99 prior to 91

Oddbob

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Jan 21, 2016
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Mario Lemieux could have beaten 2 of Gretzky's greatest single season records - 92 goals, and 215 points.

How/when?

Well - in 1989 Lemieux hit a level that rivaled Gretzky's best. He had an insane season in 93, fantastic smythe performances in 91 and 92...and in 1995-1996 again played a full mostly healthy (pacing himself) season. The problem is - after 1989 and until 1996 - Lemieux was damaged goods. He had a litany of health concerns and injuries (back spasms) that hindered him playing at 100% effect, and certainly not 100% of the time. Tons of games and seasons missed, and i'd guess many of the games he did play he wasn't at 100%. And those are the years where "peak Lemieux", or Lemieux at his best, should have been.

Simply put - we didn't get a chance to see Peak, Healthy Lemieux do 2, 3 or 4 full healthy seasons to see what he could do, only 1989. Gretzky had about 7 of those. Easier to score a goal on 7 shots, than to score on one shot.

It doesn't mean Lemieux would for sure beat Gretzky's records of course - it just means that he probably could have made a run for both of them - flip a coin if it happens or not. In 1993 in particular he was pacing above both those marks.

Lemieux had back spasms isn't a thing or excuse to suggest he would have beaten Gretzky. Gretzky also had back issues after getting cross checked by Gary Suter in 1991, which was around where Gretzky started to slow down points wise. Lemieux hit 199, 1 time, Gretzky went over 200 4 times and also had another 183 pt season. I think if healthy Lemieux would have gone past Gretzky in goals and maybe even a decent margin, but Gretzky was still the better playmaker and assist getter, so I don't think he would have touched Gretzky in points.
 

The Panther

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Lemieux was never on pace to break any of Gretzky's records (except for short-handed goals in a season, which he did break). The Mario-maniacals need to give this a rest.

Mario started missing games due to back-issues in 1989-90. He had managed -- for the first and last time in his career -- to put together two, full, and awesome seasons in a row, at near-Gretzky peak level, in 1987-88 (got the scoring title because Wayne was injured, but the Pens missed the playoffs) and 1988-89. At this point, he was turning 24, had finished five seasons, and hadn't come close to a single Gretzky record of any note.

So, 1989-90... Mario was playing well in terms of consistency (games-scoring streak), but his scoring pace was already -- before the injury took him out -- well below his pace of the year before, and probably of the year before that, too (he was also somehow -18 in just 59 games, a year before the Pens won the Cup).

Anyway, Mario finally gets back to playing most of a full season in 1991-92, although his scoring pace again is well below his peak season. Wins his 2nd Cup.

In 1992-93, Mario did not play a full season, and this bears repeating -- he didn't play a full season. If he had played a full season, his scoring pace would have dropped for sure. Why? In the first 40 games, Lemieux had 104 points. A staggering total, to be sure, but that paces him (and he usually slowed, towards seasons' end) for 208 points in 80 games, which of course is the games that Gretzky played in his prime. 208 points would place Mario tied for third, behind Gretzky '86 and Gretzky '82. Oh, but since we're doing this by pace, we have to remember that Gretzky '84 (who was pacing for 240 points through 51 games) paced for 222 points (or 233 in the number of games played in 1992-93).

(It might also be mentioned that 1992-93 was the "easiest" season ever for top-line players to put up 100-point seasons. Pierre Turgeon had 132 points and wasn't in the top five.)

Mario's last full world-beating season with more-or-less most games played was 1995-96 (70 games played), which might be his greatest offensive season given that scoring was just starting to drop a bit... but then again, he was easily outscored at even strength by one of his teammates.


The Mario maniacals will go to town on the 1992-93 season, as usual. Thanks to Lemieux's coming back from injury just as the Pens started a 17-game win streak, his stats were inflated over that short period to make it look like he might break just one Gretzky record....! (In 4 more games played...!) (Except he didn't actually play those games, or break any records... and his pace immediately dropped in the playoffs, proving that there's no way he could have maintained that pace.)


