A big hot steaming pile of take!

[ZippityDooDa]

The big problem is we've once again overrated our players abilities. None of them are "superstar" types, not even Tavares and yet he's paid like one although he’s still the closest we have. Matthews has the potential but injuries are getting the best of him and he's a big-bodied marshmallow unfortunately. Nylander's stats were padded and consequently he was paid way too much, now has no reason to bust his ass and is just as soft as Matthews with less talent. Marner is great but undersized, soft and going to take up a huge chunk of cap. Our farm team is basically back to bare-bones talent-wise as well. We have no players really close to a Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kane, Doughty, Datsyuk, Toews, Marchand, Chara, Niedermayer, you name it. Tavares might be the only one close to one of those playoff warriors but there’s no other big name talents coming unless we make a big trade or tank again. It really is Tavares and the Islanders all over again but at least he takes pride in putting on his jersey now..

A huge mistake management made was grabbing Andersen at the time they did when they should have rode a few more years in the basement playing the likes of Johnny Bernier and the grinders, collecting assets and slowly developing their top prospects. Instead they've rushed things and have to dole out giant inflated contracts, creating massively unrealistic expectations for these players to uphold within the Toronto pressure-cooker. The fan-base would have been fine waiting another few years in the basement, but no, apparently we had to jump to win-now mode because we got the shiny #1 pick and a few players managed 60 points. This is a rushed rebuild all over again with a bit of bad luck to make things worse.

Too much of a Euro/OHL-vibe with this current team as well. You don't win a playoff round with a team that avoids physicality. Compare this team to past perennial cup-contending teams and you'll see we're far off from any of them and more akin to the San Jose choke artists of the recent decade albeit much softer. We drafted too many of the same types of players and the ones that should be the most dominant, are the most likely to get pushed around and stifled in the only times it matters. It's hard to see any realistic upgrades that would fully address this systematic problem either. Trading Nylander, Kadri and/or possibly Matthews would be a start while they still have any semblance of value but I mentioned realistic and this is not especially in Matthews case. Coaching change? Can't see that happening unless we really hit rock-bottom which we won't because we're setup again to be good enough to hover around that terrible void where we don't make the playoffs and don't draft high-end talent, like the previous two decades.

It’s a shame but it goes along with the Leafs curse. Get the #1 overall pick, get a player who looks like a sure superstar bet, turns out he’s incredibly soft, timid and injury prone. Suffers multiple injuries, exposing those weaknesses even more and slowly begins to show he’s clearly been overrated and has a much lower ceiling than anyone had anticipated. He’s nowhere near McDavid or even Crosby and it’s funny he was ever mentioned in the same breath as the Oilers superstar. Classical Leafs sensationalizing. When will we ever get to draft #1 again? To be fair, Edmonton's in a worse situation but I’d much rather have a player of McDavid’s ilk on board but their management is the definition of incompetence.

“Hot take central!”, don’t give a damn who thinks I’m trolling or being hyperbolic. I’m being realistic. You’re delusional if you think this team will win a cup with this core. Even when we were scoring at a torrid pace you could see there were major flaws in our game that would eventually be exposed and we haven’t even hit the playoffs yet, if we even make them. Not mentioning the embarrassingly pathetic defense either.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it’s the Leafs, we’re used to it.
But I’m full of shit and crazy right? Let’s just watch this play out and y’all can come back and roast me for this if they win a playoff round..nahhh

Click to read more...

 

[MatthiasRhieland]

Pretty dead on. Sadly the issue is that when players are infact good, you keep onto them, similar to the oilers. GMs are people. They care about their jobs, they dont get the axe for not making moves that COULD have improved the team alot but you do get fired for trading somebody greta and losing a trade. You will see the team try to keep onto everybody despite whether they're overpaid, despite whether theyre good but not good enough. They wont finish low enough to be bad enough to acquire real talent. It's sort of up to getting what you can in that timeframe you rebuild. It has to be the core you win with for the most part. And if its not, you'll see some playoff round wins here and there but never win it all. The team isn't good enough. Tavares wont be better than he is now, the d isn't close to good enough. matthews will always be looked at lik emore than he is due to his square head and being north american. nylander was a screw up but not much option, can't trade him because he wants too much. why? because you have more risk to lose your job. you overpay a guy who is good, its much better than losing a guy who becomes great. they make decisions based on their job security. and they only look within the next 5 years

leafs won the lottery. luck. tavares from toronto. luck.

