MBH
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Uh, he said SINCE Hossa.
He didn't compare him to Hossa.
Not a very honest assessment of the "take"
Proposal: A.Athanasiou (DET) for M.Granlund (NSH)
- Thread starter Ghost of Ethan Hunt
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Uh, he said SINCE Hossa.
He didn't compare him to Hossa.
Not a very honest assessment of the "take"
Okay, then try this.
Franzen, Mantha, Larkin, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Tatar.
Which one of those players are you trusting LESS as a goal scorer. I’ll hang up and listen.
MBH
Players Play
You seemed to have misunderstood the post, it being those names being a better goal scorer than AA.
AA is either worth the #1 overall or the #50 overall for Red Wing fans. His value falls in the middle.
No. That’s the crux of the discussion, bud.
If AA is “the best goal scorer since Hossa” that means he’s better than every name I listed. Which he’s not. And I don’t think it’s close.
I would rather rely on ANY of those players as goal scorers over Athanasiou, and it’s not really much of a discussion. Athanasiou is not a traditional goal scorer, and has required a substantial amount of odd man and breakaway chances.
I know you read my post, you know what my point is. Don’t play dumb.
Snuggs
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I mean Trouba(argueably a number 1) was traded for a 1st and Pionk. I think if Wings want to they can get something nice if they're willing to pony up and all's I stated was that AA could be used as a trade chip for that.
AA + a 1st in 2021 even could get a lot of teams attention,(IMO). Maybe not.
Given how we've started this year so far in the hole, I think it's just dumb to trade away this years 1st round pick when we're in the hunt for Alexis Lafreniere who can prolly step in and play right away at LW. He'd fit nicely imo next to Larkin/Mantha or provide depth scoring on the second line if you didn't wanna break Bertuzzi from that line(though I think he'll be fine playing with Fabbri).
Just my thoughts, could be dumb, might be reasonable... IDK.
Gniwder
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As crazy as it seems, Granlund is really too old for our rebuild. By the time we are good again his expiration date will have pasted and he will be in sharp decline. If we are moving AA (which I am fine with) it needs to be for someone who will help us for a slightly longer window.
Snuggs
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Yeah well Dominic Turgeon has out played him so... Idk. I can't see things he's doing to earn a spot. I agree Helm/Nielsen can take a hike but.... Not sure Veleno is ready. Kid is 19... It's not a real knock on him to say he's not really ready/developed yet for the NHL. There's nothing currently suggesting he'd play well on a 2nd line with AA.(not saying never) and It doesn't hurt to let him enjoy success at the AHL level for a year before making the jump when he's 21. 2021-2022.*IMO*
5 points in 16 games isn't/aren't what I think people expected... people complain about Zadina... Who's got 11 points in 16 as well. The 1st is accepted and the 2nd isn't for... whatever reason.
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Honestly, playing with Athanasiou at this point would be possibly the worst thing for Veleno’s development. I’m more concerned about Veleno having a strong development more than I’m inclined to care about who centers Athanasiou in the next year.
FireBird71
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Turgeon is definitely getting a look in Detroit this year. I'm not sure what his contract status is but he's played real well thus far.
Veleno is finding his groove. He can be invisible at times but considering the responsibility Simon is giving him, that's not necessarily a bad thing. He's already earned a spot on pk1. He just needs to keep getting stronger
Snuggs
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Thats fine, you can disagree, makes me really wonder what you're watching... I'm not saying Turgeon is a staple or blue chip prospect either. I was throwing out the comparison and how far off I think Veleno is ready to step into the NHL and be productive on a 2nd line.
I don't think it helps him to throw him up to the NHL level yet is my point, I don't think he's ready. Of coarse I still have faith he'll develop and big time faith he'll be a better player than Turgeon by the end of this year but for now... Just calling it how I see it. Veleno is adjusting to the speed, and physicality. It takes a moment. He was playing pretty much all Kids last year.
Snuggs
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Yeah that's basically my point too. If you want a quality C for him(AA) next season it isn't unreasonable to just go sign a 2nd tier guy if you think that'll boost AA and the 2nd lines production.
Wings don't have to force a younger player up and stall/stagnate development.
I think that they are trying to guide Veleno down a development path that will establish the defensive mindset of Bergeron or O’Reilly. Just basing that off how he’s been deployed in GR while watching from afar. Veleno is one of those guys who I think the skill is definitely there, and it will shine in the right moments, but right now it’s more about being battle hardened, being a force in his own end.
Steve Yzerlland
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FireBird71
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Henkka
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BinCookin
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Granlund too old. Anyone above 25 is too old. This is why Nyquist and Tatar are gone.
If we trade AA, its for someone age 21 or less.
If we trade AA, its for someone age 21 or less.
TheOtherOne
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Ok I'm not going to die on this hill but I'll defend it once just to clarify, although I know you're going to accuse me of cherrypicking stats and there is admittedly subjectivity involved.
Since '08/'09:
- In G/GP AA is #5 behind Hossa, Franzen, Datsyuk, Mantha. For context, the first 3 got to play with each other on a much better team, and the latter got to play typically with much better playmakers and a lot more PP time.
- In EVG in a single season, AA is #2 with 27 behind only Hossa, with #3 having only 23 (15% fewer).
Look, I already know your arguments. Of course I'm not saying he's better than any of those guys, and of course I understand that he has flaws in his game.
I probably shouldn't have said specifically second to Hossa because there's subjectivity in my argument. But he is clearly in elite company in goalscoring ability alone, ignoring other factors.
My main point to takeaway if you forget about the nitpicking is that AA isn't just a good goalscorer. What he has accomplished -- with little icetime compared to other 1st liners, and with mostly mediocre linemates (and terrible D for that matter) -- is rare, and the fact that so many fans are so quick to throw him under the bus has always annoyed me.
ridilon
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Number1RedWingsFan52
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Number1RedWingsFan52
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I wouldn't be in favor of this trade because as others have said it doesn't make much sense to trade AA for someone a couple of years older who's not substantially better or with more potential than AA.
I do think there's some downgrading of Granlund and upgrading of AA going on in here though. I'd argue that Granlund's career to age 25 was better than AA's up til now. Granlund's age 24 season he was 26-43-69 and a much more complete player. At some point we need to give up on this mythical upside AA is going to reach. For me personally, I believe last year was as good as it gets and he is what he is at this point.
I do think there's some downgrading of Granlund and upgrading of AA going on in here though. I'd argue that Granlund's career to age 25 was better than AA's up til now. Granlund's age 24 season he was 26-43-69 and a much more complete player. At some point we need to give up on this mythical upside AA is going to reach. For me personally, I believe last year was as good as it gets and he is what he is at this point.