Anyway, Lemieux could have scored 216 or whatever points once in his career and still nobody but Pens fans would consider him better than Gretzky. A few points here or there is irrelevant.

How many times did Gretzky play a more-or-less full season and then dominate in playoff run to the Finals?
- Five times
How many times did Mario do that?
- Once... sort of. (In 1991-92, he played 64 games -- same as Gretzky in '88, so fair enough -- though, he was only in fifth in Hart voting.)
How many times did Gretzky dominate scoring in an international best-on-best tournament and win that tournament?
- Four times (in a row)
How many times did Mario do that?
- Never (but we'll give him a pass for '87 when he was awesome...albeit with a lot of help from Wayne)
Who scored the fastest 1000 points?
- Gretzky
Who scored the second fastest 1000 points?
-Gretzky (I'm not making this up)

At some point, you gotta just let the guy who did it all be the best and leave it at that.

I've had Maniacals tell me that Lemieux was born with a spinal condition that limited him, so that's why it's not fair to compare his results to Gretzky, who of course was "lucky" to have good health. Lemieux may indeed have been born with a spinal condition, but, ya know, if you were an athlete born with a spinal condition and were susceptible to various injuries -- and didn't break any of the records -- maybe you're not the best guy ever...? Just a thought.
 

Bear of Bad News

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Please stop applying blanket epithets towards posters who support players other than the one who, oh by the way, is in your avatar and for whom you ceaselessly defend.

It will be considered flaming. Are we clear?
 
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bobholly39

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Mar 10, 2013
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Lemieux was never on pace to break any of Gretzky's records (except for short-handed goals in a season, which he did break). The Mario-maniacals need to give this a rest.

Mario started missing games due to back-issues in 1989-90. He had managed -- for the first and last time in his career -- to put together two, full, and awesome seasons in a row, at near-Gretzky peak level, in 1987-88 (got the scoring title because Wayne was injured, but the Pens missed the playoffs) and 1988-89. At this point, he was turning 24, had finished five seasons, and hadn't come close to a single Gretzky record of any note.

So, 1989-90... Mario was playing well in terms of consistency (games-scoring streak), but his scoring pace was already -- before the injury took him out -- well below his pace of the year before, and probably of the year before that, too (he was also somehow -18 in just 59 games, a year before the Pens won the Cup).

Anyway, Mario finally gets back to playing most of a full season in 1991-92, although his scoring pace again is well below his peak season. Wins his 2nd Cup.

In 1992-93, Mario did not play a full season, and this bears repeating -- he didn't play a full season. If he had played a full season, his scoring pace would have dropped for sure. Why? In the first 40 games, Lemieux had 104 points. A staggering total, to be sure, but that paces him (and he usually slowed, towards seasons' end) for 208 points in 80 games, which of course is the games that Gretzky played in his prime. 208 points would place Mario tied for third, behind Gretzky '86 and Gretzky '82. Oh, but since we're doing this by pace, we have to remember that Gretzky '84 (who was pacing for 240 points through 51 games) paced for 222 points (or 233 in the number of games played in 1992-93).

(It might also be mentioned that 1992-93 was the "easiest" season ever for top-line players to put up 100-point seasons. Pierre Turgeon had 132 points and wasn't in the top five.)

Mario's last full world-beating season with more-or-less most games played was 1995-96 (70 games played), which might be his greatest offensive season given that scoring was just starting to drop a bit... but then again, he was easily outscored at even strength by one of his teammates.


The Mario maniacals will go to town on the 1992-93 season, as usual. Thanks to Lemieux's coming back from injury just as the Pens started a 17-game win streak, his stats were inflated over that short period to make it look like he might break just one Gretzky record....! (In 4 more games played...!) (Except he didn't actually play those games, or break any records... and his pace immediately dropped in the playoffs, proving that there's no way he could have maintained that pace.)


Anyway, Lemieux could have scored 216 or whatever points once in his career and still nobody but Pens fans would consider him better than Gretzky. A few points here or there is irrelevant.