lets just imagine if those things didn't happen. the supporting cast is a joke. theres no simmonds, kesler, etc types. i know toronto media tried to hype up kadri up as that player.. but i mean, thats what they did with reimer now we see both are/were overrated.. in the moment, fans dont often see and it becomes even more obvious when you have the pieces that are truly that good, now that toronto has a good goalie, you see reimer was not that. you get a mackinnon and you see that matthews is not this player. you get a hossa/kesler, etc - you see kadri isnt' even close to this

and it doesn't appear like toronto can afford those players, or willing to trade their core pieces , which is what it'd take because there aren't the pieces otherwise to acquire such players. and we can believe in free agency but fact is, free agents rarely fix teams issues and alot of teams are bidding for these players. and the window is now so..

 

[Soundwave]

I would be patient. No maybe there isn't a Crosby or McDavid type player, but the Blackhawks won 3 Cups without a player exactly like that. The Kings won 2 designed a different way.

Of course there are serious pros with having a Crosby/McDavid, but that doesn't mean that's the only way to be successful.

I think some of what is happening is the Leafs were ahead of the curve in terms of playing that more audacious offensive style and it really caught a lot of teams off-guard ... 2 years ago even a year ago, even early in the season.

What's happening now is I think the entire league is starting to get that this is a new high octane era and we're seeing more scoring all around the league. So maybe some of this is less of the Leafs regressing and more of the rest of the league starting to get the memo on playing offensive attack hockey is the new name of the game.

 

[MatthiasRhieland]

I would be patient. No maybe there isn't a Crosby or McDavid type player, but the Blackhawks won 3 Cups without a player exactly like that. The Kings won 2 designed a different way.

Of course there are serious pros with having a Crosby/McDavid, but that doesn't mean that's the only way to be successful.

I think some of what is happening is the Leafs were ahead of the curve in terms of playing that more audacious offensive style and it really caught a lot of teams off-guard ... 2 years ago even a year ago, even early in the season.

What's happening now is I think the entire league is starting to get that this is a new high octane era and we're seeing more scoring all around the league. So maybe some of this is less of the Leafs regressing and more of the rest of the league starting to get the memo on playing offensive attack hockey is the new name of the game.

Right, you can probably get away with this if your core is made up of defensive beast centers like hossa and toews. but when your core is all offfensive minded guys who bring nothing else?

and your other examples are also based around defense....

you win by being the best at whatever your team is based around. if you want to be an offensive powerhouse and win that way, you do it with top offensive guys. if you want to win with defensive core, you have the best defensive core, etc

 

[Soundwave]

Right, you can probably get away with this if your core is made up of defensive beast centers like hossa and toews. but when your core is all offfensive minded guys who bring nothing else?

Maybe that can work in this new era, I don't know. And sometimes it takes a while to figure it out ... look at how long it took the Caps to finally get it right with Ovechkin.

 

[DavePoulin4PM]

This team is too fragile. It’s been obvious for awhile now. Dubas’ goal isn’t to win a Stanley Cup. He just wants to put out a competitive team, that is as undersized and soft as possible. He is trying to prove that he’s the smartest guy in the room. This team is built for the regular season.

All vitriol should be directed towards Shanny and Dubas. This is Shannys 5th year and fans want to give him a pass. This team is going no where.

 

[MatthiasRhieland]

Maybe that can work in this new era, I don't know. And sometimes it takes a while to figure it out ... look at how long it took the Caps to finally get it right with Ovechkin.

Washington is a decent example of what Toronto could be with patience and figuring out how to build a team EVENTUALLY. I'll give you that. Even though it does sort of relate to my earlier post because I mean, ovechkin is literally by far the best at goal scoring. And the criticisms are that this team isn't even the best at what it does. It provides some hope. But i mean, that was a while in the making. so at best, the team is a ways away and well, with the salaries that these players are going to get, have already gotten, is it going to be easy?

