now, same goes for marner. only gms let players get to a point that their trade value decreases league wide before they trade due to the fact its better to double down on your pick and hope they rebound vs admitting you chose wrong.

matthews right now can fetch just about anybody in the league. his value is based on him being the 2nd best player in the league. there are gms who still believe that, most fans still do. its highly likely that in 5 years, he will infact not be top 5 in scoring consistently. and isntead like most centers, who are in and out occasionally. making his value relatively the same as any 1c.

So your idea is to trade Matthews to what purpose? Marner as well? Is that what you're proposing? You're all over the place and you are not making any sense to be perfectly honest.

Yes -- great player fetch good returns. That's a great opinion to uphold?
 
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MatthiasRhieland

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Jan 8, 2019
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So your idea is to trade Matthews to what purpose? Marner as well? Is that what you're proposing? You're all over the place and you are not making any sense to be perfectly honest.

Yes -- great player fetch good returns. That's a great opinion to uphold?

I edited the post. to add

"you are suggesting be patient because you most likely believe this player is top in the league, some do not. and when a players value is that high and he could very well finish third in ppg on his team. it makes sense to use him to address the issues with the team. marners value is lower than what hes bringing"

No I am suggesting that the idea of trading him isn't absurd, especially if you dont value him at where he is ranked among gm's currently. and its still believed that he is up there in the top players in the league. some think as high as 2nd to only mcdavid.

You think the idea to trade a real good player is absurd, despite the many valid points made regarding the one dimensional core that doesnt match cup teams cores. I am simply disputing that.
 

ZippityDooDa

Registered User
Dec 22, 2018
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Can you point me to it? Is it the part about trading Matthews just because he isn't McDavid or Crosby? And then just ranting that we're not this or that? Marner being soft? This is a rushed rebuild? I read the whole thing and literally nothing was rationale there.

Lmao right...sorry bud if you can't see this team for what it is, nothing I say is going to convince you. I didn't say trade Matthews btw, it was a hypothetical statement that I mentioned was unrealistic. But you know..when this crap continues, leading us to either miss the playoffs or be knocked out in round 1 with ease, I'll remember to mention to you how irrational my statements were ;)
 
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SprDaVE

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Sep 20, 2008
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Lmao right...sorry bud if you can't see this team for what it is, nothing I say is going to convince you. I didn't say trade Matthews btw, it was a hypothetical statement that I mentioned was unrealistic. But you know..when this crap continues, leading us to either miss the playoffs or be knocked out in round 1 with ease, I'll remember to mention to you how irrational my statements were ;)

What? All I asked was what was the great points you brought up. I read the whole thing and the only I got of it was pure emotional hot takes without any substance. I'm supposed to guess what is hypothetical statements and was is not I guess?

Sounds good to me.
 
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SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
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I edited the post. to add

"you are suggesting be patient because you most likely believe this player is top in the league, some do not. and when a players value is that high and he could very well finish third in ppg on his team. it makes sense to use him to address the issues with the team. marners value is lower than what hes bringing"

No I am suggesting that the idea of trading him isn't absurd, especially if you dont value him at where he is ranked among gm's currently. and its still believed that he is up there in the top players in the league. some think as high as 2nd to only mcdavid.

You think the idea to trade a real good player is absurd, despite the many valid points made regarding the one dimensional core. I am simply disputing that.

It is absurd to even think about trading him. Yes. There are probably other qualities I can say to describe how absurd it is but I'll leave it at that.
 
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