How many times did Gretzky play a more-or-less full season and then dominate in playoff run to the Finals?
- Five times
How many times did Mario do that?
- Once... sort of. (In 1991-92, he played 64 games -- same as Gretzky in '88, so fair enough -- though, he was only in fifth in Hart voting.)
How many times did Gretzky dominate scoring in an international best-on-best tournament and win that tournament?
- Four times (in a row)
How many times did Mario do that?
- Never (but we'll give him a pass for '87 when he was awesome...albeit with a lot of help from Wayne)
Who scored the fastest 1000 points?
- Gretzky
Who scored the second fastest 1000 points?
-Gretzky (I'm not making this up)

At some point, you gotta just let the guy who did it all be the best and leave it at that.

I've had Maniacals tell me that Lemieux was born with a spinal condition that limited him, so that's why it's not fair to compare his results to Gretzky, who of course was "lucky" to have good health. Lemieux may indeed have been born with a spinal condition, but, ya know, if you were an athlete born with a spinal condition and were susceptible to various injuries -- and didn't break any of the records -- maybe you're not the best guy ever...? Just a thought.

You're always fun to respond to...

"Anyway, Lemieux could have scored 216 or whatever points once in his career and still nobody but Pens fans would consider him better than Gretzky"

There's a VERY vast difference between saying Lemieux could have scored 216 points and between saying "Lemiuex > Gretzky all time".

Lemieux could have scored 216 points.
No - that alone wouldn't mean Lemieux > Gretzky all time.

But i'm glad to see you acknowledge that Lemieux could have scored 216 points. He could have scored 93 goals too btw.

Next time you dispute that - i'll be sure to link this post.
 

Midnight Judges

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Era adjustments are not insults, and people do them all the time for cross-era comparisons.

Era adjustments are indeed flawed, it's just that they are often less flawed than comparing unadjusted numbers.
 

brachyrynchos

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Apr 10, 2017
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I haven't checked Gretzky's non -NHL stats from 1979/80-'90/91 yet, but here's something I looked into. *game logs on Hockey Reference, any errors aren't necessarily theirs...my math).
Okay, so from 1979/80 to the end of the '91 season, Wayne Gretzky played 925 regular season games and had at least a point in 834 of them. 834/925
Playoffs, 150 games (32 rounds), he had a point or more in 127 of them. 15 of those 32 rounds he was on the scoreboard every game.

Here is more of a breakdown by season, games with a point/games played, regular season and playoffs:
'79/80: 62/79
:2/3 (PHI)
'80/81: 67/80
:9/9 (3/3 vs MTL, 6/6 vs NYI)
'81/82: 72/80
:5/5 (L.A.)
'82/83: 76/80.
:14/16 (3/3 vs WPG, 4/5 vs CGY, 4/4 vs CHI, 3/4 vs NYI)
'83/84: 71/74
:15/19 (2/3 vs WPG, 6/7 vs CGY, 4/4 vs MIN, 3/5 vs NYI)
'84/85 : 75/80
:16/18 (3/3 vs L.A., 4/4 vs WPG, 5/6 vs CHI, 4/5 vs PHI)
'85/86: 77/80
:10/10 (3/3 vs VAN, 7/7 vs CGY)
'86/87: 69/79
:16/21 (4/5 vs L.A., 3/4 vs WPG, 2/5 vs DET, 7/7 vs PHI)
'87/88: 58/64
:18/19 (4/5 vs WPG, 4/4 vs CGY, 5/5 vs DET,5/5 vs BOS including game 4 blackout)
'88/89: 71/78
:10/11 (6/7 vs EDM, 4/4 vs CGY)
'89/90: 63/73
:4/7 (3/4 vs CGY, 1/3 vs EDM)
'90/91: 73/78
:8/12 (5/6 vs VAN, 3/6 vs EDM).