This team may need to take a step backwards here before it can even begin to get better as well

I would say the team is at a 7.5 now, it will need to goto 7.. then slowly slowly try to figure it out over the next 5 years, building a supporting cast takes sometime, nevermind finding somebody to include into the core that is defensive/has edge

 

[Soundwave]

Washington is a decent example of what Toronto could be with patience and figuring out how to build a team EVENTUALLY. I'll give you that. It provides some hope. But i mean, that was a while in the making. so at best, the team is a ways away and well, with the salaries that these players are going to get, have already gotten, is it going to be easy?

Well it's never easy I guess.

The nature of the salary cap is simply that you really get maybe 5 or 6 really good skaters and if you're good maybe a good goalie that hopefully isn't too expensive.

The days of being able to build some loaded mini-dream team of players just doesn't work anymore because of a salary cap.

 

[MatthiasRhieland]

I think the OP's rant comes more about expectations.

I mean, does the team have a chance to make alot of changes and correct the path and compete with some of these pieces, yes sure, as do most teams. But i think people expect more and also when most of the other views are that things are good now or real close, it makes somebody react like this. and he has a right to these views considering the salaries these players are obtaining right now.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Steaming hot.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

The only mistakes the leafs have made is not trading JVR, Bozak, Leo last trade deadline and Gardiner this past offseason for straight picks and prospects. Just imagine the buying power we would have if we had capitalized on those opportunities.

 

[Deuce Awesome]

Every NHL team goes through slumps. We are currently in one and we are still playing .500 hockey.

We have top 6 depth that I haven't seen since Gilmour and Clark and are only a few MINOR pieces away from being with the best. Not major pieces, minor. We haven't had that kind of "first world problem" in years.

Ive said all along that we need to get tougher. Toughness is much easier to aquire than skill.

If I were in charge of things, I would go after two or three stay at home defenceman. Never mind this offence first approach. A slightly faster version of Polak times 3. Guys who will punish you for being in front of the net. Exchange them with Hainsey/Marincin/whoever else is slumping

We need a guy who can thump as well as score for the top 6, and Philly has just that guy in Wayne Simmonds. Exchange him with Hyman, trade a first plus whatever to get him.

A fourth line who can change the tempo of the game. They won't score much but will keep the puck in the other end and lay out some hits. This could be built for very little.

I doubt that mr big glasses and Babcock would go for any of this though.

Just my humble opinion on things. All things pass and this will as well. Before you know it was will be 7-2-1 again and this will all be behind us.

 

[MatthiasRhieland]

Every NHL team goes through slumps. We are currently in one and we are still playing .500 hockey.

still playing .500 hockey? Theyre 3-7 in the last 10

 

[Peasy]

It all comes down to a team with a good offense and a bad defense dropping close to 10 million on a center. That’s it really.

Yeah because there was a #1 RHD that wanted to sign with the Leafs but we decided to sign the center instead right...

 

[MatthiasRhieland]

Yeah because there was a #1 RHD that wanted to sign with the Leafs but we decided to sign the center instead right...

You can make trades.

 

[Peasy]

You can make trades.

Okay, and what is your proposed trade?

The fact is that this team would potentially be out of the playoffs right now if they didn't have Tavares.

 

[ZippityDooDa]

Pretty dead on. Sadly the issue is that when players are infact good, you keep onto them, similar to the oilers. GMs are people. They care about their jobs, they dont get the axe for not making moves that COULD have improved the team alot but you do get fired for trading somebody greta and losing a trade. You will see the team try to keep onto everybody despite whether they're overpaid, despite whether theyre good but not good enough. They wont finish low enough to be bad enough to acquire real talent. It's sort of up to getting what you can in that timeframe you rebuild. It has to be the core you win with for the most part. And if its not, you'll see some playoff round wins here and there but never win it all. The team isn't good enough. Tavares wont be better than he is now, the d isn't close to good enough. matthews will always be looked at lik emore than he is due to his square head and being north american. nylander was a screw up but not much option, can't trade him because he wants too much. why? because you have more risk to lose your job. you overpay a guy who is good, its much better than losing a guy who becomes great. they make decisions based on their job security. and they only look within the next 5 years

leafs won the lottery. luck. tavares from toronto. luck.