1075 total games played by Gretzky, he had at least a point in 961 of them.
 

brachyrynchos

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Apr 10, 2017
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Here's a breakdown of Gretzky's games with an assist/games played, regular season and playoffs:
'79/80: 55/79
1/3 (vs PHI)
'80/81: 67/80
7/9 (3/3 vs MTL, 4/6 vs NYI)
'81/82: 64/80
4/5 (vs LA)
'82/83: 64/80
14/16 (3/3 vs WPG, 4/5 vs CGY, 4/4 vs CHI, 3/4 vs NYI)
'83/84: 58/74
14/19 (2/3 vs WPG, 6/7 vs CGY, 4/4 vs MIN, 2/5 vs NYI)
'84/85: 67/80
13/18 (3/3 vs LA, 3/4 vs WPG, 5/6 vs CHI, 2/5 vs PHI)
'85/86: 71/80
8/10 (2/3 vs VAN, 6/7 vs CGY)
'86/87: 60/79
14/21 (4/5 vs LA, 2/4 vs WPG, 2/5 vs DET, 6/7 vs PHI)
'87/88: 53/64
13/19 (4/5 vs WPG, 1/4 vs CGY, 4/5 vs DET, 4/5 vs BOS)
'88/89: 57/78
10/11 (6/7 vs EDM, 4/4 vs CGY)
'89/90: 56/73
3/7 (3/4 vs CGY, 0/3 vs EDM)
'90/91: 67/78
7/12 (4/6 vs VAN, 3/6 vs EDM)

Regular season: 1424 assists, 925 games, Gretzky had at least 1 assist in 739 of those games. 739/925
Playoffs: 206 assists, 150 games, he had an assist in 108. 108/150
Total games: 1075, Gretzky had an assist in 847 of those games.
 

squaleca

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Jan 3, 2017
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wayne avg 60 goals per season prior to 91 after 91 he avg 18 goals for 8 seasons

from 81-86 in 5 seaons his total points would put him 69th all time a merely 700 points behind marios 17 year career totals

gretz 205 in 74 points is still statstically the most dominant season by anyone player 227 point pace over 82 games
 

squaleca

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Jan 3, 2017
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Mario could have beat Gretzky's single season records... most likely the 92 goals mark, doubtful he ever would have hit 164 assists though, and 216 points is a big stretch. (he didn't).

However, I don't think he ever had any chance to beat Gretzky's career records, he just had way too many health problems... Gretzky played a style of game that allowed him to avoid injuries, and had he truly wanted, he could have played well into the 2000's and put up another 500+ points as a "collector", but I don't think anything would have been more fitting than #99 retiring in 1999, being inducted into the HHOF in 1999 too...

did you just say doubtfult that he would ever hit 164 assists wow
 

squaleca

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
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Wayne Gretzky 81-82 to 86-87 (6 seasons): - Totals: 473gp - 437g - 782a - 1219pts - Averages: 79gp - 73g - 130a - 203pts - Average margin of victory in scoring race: 73pts
that puts him 49th all time tied with jean B and 500 points behind mario's 17 year totals
 

Sinistril

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Oct 26, 2008
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If you're going to make an "analysis" based on descriptive statistics, at least get the descriptions correct. I also don't understand the point you are trying to make? This thread has the clarity of a brick wall.

I do suggest you listen to these words of advice OP:
 

bobbyking

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May 29, 2018
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I haven't checked Gretzky's non -NHL stats from 1979/80-'90/91 yet, but here's something I looked into. *game logs on Hockey Reference, any errors aren't necessarily theirs...my math).
Okay, so from 1979/80 to the end of the '91 season, Wayne Gretzky played 925 regular season games and had at least a point in 834 of them. 834/925
Playoffs, 150 games (32 rounds), he had a point or more in 127 of them. 15 of those 32 rounds he was on the scoreboard every game.