lets just imagine if those things didn't happen. the supporting cast is a joke. theres no simmonds, kesler, etc types. i know toronto media tried to hype up kadri up as that player.. but i mean, thats what they did with reimer now we see both are/were overrated.. in the moment, fans dont often see and it becomes even more obvious when you have the pieces that are truly that good, now that toronto has a good goalie, you see reimer was not that. you get a mackinnon and you see that matthews is not this player. you get a hossa/kesler, etc - you see kadri isnt' even close to this

and it doesn't appear like toronto can afford those players, or willing to trade their core pieces , which is what it'd take because there aren't the pieces otherwise to acquire such players. and we can believe in free agency but fact is, free agents rarely fix teams issues and alot of teams are bidding for these players. and the window is now so..

matthews will always be looked at lik emore than he is due to his square head

I don't know why but I had a good chuckle at this line. Good points though!

I just feel it's a "they're not who we thought they were" kind of thing. I really hope they can prove us wrong but truly believe they should have done a legitimate long-term tank to get the prospects they needed and this would have simultaneously kept contract costs down at a much more reasonable rate.

For the apparent "rebuild" we did, look at our damn defense. We have one good player on the blueline, he really isn't even that good at defending. I know we have a supposed "powerhouse" offense but it wasn't that strong before stealing Tavares away and even now with our so-called 3-elite centers, it's anemic far too often which is a unsettling trend.

I know it takes a lot of luck but I still think they forced things when they sold the idea they were going to finally do it the right way...2-3 more years of tanking would have gotten us a few more blue-chip prospects in whatever areas of weakness. I think we got unlucky with a few players we drafted as well and possibly prioritized in the wrong areas. We also let some assets carelessly slip through the cracks.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda though. Guess we're stuck with this, hopefully they turn it around or they're going to lose a lot of viewers (but continue to make all their money). We're not watching for snazzy plays and regular season routs, we want a damn cup already or at the very least some playoff competitiveness. I don't think thats much to ask for when they've had their thumb up their asses for the last two decades at least or maybe it is..

 

[MatthiasRhieland]

Okay, and what is your proposed trade?

The fact is that this team would potentially be out of the playoffs right now if they didn't have Tavares.

I am not looking to get into this debate, I don't believe most fans are familiar enough with the players I suggest, nor do I feel like falling into a new debate about the fact these players are better than nylander.

But nylander was a back to back 60 pt player. His stock while he was holding out was actually quite high. Just about every team in the nhl would have given up quality for this player at that time. If you do not think the leafs could acquire a very good d man or a d man with even higher potential, then there's no sake of debating at all because this should be pretty obvious.

 

[moon111]

In the last two play-offs, during the season, last night, etc. There's goals being scored on Toronto's doorstep. Watching the replay, you could hear the announcer talking like Andersen was struggling. But the Leafs don't have one element of Roman Polak. Yes he had his flaws in other areas, but in front of the net was a no-fly zone. The Leaf defense for most part have other priorities.

While Gretzky scored 208 points, yes there was Coffey with 121 points, Huddy with 51. But then you start to see Lowe with 25, Randy Gregg with 23, Don Cackon - 20, Lee Fogolin with 17.
The Leafs have Hainsey with 16, Dermott with 14... a little more half-way through the season. Reilly and Gardiner...that's really enough. Hainsey needs to either be the shut-down man or go.
Dermott, might be the heir apparent to Gardiner, but he should have to apprentice in a more defensive roll like Kapanen did instead of leading the team for worst +/-. The other's need to
put their man pants on.

 

[Peasy]

I am not looking to get into this debate, I don't believe most fans are familiar enough with the players I suggest, nor do I feel like falling into a new debate about the fact these players are better than nylander.

But nylander was a back to back 60 pt player. His stock while he was holding out was actually quite high. Just about every team in the nhl would have given up quality for this player at that time. If you do not think the leafs could acquire a very good d man or a d man with even higher potential, then there's no sake of debating at all because this should be pretty obvious.