Here is more of a breakdown by season, games with a point/games played, regular season and playoffs:
'79/80: 62/79
:2/3 (PHI)
'80/81: 67/80
:9/9 (3/3 vs MTL, 6/6 vs NYI)
'81/82: 72/80
:5/5 (L.A.)
'82/83: 76/80.
:14/16 (3/3 vs WPG, 4/5 vs CGY, 4/4 vs CHI, 3/4 vs NYI)
'83/84: 71/74
:15/19 (2/3 vs WPG, 6/7 vs CGY, 4/4 vs MIN, 3/5 vs NYI)
'84/85 : 75/80
:16/18 (3/3 vs L.A., 4/4 vs WPG, 5/6 vs CHI, 4/5 vs PHI)
'85/86: 77/80
:10/10 (3/3 vs VAN, 7/7 vs CGY)
'86/87: 69/79
:16/21 (4/5 vs L.A., 3/4 vs WPG, 2/5 vs DET, 7/7 vs PHI)
'87/88: 58/64
:18/19 (4/5 vs WPG, 4/4 vs CGY, 5/5 vs DET,5/5 vs BOS including game 4 blackout)
'88/89: 71/78
:10/11 (6/7 vs EDM, 4/4 vs CGY)
'89/90: 63/73
:4/7 (3/4 vs CGY, 1/3 vs EDM)
'90/91: 73/78
:8/12 (5/6 vs VAN, 3/6 vs EDM).

1075 total games played by Gretzky, he had at least a point in 961 of them.
834/925 ?? good lord , that seems made up it's so farfetched
 
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cowboy82nd

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ive also added .0038 points per game to marios ppg total x that by number of games played by Wanye Gretzky and ironically Mario ties Gretzky in Career points. hmm interesting that somehow by mario not having Cancer he beats all of Wayne's Records. Well statistacally Waynes ppg dropped from prime 2.3156 to 1.912 career ending. but will give Mario the benefit of the doubt and say that had he not had cancer he would have turned into Tom Brady increased his totals even further .0038 points per game and played the same # of games and tied all of waynes Records.

sorry i just need to back up my statment with facts as apposed to these ludicrous comments about 66 breaking all of 99's records with opinions based on vivid imaginations as apposed to factual numbers

Now of course the oilers were stacked yea i love all those Messier and Gretzky on the ice at the sametime highlights

Kurri vs Jagr interesting debate?

Are you saying that if Mario didn't catch cancer, he would be known as a cheater? That's a horrible statement to make!
 

HurricaneFanatic

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Jan 16, 2020
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Mario could have beat Gretzky's single season records... most likely the 92 goals mark, doubtful he ever would have hit 164 assists though, and 216 points is a big stretch. (he didn't).

However, I don't think he ever had any chance to beat Gretzky's career records, he just had way too many health problems... Gretzky played a style of game that allowed him to avoid injuries, and had he truly wanted, he could have played well into the 2000's and put up another 500+ points as a "collector", but I don't think anything would have been more fitting than #99 retiring in 1999, being inducted into the HHOF in 1999 too...
I disagree with this slightly. He had a serious back injury int he early 90's that hurt the rest of his career. Also by 1999 Gretzky was a shell of himself, he retired at exactly the right time if not a season too late. I wish he had gotten to 900 goals, but only 9 in 1999 was pretty bad.
No doubt Gretzky's prime was fairly short, and he fell off goal scoring quick. Was it the injury or just back then, 30 and over was considered old in Hockey? WOuld have been interesting to see his totals if not for the Suter hit. I bet it irks him a little he didn't get to 900 goals, I mean you are just 6 shy.

I still don't thin Ovi gets there, but i am a Gretzky homer I admit.
 
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Fan 4 Life

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I disagree with this slightly. He had a serious back injury int he early 90's that hurt the rest of his career. Also by 1999 Gretzky was a shell of himself, he retired at exactly the right time if not a season too late. I wish he had gotten to 900 goals, but only 9 in 1999 was pretty bad.
No doubt Gretzky's prime was fairly short, and he fell off goal scoring quick. Was it the injury or just back then, 30 and over was considered old in Hockey? WOuld have been interesting to see his totals if not for the Suter hit. I bet it irks him a little he didn't get to 900 goals, I mean you are just 6 shy.

I still don't thin Ovi gets there, but i am a Gretzky homer I admit.

I always talk about how I remember watching Gretzky in his final year and thinking how he had held on for too long. How he was no longer a good player and that he should have retired earlier.

Then I remember he was top 5 in assists/game and lead his team in scoring that final year. We were so spoiled by watching a Gretzky that made the NHL look like Peewee that we couldn't appreciate he was still one of the games top players in his final season.
 