If that was the case, then a deal would have been made.

The reality is that Pesce was probably the best the Leafs were being offered for Nylander, which is laughable. And even if they were to make that trade, its not like signing Tavares would have stopped them from doing so...

The whole argument that the Leafs spent money on Tavares and not D is just stupid and pointless because there was no D to spend money on. Which was my point from the very beginning.

 

[horner]

The only mistakes the leafs have made is not trading JVR, Bozak, Leo last trade deadline and Gardiner this past offseason for straight picks and prospects. Just imagine the buying power we would have if we had capitalized on those opportunities.

Yes I agree.
We had the same issues last yr.
I thought we jumped the gun last yr when we weren't ready.
I think management got caught up in the excitement of making the playoffs.
We should have taken a step back and cured what was wrong with this team.

 

[New User Name]

The only mistakes the leafs have made is not trading JVR, Bozak, Leo last trade deadline and Gardiner this past offseason for straight picks and prospects. Just imagine the buying power we would have if we had capitalized on those opportunities.

Can't emphasize this enough. No one thought the Leafs were going far in the playoffs last season.
Most knew we weren't re-signing JVR, Bozak and Leo, so what does management do.....let them walk for absolutely nothing. Horrible asset management.

We should trade Jake at the deadline, but we won't. We'll probably overpay for another player and go out in the first round.

 

[MatthiasRhieland]

matthews will always be looked at lik emore than he is due to his square head

I don't know why but I had a good chuckle at this line. Good points though!

I just feel it's a "they're not who we thought they were" kind of thing. I really hope they can prove us wrong but truly believe they should have done a legitimate long-term tank to get the prospects they needed and this would have simultaneously kept contract costs down at a much more reasonable rate.

For the apparent "rebuild" we did, look at our damn defense. We have one good player on the blueline, he really isn't even that good at defending. I know we have a supposed "powerhouse" offense but it wasn't that strong before stealing Tavares away and even now with our so-called 3-elite centers, it's anemic far too often which is a unsettling trend.

I know it takes a lot of luck but I still think they forced things when they sold the idea they were going to finally do it the right way...2-3 more years of tanking would have gotten us a few more blue-chip prospects in whatever areas of weakness. I think we got unlucky with a few players we drafted as well and possibly prioritized in the wrong areas. We also let some assets carelessly slip through the cracks.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda though. Guess we're stuck with this, hopefully they turn it around or they're going to lose a lot of viewers (but continue to make all their money). We're not watching for snazzy plays and regular season routs, we want a damn cup already or at the very least some playoff competitiveness. I don't think thats much to ask for when they've had their thumb up their asses for the last two decades at least or maybe it is..

It is a joke but I mean, theres truth to it. We judge alot on appearance, it's natural. Every gm will naturally see more value in a big bodied, square jawed center, despite what points indicate. Every stat could litearlly be identical. It's why gudbranson still has a job in the nhl.

All Toronto forwards offer a similar offensive game. Leafs are one dimensional (its why they'll lose to certain teams everytime) And they aren't dominant enough at that one facet, or have a top player in the world in that department to rely solely on one style of game, which is soft skilled goal scoring. nor do they have enough to overshadow their defense.

Crosby/Malkin were 1/2 in the league in their primes and both players could carry lines with ease while doing it. You have to have the best players in the game if you want to build a team like they did (pure offense - no grit or defense), which is what leafs have done in a sense

 

[Spirit of 67]

They're being outworked game in and game out.

Why do you think Babs talks about hard work and "if the will doesn't match the skill" etc.

If they aren't willing to work hard enough, they won't win. These guys are pros. They're paid good money to close the skill gap. Skill is no longer good enough to get by.

 

[ZippityDooDa]

Yes I agree.
We had the same issues last yr.
I thought we jumped the gun last yr when we weren't ready.
I think management got caught up in the excitement of making the playoffs.
We should have taken a step back and cured what was wrong with this team.

The cancer has begun to metastasis. See you guys in 10 years for the next supposed rebuild hype show. Kidding.