Senor Catface

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I always talk about how I remember watching Gretzky in his final year and thinking how he had held on for too long. How he was no longer a good player and that he should have retired earlier.

Then I remember he was top 5 in assists/game and lead his team in scoring that final year. We were so spoiled by watching a Gretzky that made the NHL look like Peewee that we couldn't appreciate he was still one of the games top players in his final season.

Yeah, in his second to last season, at 36, he led his team in points by 28.
 
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Dipsy Doodle

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Mario started missing games due to back-issues in 1989-90. He had managed -- for the first and last time in his career -- to put together two, full, and awesome seasons in a row, at near-Gretzky peak level, in 1987-88 (got the scoring title because Wayne was injured, but the Pens missed the playoffs) and 1988-89. At this point, he was turning 24, had finished five seasons, and hadn't come close to a single Gretzky record of any note.

Even though I agree Gretzky had the greater career, do you honestly think a supporting offensive cast of Quinn, Cunneyworth, Ruskowski, and Bodger is remotely comparable to Messier, Kurri, Anderson, and Coffey?

Lemieux's numbers exploded when the Pens finally got him someone to play with in Coffey.
 

The Panther

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Even though I agree Gretzky had the greater career, do you honestly think a supporting offensive cast of Quinn, Cunneyworth, Ruskowski, and Bodger is remotely comparable to Messier, Kurri, Anderson, and Coffey?

Lemieux's numbers exploded when the Pens finally got him someone to play with in Coffey.
It's true that Gretzky's team (from 1980 to 1987 or so) was much better constructed and smartly developed than the Eddie Johnston (lol!) Penguins of Mario's first five or so seasons.

But there are simple points of comparison, if team-strength is your big thing:

1) Compare Wayne's first 2 NHL seasons to Mario's first 2 NHL seasons
These are very comparable in terms of team strength. In fact, I think the Pens were stronger than Edmonton in each player's first two seasons, with a comparable or better supporting cast (remember the Oilers entered the NHL in 1979 with Gretzky and basically nothing else). Pens had a 50-goal scorer (Bullard), and some established players, albeit not a lot of great ones. So, the numbers comparison:

Wayne
159GP: 106G + 195A = 301 PTS (+55)
NHL scoring rank = 1st PTS, 1st PPG
ES/SH points = 206
Mario
152 GP: 91G + 150A = 241 PTS (-41)
NHL scoring rank = 4th PTS, 4th PPG
ES/SH points = 142

Bear in mind the size difference between Gretzky and Lemieux, and that Lemieux was slightly older than Gretzky in these two seasons. And overall scoring levels were higher in Mario's first two seasons than Wayne's first two seasons (Mario was also told by his coach, in 1984, that he didn't have to play any defense). So, if Mario was Wayne's equal in on-ice performance, why doesn't this show up in the first two seasons? 60 more points scored by Gretzky is a lot. But what's really notable is how Wayne was overall succeeding, and Mario getting destroyed, at even strength. Mario has all the evident advantages here (age, size, team, expectations [none], scoring levels) and comes out WAY behind.


2) Compare Wayne's "stacked team" seasons to Mario's "stacked team" seasons
Of course, one can simply argue that Lemieux peaked later than Gretzky, so the first two seasons comparison isn't fair to Mario (even though Gretzky hadn't peaked in his first two seasons, either). Right, so then let's compare their seasons when they were each on "stacked" teams, rich in high-level players, and when both were in their primes (the sample size is larger for Wayne, which, again, should favor Mario in this comparison).

There's some subjectivity in which seasons/teams are fair game for comparison, but I'll try:
-- For Gretzky, let's take 1981-82 all the way through 1987-88. For six of these seven seasons, Gretzky is playing with Messier (though they rarely combined for goals), Kurri, Anderson, and Coffey -- all future Hall of Famers. Kurri and Coffey hadn't yet reached their peaks in 1981-82, but they were good by then. He also also had two seasons with Tikkanen on his line, two seasons with Linseman as teammate, etc.
-- For Lemieux, I'm not sure I should include 1988-89 or not. I guess I will: the Cup-era supporting cast wasn't in place yet, but it's one of Mario's most dominant seasons and the Pens scored a lot of goals, and had four 90+ point scorers. So, we'll take that season and extend it all the way to 1995-96. (Of course, Mario missed much of 1993-94, and all of 1995.) In these six or seven seasons, Mario skated with Jagr (five seasons), Stevens (five seasons as impact player), Coffey (three seasons), Recchi (three-and-half seasons), Murphy (four seasons), Mullen (four seasons), Francis (four seasons), Tocchet (two seasons), and Nedved / Sandstrom / Zubov (about one season each).

Wayne
537GP: 477G + 891A = 1368 PTS (+498)
NHL scoring rank = 1st PTS (73% higher than the #2 guy), 1st PPG (almost 1.00 PPG over the #2 guy)
Hockey Ref. "adjusted" points = 2.04 PPG
Mario
377 GP: 348G + 508A = 856 PTS (+121)
NHL scoring rank = 2nd PTS (to Gretzky), 1st PPG (almost 0.6 over the #2, Gretzky, and 0.83 over the #3, Yzerman)
Hockey Ref. "adjusted" points = 1.97 PPG

So, again, though Lemieux is, to put it mildly, now doing extremely well in all areas, Gretzky's numbers are still more impressive. And, again, his even strength numbers are far more impressive. (If we projected these peak years of Lemieux's to Gretzky's 537 games, he'd come out to around +172, a whopping -226 compared to Wayne.) Then, add in consistency (Lemieux missed a bunch of games and a whole season), international hockey (Gretzky led four Canada-Cups in a row in scoring), long playoff runs (five for Wayne in this period, two for Mario), etc., etc.

The one area in which Lemieux has a clear advantage over Gretzky, scoring-wise, is production past age 30 (or, Gretzky's production after September 1991). But even here, it's not as big a difference as it at first appears: In the season in which Lemieux was 31, his production fell off by about 35-40 points from the year before, a similar drop as Gretzky from 1990-91 (age 29-30) to 1991-92 (age 30-31). Of course, in Lemieux's case, there's the remarkable 'comeback' in late 2000 that led to incredible run... but, to temper it a bit, it was only 43 games. Other than that, we never saw him regain the full-season form he had up to spring 1996 (aged 30).
Lemieux's numbers exploded when the Pens finally got him someone to play with in Coffey.
Yes and no. Actually, in 1987-88, Lemieux had already scored 37 points in 18 games before Coffey arrived. So, his pace after Coffey didn't change, that season.

Both of these players could score 140 to 160 points with average to garbage-level teammates in their primes, but I think one slight difference between them is that I think Lemieux could do more by himself, whereas Gretzky could do more with teammates in general. As I think I pointed out earlier in the thread, Mario's production did not increase as the Pens were getting better players in 1990-91 or 1991-92 (or 1993-94). In fact, it decreased from 1988-89 and even 1987-88. Basically, Lemieux was going to put up big numbers regardless of who he was playing with because he was such a powerful individual player at his peak. Gretzky, by contrast, wasn't the kind of player who beat you by one-on-one moves and doing it alone. But Gretzky could make all of his teammates on the ice (Randy Gregg, Bob Kudelski) into very dangerous players because he could somewhat control the pace and the movement of the 5-man flows on the ice.

I think this is why Gretzky's even-strength numbers are so much better than Lemieux's not only in the first two seasons, but when each played on stacked teams. When Gretzky was on the ice (in his prime, and maybe the first three years in L.A.), all the Oilers / Kings on the ice became opportunistic scorers and were dangerous players, but I think when Lemieux was on the ice, he himself was mainly the threat, alone. (I'm not saying that Lemieux didn't elevate linemates and so on -- see Warren Young and Rob Brown -- but merely that Gretzky's impact in this regard was greater and more consistent, regardless of who he was on the ice with.)

Mario's game was different by 1996-97 and especially after his late 2000 comeback. He was slower, of course, and couldn't do as much by himself. His advantage over Gretzky at a comparable age (35, 36) was that he came back to play with the best player (Jagr) in the NHL at that moment (Gretzky was stuck with Bruce Driver in New York at that age).
 

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